47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Perhaps SD teaches Southern mantis
Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???
- Thread starter RRouuselot
- Start date
Nope, thats not Southern Mantis either.47MartialMan said:
Basically, from watching the videos, I would even go so far as to say that it didn't look like they had some of the core principels of kung fu or CMA at all.
7sm
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
The Southern that you have seen, how do you know if these are correct?
What? :idunno:47MartialMan said:
Again, watching all the videos, not just the mantis ones, you can see they ignore certain core principels which define CMA in general. That is why I have said what I have.
7sm
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
No. I mean have you seen all of Northern or Southern? (Not your own ssytem of mantis or the one that you study), how can you tell if others are not with other systems?
You have stated that you have seen Southern Videos, how do you know if these are correct (Not speaking of SD).
And, what is to determine the "authenticity" of any of it?. I keep relating this to "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu". Because their is a cornucopia of many out there that claim to have/teach "Authentic..." this or that.
Please, I beseech, do not get frustrated, I only desire to gather understanding of what anyone may say from opposing views. I am not taking sides, per SD. I am asking "as if" I was with SD.
I keep getting reports and commentary on SD all over. Other martial art acquaintences tell me other stories/information on them. How many techniques/substyles/terminology/ within their curriculum seem to be hastenly thrown together or pieced together. if so, are they conssited mixd or eclectic?. This is why I had paid them a visit. And, for the sake of their practitoners, I am posting simplistic questions and making pressing surreal questions, is what I came across from other SD ex-practitioners.
Woe, are the one remaining in believing that have something "authentic".
But, in retro-process, did SD actually state they teach authentic SD, or "some" methods, stance, principles? Or do they have anything, resembling mantis, that they call mantus? Are they calling their mantis "complete"?
And so, if SD is fictious with mantis, then their lineage may be as well. perhaps their recent Master/Sin Kwang Thé may have created this own thing. Even the pics of the GrandMasters, which are sketches seem surreal.
One thing I found disturbing with their main website is:
"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' However, this contradicts another section on the same site:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/index.shtml
.....to tournaments that they hold
You have stated that you have seen Southern Videos, how do you know if these are correct (Not speaking of SD).
And, what is to determine the "authenticity" of any of it?. I keep relating this to "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu". Because their is a cornucopia of many out there that claim to have/teach "Authentic..." this or that.
Please, I beseech, do not get frustrated, I only desire to gather understanding of what anyone may say from opposing views. I am not taking sides, per SD. I am asking "as if" I was with SD.
I keep getting reports and commentary on SD all over. Other martial art acquaintences tell me other stories/information on them. How many techniques/substyles/terminology/ within their curriculum seem to be hastenly thrown together or pieced together. if so, are they conssited mixd or eclectic?. This is why I had paid them a visit. And, for the sake of their practitoners, I am posting simplistic questions and making pressing surreal questions, is what I came across from other SD ex-practitioners.
Woe, are the one remaining in believing that have something "authentic".
But, in retro-process, did SD actually state they teach authentic SD, or "some" methods, stance, principles? Or do they have anything, resembling mantis, that they call mantus? Are they calling their mantis "complete"?
And so, if SD is fictious with mantis, then their lineage may be as well. perhaps their recent Master/Sin Kwang Thé may have created this own thing. Even the pics of the GrandMasters, which are sketches seem surreal.
One thing I found disturbing with their main website is:
"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' However, this contradicts another section on the same site:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/index.shtml
.....to tournaments that they hold
Black Tiger Fist
Green Belt
Many of Shaolin-Do sets are copied ,like the Tiger-Crane set. Others are just made up from somewhere without the actual styles theroy,principals,ideals,etc...InvisibleFist said:
I've studied several of the systems that Shaolin-Do claims to teach forms from ,the last of which is Black Tiger. Of the three known Black Tiger systems ,Hak Fu Muhn,Fu Jow Pai, and Shantung. Those Black Tiger forms and techniques don't have "ANYTHING" in common with any of those systems.
The movements are choppy at best and don't contain any of the Black Tiger core principals.
It sounds to me like 47MartialMan has a JKD/Kenpo/Kempo ideal about kung fu ,he wouldn't be the first ,but it's not CMA
You can't just take movements from a system or imitate a style and think you have the goods!
There is much more that makes a style or system.
You must have the "CORE" or you just have an imitation.
jeff
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
What if you have the core, but decide to eliminate, alter, add, generally change it?
brothershaw
Purple Belt
If you have the core but choose to change it?
Change it because you think you can make it better, or maybe your teacher showed it to you incorrectly, ?
Some things you have to take on faith however if you change the core you also change the entire system since often the higher levels are built on the core.
Whos to say the persons ho created the core know best but whos to say the persons changing the core know any better?
A beginner gets bored with the basics then as an intermediate or advanced student finds how the basics are the building blocks of everything, and practicing the basics makes everything else better.
Change it because you think you can make it better, or maybe your teacher showed it to you incorrectly, ?
Some things you have to take on faith however if you change the core you also change the entire system since often the higher levels are built on the core.
Whos to say the persons ho created the core know best but whos to say the persons changing the core know any better?
A beginner gets bored with the basics then as an intermediate or advanced student finds how the basics are the building blocks of everything, and practicing the basics makes everything else better.
I
InvisibleFist
Guest
First, I think its unfair to judge all SD by these videos. As we've seen that site took flak from the OTHER SDs because of the poor quality.
The core issue is well founded. However, many cirriculums use supplemental forms from other systems. Hung Gar, for example, incorporated Lau Gar kuen, after recoreographing it so that it had a Hung core.
My Hung Gar school's cirriculum also includes a mantis form (Fo Ching Kuen.).
The one SD practicioner on this board has opined that the CORE of SD is the bird forms...the others are supplemental.
Incidentally, I thought that the dragon and 8 drunken immortals on the site looked OK.
The core issue is well founded. However, many cirriculums use supplemental forms from other systems. Hung Gar, for example, incorporated Lau Gar kuen, after recoreographing it so that it had a Hung core.
My Hung Gar school's cirriculum also includes a mantis form (Fo Ching Kuen.).
The one SD practicioner on this board has opined that the CORE of SD is the bird forms...the others are supplemental.
Incidentally, I thought that the dragon and 8 drunken immortals on the site looked OK.
brothershaw
Purple Belt
Better yet, my experience with the chinese arts are they are very concept based as opposed to technique based generally speaking.
Whereas many styles teach various techniques from which you should learn the unifying concepts eventually, but if not at least you have a large bag of techniques.
The chinese arts teach you some techniques but also alot of concepts through various means and techniques are secondary.
Sort of learning math through practice problems as opposed to learning mathematical theory.
Any good teacher or style should not just give you what works, but how it works and why.
Whereas many styles teach various techniques from which you should learn the unifying concepts eventually, but if not at least you have a large bag of techniques.
The chinese arts teach you some techniques but also alot of concepts through various means and techniques are secondary.
Sort of learning math through practice problems as opposed to learning mathematical theory.
Any good teacher or style should not just give you what works, but how it works and why.
No they don't... bottom line.47MartialMan said:
Are you going to answer my question or ignore it?? Just tell us all if you plan on ignoring my open question or if you plan on continuing to talk in circles looking for a answer to a question that's not gonna happen...
This is my last response & waste of time in trying to talk to you. You apparently don't know when to stop so I am. I get further yelling at a tree than trying to talk to you.47MartialMan said:
I've seen... Taiji, Taiji Meihua, Meihua, Qixing, Liu He, Ba Bu & Wah Lum from the Northern branch of Mantis. They all share, use & practice the 12 keyword formula common to ALL Northern Praying mantis.
I've seen... Jook Lum & Chow Gar from the Southern branch of Mantis. They use none of the 12 keyword formula because it's not Northern mantis. They are based on a common Hakka ancestor art & they do resemble each other in many ways.
I've practiced the SD version of mantis... it is neither of the above.
Because when you get multiple people doing the same things who haven't trained together, like each other or get along doing & saying the SAME thing... what do you think?47MartialMan said:
What does this have to do with anything mentioned specifically about Mantis since this topic turned to Manits?? You get a couple of people (7*, me) saying it's not what it says it is, one of us (me) with first hand experience & you continue to try to say or twist words to something different??47MartialMan said:
No you don't desire understanding. You're a troll & I'm done playing with you. If you really wanted to understand, you would stop & listen to people who have experience as opposed to being petulant.47MartialMan said:
The world is the size of keyboard now. If somebody in SD wants to know or chooses to find out, they can Google it up. Don't confuse whatever your agenda is with public service for the people who don't want to know, don't care to know or just enjoy what they do there. But don't call a Chevy Cavalier in a trick kit a Ferrari... it's not.47MartialMan said:
No... woe to the ones who buy what they're told without the foresight to investigate on their own...47MartialMan said:
They stated they teach Praying Mantis from the Shaolin Temple in Henan. Guess what? Mantis isn't a Shaolin art from the Henan Temple. They call every thing they teach "Complete". To their credit, some of their stuff is, but that's not on the table & won't be.47MartialMan said:
Stranger things have happened.47MartialMan said:
And.... ??47MartialMan said:
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
What question?clfsean said:
Flatlander
Grandmaster
47MartialMan, I believe that clfsean is referring to this question:
clfsean said:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
I seem to remember, quite a while back when KFO was still up and running as a CMA oriented forum, that a concensus about Shaolin-Do was reached after discussion by both those who had trained in it and those who had observed it.
Sin The's background is suspect and unverifiable. Does this, by itself, imply that it is false? No. Does his trip to Shaolin legitimize his ties to the temple? In the minds of some, perhaps. There are those who believe Shaolin is dead, only a tourist oriented shell of its former self, and any claim by any person to true links to the temple are invalid.
Bottom line, any style that claims over 500 forms; claims to teach the "entire system" for Manits, Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, and other styles; claims it is too lethal for tournament competitions and then organizes its own tournaments; is simply raising entirely too many red flags for anyone but the most ignorant to sign up.
Maybe all Pintos won't explode from a rear end collision, but I'm not going to take the chance... If a thing looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is waterproof, there's a good chance it is exactly what it looks like...
I saw a Shaolin-Do class in Colorado about 15 years ago, and it was pathetic. The brown belts in the class were apparently practicing the fetal defense against multiple attackers, since the defender did little other than run to the corner and ball up on the floor to defend against his three attackers... I was definitely less than impressed.
Whatever. If folks want to train in an art that has little other than a fanciful, fantastic background story to support its claims, fine. Some sheeple, like it or not, are only into martial arts for the fantasy of it... They see themselves as adepts, aspirants to the mystical secrets of some martial temple. Whatever. Let them have their fantasy. It won't be us getting sued when they get their asses beaten in an alley somewhere... That "honor" will go to their so-called "masters."
Now back to training... Enjoy.
Sin The's background is suspect and unverifiable. Does this, by itself, imply that it is false? No. Does his trip to Shaolin legitimize his ties to the temple? In the minds of some, perhaps. There are those who believe Shaolin is dead, only a tourist oriented shell of its former self, and any claim by any person to true links to the temple are invalid.
Bottom line, any style that claims over 500 forms; claims to teach the "entire system" for Manits, Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, and other styles; claims it is too lethal for tournament competitions and then organizes its own tournaments; is simply raising entirely too many red flags for anyone but the most ignorant to sign up.
Maybe all Pintos won't explode from a rear end collision, but I'm not going to take the chance... If a thing looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is waterproof, there's a good chance it is exactly what it looks like...
I saw a Shaolin-Do class in Colorado about 15 years ago, and it was pathetic. The brown belts in the class were apparently practicing the fetal defense against multiple attackers, since the defender did little other than run to the corner and ball up on the floor to defend against his three attackers... I was definitely less than impressed.
Whatever. If folks want to train in an art that has little other than a fanciful, fantastic background story to support its claims, fine. Some sheeple, like it or not, are only into martial arts for the fantasy of it... They see themselves as adepts, aspirants to the mystical secrets of some martial temple. Whatever. Let them have their fantasy. It won't be us getting sued when they get their asses beaten in an alley somewhere... That "honor" will go to their so-called "masters."
Now back to training... Enjoy.
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Extremely well put/posted Matt.
I enjoyed reading that commentary.......kudos....
I enjoyed reading that commentary.......kudos....
47MartialMan
Master of Arts
Japanese, Korean, and Chinese martial arts, in that order. "In and out" and simo training.Flatlander said:
Presently, as for the past 34 years, a "Chinese Family Art" which none here would have heard of.
Its almost better not to answer a question than answering with ridiculously vague answers, or pseudo answers.47MartialMan said:
7sm
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
47MartialMan said:
Usually, when citing one's C.V., it is best to name the art and time spent in training with that particular art (and/or starting and ending dates, grades earned, etc.) rather than listing generic categories and amorphous time periods...
I think you'll find, 47MM, that claims like this will earn you no respect to speak of. If you've trained in an art nobody has heard of (as I do, at least most folks have never heard of it), simply name the art. Don't do your audience's thinking for them - let them say "I've never heard of that. What is it?" instead of saying "You'd never know what it is, so I won't bother naming it."
Just some constructive criticism. Take it for what it is worth...
