Shaolin Do?

[Radhnoti]

zen_hydra, I'm in south east KY.

ecw1701, no problem at all. I had hoped that might be the case.

I think it's great that you guys can duck away from the politics. My class seems to run into it headlong pretty consistantly. The only reason I know anything about the whole gi vs. traditional thing is my sifu asked once if wearing a traditional outfit (we had recently started teaching the "internal only" curriculum) would be alright in front of GM Sin. Senior Master Leonard was QUITE firm in his denial... Only allowing that students exclusively in the internal classes could do so.
Add to this the fact that GM Sin's brother Hiang teaches quite a bit in this area and perhaps there's a bit more political tension around these parts.
eneref, all the pics I've seen show the instructors at Grandmaster Ie's school wearing traditional outfits and all the students wearing a gi.
I have a few pictures of GM Sin as a boy wearing a gi, also one picture with GM Ie sitting has GM Sin's brother Hiang standing next to him wearing a gi. Master Hiang (GM of his own system now) has a bird-like patch on his gi...and I believe that was his area of specialization. The picture I have of GM Sin (breaking a huge woodblock) shows that he also has a patch on the upper left front of his gi, I can't tell what it is but wouldn't be surprised to hear it is a snake. I wonder if that was the norm at GM Ie's school? To wear a patch of the animal/area you decided to specialize your learning in?

I'd be more than willing to ignore the politics, if I could just get a bit more of the HISTORY. Even if the whole Su Kong thing is bunk, I would guarantee GM Ie's story would be fascinating.

 

[eneref]

They did away with the whole patch thing, too, here. Not sure why, but I think that was a marketing decision more than anything else. They didn't want to look like your typical Joe Corley Karate school where kids get patches for achievements and such.

I'll bet the politics in that area is interesting with the Hiang The' and the Sin The' element going on all around. I've often found it interesting that Hiang ended up settling so close to the epicenter of his brother's influence.

There had been talks of our next trip being to visit the Chung Yen instructors in Indonesia (although, we would be meeting them in Bali, since the anti-American element in Muslim Indonesia is pretty high), but with the war and SARS and some political things here and there, it seems unlikely that will be the case.

Even so, I'm not sure if I'd get the full history through tranlation from GM The'. It's a shame, really. There's a good deal I'd like to learn about the origins of the art that poltics and language may get very much in the way of.

 

[TranSendze]

I studied at Shaolin-Do for about 5 months. The teachers where very friendly, and the class had a good atmosphere (although a bit crowded).

I stopped going because I doubted the legitimacy of the school’s history, and therefore the school’s art. I have since trained in 7 star praying mantis, and my concerns about Shaolin-Do have been confirmed. In comparison to what I am learning now Shaolin-Do taught none of the basics(footwork for example) and the physical conditioning is much more extremein comparison with Shaolin-Do. Not to be mean, but some of the black belts at my Shaolin-Do school were overweight and would tire while teaching a low level class. You can’t learn or do kung fu without being in top shape. The fact that they were “promoted” to that level while in that physical condition says something about Shaolin-Do.

My sifu has detailed knowledge about every form he teaches us and understands the application of every step of the forms that we learn. Shaolin-Do has the habit of letting black belts teach the classes. Every time a black belt would show me a form it would be different. Even when I saw the school’s Master show a form he would forget parts of it. What this says to me is that they don’t really know what they are doing. Anyone can learn how to fight, I am not saying the Shaolin-Do guys can’t fight, but I sure wouldn’t say that they have a good system for learning kung fu.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Sorry to be a little mean, but I am upset that people who have such a desire and determination to learn kung fu are wasting their time at Shaolin-Do. I feel that the school is cheating them out of the kung fu experience and their money.

 

[ecw1701]

It would seem to me, the only statement that can be made is that you went to a poor Shaolin-Do school, and have found a better 7 Star Mantis teacher. A more realistic statement is you didn't agree with the way the SD school was run, and the Mantis school is more appealing to you.
I could every easily offer the same criticism to you, saying now that you've specialized in Mantis you will never know the high kicks of the China Hand system, evasive footwork of Pa Kua, or the deceptive body posturing and acrobatics of Drunken Style. And that I'll be a 'better' martial artist because I *will* learn Praying Mantis Kung Fu (I happen to know my Master has intricate knowledge of 12 Mantis forms).
But I would not make such statements.
As I said before, there are good and bad schools, and whether or not to specialize is up to the individual. I personally would never dream of only taking 7 Star Mantis, I would be driven crazy by thoughts of what I was missing. Does this mean I don't respect Mantis practioners? Not at all. I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who dilligently trains in their chosen art.
I will say this though: ANY school in ANY system will have a spectrum of physical capability. There are people in my school who appear old out of shape but can bury me (a fit 25 year old) in any physical contest. And there are those who I can 'out do' as well. It is irrelevant. The real reason these people may have been moved up in ranks despite their physical conditioning, is the instructor realized they were doing the absolute best they could possibly do, and giving it their all, which is the only thing any real instructor can ask from their students.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Yea the SD school around here sucks. I know some guys that go there and man I hope they never get into a confrontation. Does that mean that the school is bad? No. But I went there and well yes it's bad. Does that mean that all SD schools are bad? No. As with any martial art there are good and bad instructors. My organization simply kicks the bad ones out. Hehe. Good luck all of you SD guys.

 

[eneref]

5 months is an impressively short time to evaluate an entire style and its merits and faults.

Does this mean you might have learned more had you stayed? No. Not likely. 5 months appears to be the interest drop-off rate for all martial artists at a school... where they either decide they want to stay or decide they want to leave. Likely, had you stayed, even if the teaching had vastly improved, your interest would have been such that you wouldn't have noticed.

As a friend of mine is wont to say, "A fool will learn nothing from a wise man, but a wise man will learn much from a fool."

 

[TranSendze]

“ It would seem to me, the only statement that can be made is that you went to a poor Shaolin-Do school”

- I attended the North Austin Shaolin Do school.


“A more realistic statement is you didn't agree with the way the SD school was run”

- I was making comparisons between the two school in order to bring out Shaolin Do’s faults. By “run” I assume you mean the way the system is taught and not the business aspect. Please let me know if I got this wrong. I only have my experience to go by, and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking.



“you will never know the high kicks of the China Hand system, evasive footwork of Pa Kua, or the deceptive body posturing and acrobatics of Drunken Style. And that I'll be a 'better' martial artist because I *will* learn Praying Mantis Kung Fu”

- In this case I am going to assume that by “better” you mean your fighting abilities. I assert, and perhaps other can back this up or knock it down, that a person who spends his time mastering one style of kung fu will be a better fighter than someone who has dabbled in every style. Besides, unless you have no desire to master a style, how many styles do you think you can master in your lifetime?



“[Physical fitness] is irrelevant. The real reason these people may have been moved up in ranks despite their physical conditioning, is the instructor realized they were doing the absolute best they could possibly do, and giving it their all, which is the only thing any real instructor can ask from their students.”

- The reason that physical fitness is so important is because unless you are in top shape you are actually unable to do many of the kung fu forms. If you can’t do the forms how are you supposed to be able to pass the test that all styels of kung fu give? If the test that Shaolin-Do give are so easy that people with any level of physical fitness can pass them then what kind of test is Shaolin-Do giving? Easy test to pass students to make them happy so they can keep getting that $$. That’s what kind.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by TranSendze
- I was making comparisons between the two school in order to bring out Shaolin Do’s faults. By “run” I assume you mean the way the system is taught and not the business aspect. Please let me know if I got this wrong. I only have my experience to go by, and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking.

I think the point ecw1701 was making was that your experience is only with one school. The only thing it implies is that that specific school is lacking.

It means nothing about the art overall. The only way to judge whether the art is lacking overall would be to learn the entire art. In order to do that, you'd have to train with either the GM or with a lot of different SD instructors to get a feel for what the entire art has to offer as opposed to what a specific instructor has (or doesn't have) to offer.

Your experience is completely valid. And, based on your experience, it's completely valid for you to say, "I found this specific school/instructor to be lacking."

But to say that the art as a whole is lacking because of your experience with one school/instructor is like saying that all Porsche cars are lacking because you happened to have driven a lemon.

I don't know anything at all about the SD art so I'm not in a position to defend the art at all. I'm just making an objective observation on the past few posts in this thread

Mike

 

[eneref]

As for fitness, I agree that fitness plays a key role in your ability to perform some of the maneuvers.

However, this being said, I'm also of the opinion that any real training doesn't begin until black belt... and that's the fitness time. That's the beginning of when you REALLY start to be forced into shape in order to learn the real material.

In the 5 months you were there prior to that, you must have it it to what... green belt? There weren't even any real fitness exercises done before then. You didn't have any classes involving putting power into techniques... You likely only had rudimentary assistance on putting perfect root into your stances, as they were still teaching the stances (and it's your job to make them GOOD stances, not your intstructor's).

The fact that there might have been some out of shape people who made it to black belt in order to begin their real training says very little really. You were hardly around to see their level of fitness 2 years prior when they started, nor were you around to see if they improved massively within their first year.

In an art which is designed to take a minimum of 20 years to learn and a lifetime to master, your view of 5 months of it is hardly a telling tale that one can take seriously.

Now... you may be happier where you are now, and it may suit you better. This is fine... and the way it should be. However, this is hardly in any way reflective on the school you attended or the level of skill of those you saw. You barely even SAW them. 5 months is... simply... no time at all.

Just keep that in mind.

 

[BIGtiny]

I personally got disgusted when our teacher required everyone to donate $5.00 each to buy the grand master a new car for his birthday or face more "frog leaps" at our next training session. Regardless of the style its credibility or lineage etc, those tactics stink in any language.

-Bt :asian:

 

[ecw1701]

Clearly you have radically misinterpreted my statements, as your taking of my quotes out of context indicates.
I maintain, all your experience indicates is that your school was lacking, or AT BEST the first 5 months of your schools curriculum are lacking. If you choose to expand that to a broad generalization, so be it. I would love to hear what is lacking about my school, training, and teachers, but you can't do that. Why? Because you've never been there, met me, or my teachers. Hence you can only really say that your experience indicated otherwise. I on the other hand, feel justified in my statement that the system IS effective, based on years of training, observing teachers with with decades of training, and my own research of the subject. Of course, no matter what amount of substantiation I can provide, it is just my opinion as well.
If it makes you feel any better, I would make the same statements about 7 Star Mantis, based on what I've seen.
Also, you must have overlooked the part where I said "I would never make such a statement" about being a better martial artist, and the several lines between that and the next thing you cut out. I will say this though, something essentiall to understanding Shaolin-Do is the fact that it IS one system, merely a system with elements of other styles. As you move up in the ranks, you see how intimately interwoven the material really is. But I didn't see that within my first 5 months either.
And if taking elements from other styles is a negative, you may want to research the history of the development of 7 Star
http://www.mantiskungfu.com/HistoryofPrayingMantisKungfu.htm
And finally, you misinterpreted the fact that I said whether or not I was in worse shape than the other people in the class is irrelevant. Just within my school there are people who can perform every technique effortlessly, and those who can not perform a jumping inside outside smash kick to save their lives. This does not make them bad martial artists. If you are gifted to be able to perform every single 7 Star technique flawlessly, you should be VERY proud, and know that you are one of those lucky individuals who found the perfect art for them. Stick with it.
Oh, and one last thing: North Austin Shaolin Do was apparently voted the 'best program' by Austin Fit magazine 3 years in a row, so someone must like what they're doing....http://www.swshaolin.com/

 

[TranSendze]

eneref my interest in kung fu has not trailed off. I am still a student. How many months should someone stay at a school when its methods appear suspect?

I explained the problems that I had with Shaolin-Do and made comparisons between it and me new school. In what way does this post make me a fool? I did not evaluate the “entire style” of Shaolin-Do. I brought out specific points about Shaolin-Do with which I had a problem and gave my opinion that those problems are probably indicative of greater issues within the system.

If you do not agree with what I had to say then refute it, but do not attack me simple because you are upset with my position. Attack the position.

Pesilat, you are totally correct. Please view my previous comments from the position that I am only referring to my school and its instructors. However, I see nothing wrong with using heuristics to base my opinions on a system.

 

[eneref]

Originally posted by BIGtiny
I personally got disgusted when our teacher required everyone to donate $5.00 each to buy the grand master a new car for his birthday or face more "frog leaps" at our next training session. Regardless of the style its credibility or lineage etc, those tactics stink in any language.




Wow... wholly agreed. I'd have walked off the floor in disgust, and I hope you did. That's a "leave and don't look back" sort of scenario.... and I doubt Grand Master The' would have appreciated that students had to be threatened for their 'token of gratitude.' That's just pathetic.

 

[eneref]

Originally posted by TranSendze
eneref my interest in kung fu has not trailed off. I am still a student. How many months should someone stay at a school when its methods appear suspect?

I explained the problems that I had with Shaolin-Do and made comparisons between it and me new school. In what way does this post make me a fool? I did not evaluate the “entire styleEof Shaolin-Do. I brought out specific points about Shaolin-Do with which I had a problem and gave my opinion that those problems are probably indicative of greater issues within the system.

If you do not agree with what I had to say then refute it, but do not attack me simple because you are upset with my position. Attack the position.

Pesilat, you are totally correct. Please view my previous comments from the position that I am only referring to my school and its instructors. However, I see nothing wrong with using heuristics to base my opinions on a system.

"and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking"

That shows you have issue with the art... and that you're making this evaluation based on 5 months at one particular school. You can change your story from one block to the next if you'd like, but I'm just going on what you SAID.

I never said you were a fool. I merely said the wise man can learn from one. Don't take everything so personally. This is not a personal attack...

I also didn't say anything about your interest in Martial Arts. I merely said that you were right to leave when you did, as your interest in THAT particular art... or the way it was taught at that particular school were obviously waning, and even if you'd stayed longer to see if it got better, the fact that your interest was waning would have coloured your judgement.

I'm not entirely sure you're reading further than the first sentence of each paragraph here.... as you seem to be misconstruing a lot of things.

 

[Radhnoti]

BigTiny, that's kind of crazy. In KY we recently took up money to buy GM Sin a new car ,he was driving around in a tiny early 80's sub-compact and everyone was REALLY afraid that he'd break down somewhere. But, no one was forced to contribute. Maybe your instructor was feeling some pressure since GM Sin mentioned his KY transportation. BTW, they got him another sensible car...not like a luxury or sports car.

Anyway, I'd probably consider leaving were I you. My instructor has never forced a contribution to GM Sin, the only money of mine he's seen has come from a few test fees.

 

[TranSendze]

Ecw1701. I didn’t know Shaolin-DO was considered a complete system. Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you are any of the other Shaolin-Do practitioners, although I did know my comments would be inflammatory.


The Austin Fit magazine doesn’t measure a school kung fu excellence, just their work out routine. I didn’t think their daily work out routine was very rigorous. Their Sunday classes did kick my *** however.

 

[ecw1701]

No offense taken.
Forgive my tone in the previous posts, but I am defensive of my art, and love a good debate.
I just feel that no one benefits from mud slinging, no matter how common it has become. The point behind forums like this is so we can compare notes like civilized martial artists, which is exactly what is happening.
Good luck with the 7 Star, you've chosen an excellent style.

 

[BIGtiny]

Originally posted by Radhnoti

Anyway, I'd probably consider leaving were I you. [/B]

I did, I am currently training 7*M, and I am completely happy there, as well.

I am of the opinion that , in Austin anyways, the SD school does not focus enough on the basics, and their testing processes are lacking. In the time that I was there, I never once had any training in rooting, or structure, or power generation exercises etc. I did, however, get a great workout, got in better shape and learned that I loved kung fu. I certainly am not one who would discredit a style from 6 months of training, but I can compare my 6 months there with the 3 months that I have in at 7*M, and that is where my opinion is based from. Additionally, I also am of the opinion that SD (again in Austin) is mostly about collecting their monthly fees, crushing people under the weight of long contracts and charging people exorbitant fees for everything that they can. These types of tactics certainly sour people to the martial arts who might otherwise be completely happy with a newfound passion.

ecw1701, I don't say this to offend you, however, I don't think that slinging mud in one post (even to make a point) and saying in another that mudslinging is wrong is a very effective way to defend your art, again just my opinion. However, I would totally agree with you that comparing notes and a lively debate/ discussion makes us all better MA's. Certainly no matter what style, art or whatever we are all dedicated to that which makes us happy. Good luck in your training!
-Bt :asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

A good point to remember about all of the martial arts is, you only get out of them what you put into them. It is unfortunate that there are some instructors out there that poorly represent the Shaolin-Do system as a whole. Shaolin-Do is pretty wide spread across the US though, so it really is not too surprising that there are some bad apples out there. I attend the Shaolin-Do school in San Antonio, and though the fund-raiser for Grandmaster Sin's new car was mentioned it certainly wasn't mandatory (or even pressured), as a matter of fact, I didn't have any extra cash that I could contribute. I have had dealings with some of the folks at the North Austin school (the occasional seminar and tournament), and by-and-large they all seem like the kind of people that would never do that sort of thing. So it is all the more appalling to me that someone did this to TranSendze. I have met some students that conduct their training in a half-*** manner, and some like Sifu Lorenz (of the South Austin school) that take it too the other extreme (on his own he reputedly did one-legged frog jumps until he wore out most of the cartilage in his knees).

 

[TranSendze]

I think I should make it clear that the frog jumping thing seemed to me to be a joke by the Sifu. Don't think Bt meant you take that seriously. However I did get like three emails from him begging for money - and then more emails saying that he paid his share for the school and now needs to recoup it from us .. whatever.