Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???

[7starmantis]

While fighting distance is important in mantis, its simply not a determining factor of the mantis system.

Wow, Help me understande this. Gin foon Mark must be wrong. He stressed this to us over and over. What is the determining factors of the Mantis? I though this was a principle of the mantis.

Once again you have taken and twisted what I said. I didn't say anything about Gin Foon Mark at all, niether did I say fighting distance wasn't worth being stressed, or that it isn't a principles of the mantis system. What I actually said was, "fighting distance is important in mantis". It is and worthy of being stressed, but your fighting distance is not going to determine if your following the mantis principels or not( at least to a point reasonable to most intellegent people).

ou, lou, tsai, kwa, tiao chin, peng ta, chan, nien, tieh, kao, chien shan, teng-nuo

Are these moves tech. decribe one for me. I may not know what you call it but that dose not mean I don't know the move.

No, these are principles, not techniques or "moves". Again, I can't explain the difference to you here. Principles are the "core" your hearing everyone talk about. Techniques or "moves" follow principles. Ou is basically hooking, but its not something I can explain via this medium, its something you have to see and feel.

If you have only 4 mantis forms, you can't seriously believe you cover every technqiue that a full mantis school would do you?

Nope never said we did. How many forms dose it take to understand the mantis style. 10, 20, 30, 300, or 1 ? I have said before according to Hiang The' and the letters that was wrote by his grandfather that the brothers leard from 4 other masters each having differnt styles. the Masters would only show what they thought the brothers needed. example: master Hiang is a master of the Tai Pang system from Lu Su Pong. He learned from other masters only what they thought would compliment the Tai pang System. Example if the mantis style had 18 forms they would learn the 2nd form, 6th form, 14th form and the 18th form. A better example of this so far almost all the differnt systems we have always have a trap. Ex. tiger trap, mantis trap, dragon trap, dagger trap, ect... Do all the movements look the same "no" each anamial has a differnt pricipal about how they trap becuase the mantis can't trap like a bird or tiger. All of our forms do have common moves in them however the way each system sets up a attack is all differnt.

Its not about the number of forms, but the understanding and folowing of principles. Most all mantis systems are similar and all follow the 12 keywords I listed above.

I ask what do you see in the mantis that dose not reflect the pricipals of the mantis you do. Better yet help me learn how to make SD mantis better. the last two post I have showed you our thinking behind the differnt systems. What's Yours. Or do you know? (don't mean that in a bad way, just asking. Maybe if you explain one of your tech. I could help you understand it?)

Its basically the lack of adhearance to sid principels and application of mantis techniques. I'm not sure what your asking. Do I know my thinking behind the mantis system? I'm not really sure what your asking.

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

7* I wont to under stand the principles of the mantis. With ou are refering to feeling. I SD mantis we have hooking tech. that use feel. the thought is you can feel your oppont move before you can see them move. We also work on sinsitivty training. this trianing is use differn in SD mantis that in the Southern Mantis that Gin Foon Mark show. however the principle is the same. In the Suthern Mantis you move in make hand to hand contact with your oppont then use feel. It has been said that once you move in the mantis dont quit untill the job is done. In the SD mantis you do the same however, the feeling you use is stronger. Ex. you may blitz your oppoint's gard with multible attacks using the arms in a downward hooking motion. After the opponit feels the pressure on the arms he will start resisting. Once you feel the resistance you release the pressure. If done right your oppont will kindly raise his arms leaveing you with a great shot to the head or body.

The reason I like the SD mantis to move in is because I have trouble using the Southern Mantis to move in when my oppont is throwing multible kicks.

 

[brothershaw]

I believe you are missing the point,
when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.
Perhaps sevenstar could define the principles and qualities that define the mantis he is learning?

I only read bits and pieces of this thread so excuse me if this has already been said

 

[7starmantis]

7* I wont to under stand the principles of the mantis. With ou are refering to feeling. I SD mantis we have hooking tech. that use feel. the thought is you can feel your oppont move before you can see them move. We also work on sinsitivty training. this trianing is use differn in SD mantis that in the Southern Mantis that Gin Foon Mark show. however the principle is the same. In the Suthern Mantis you move in make hand to hand contact with your oppont then use feel. It has been said that once you move in the mantis dont quit untill the job is done. In the SD mantis you do the same however, the feeling you use is stronger. Ex. you may blitz your oppoint's gard with multible attacks using the arms in a downward hooking motion. After the opponit feels the pressure on the arms he will start resisting. Once you feel the resistance you release the pressure. If done right your oppont will kindly raise his arms leaveing you with a great shot to the head or body.

The reason I like the SD mantis to move in is because I have trouble using the Southern Mantis to move in when my oppont is throwing multible kicks.

I'm having a hard time following your posts because of the spelling and grammer. I'm not trying to be funny or rude.

We simply disagree on what CMA is and how it is used. I'm not one that believes in the ability to "switch styles" while fighting and such. Feel is a huge principles that I dont think I will ever fully understand, but as of now I dont use feel with just my hands but rather my whole body. Contact is not restricted to the hands.

Actually, I'm not really here to debate the techniques of differing mantis systems, this thread is really about SD and I just simply feel that SD is missing alot in its application. Mantis sticks out to me because I study mantis myself, thats all. Watching the videos is the only exposure I really have to SD or SD's mantis "kata". Watching them, I saw no application, and no real understanding for what was happening in the form itself.

This thread is becoming quite circular and I dont mind the thread continuing if it stays on topic and is useful. Basically I think without training together, we can't really exchange much more than we allready have.

Possibly you could look at this link: http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm

And view the video in the first column named "Praying Mantis - Pick and play" and explain the form, piece by piece for me in application of what each technique is and how it is used?

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I believe you are missing the point,
when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.
Perhaps sevenstar could define the principles and qualities that define the mantis he is learning?

I only read bits and pieces of this thread so excuse me if this has already been said

Good post, yes you are correct. I have outlined the principles that define the mantis I'm learning with the 12 keyword formula.

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

brothershaw,
I have been asking him to do that. I agree that a style can be done without prinicples and at that point you are right it has no point. however, what are you refering to as prinicples is my question. shouldn't your movements be based around the prinicples? Let me do it this way. Tell me what is wrong and how it dose not fit with the prinicples of the mantis.

Mantis Prinicples:
1. Mantis uses feeling to fight.
2. Mantis keeps his center line protected
3. Mantis keep the arms extended from the body to move the oppont out of striking range.
4. Miantis fights close to his opponit, he is a inside fighter. (0-1 step away from opponit)
5. Mantis uses fast pinpointed strikes to vital point in the body.
6. Once the mantis has moved in they don't stop untill the fight is over.
7. the Mantis uses measuring tech to pinpoint pressure points in the body
8. Mantis uses short distance strikeing to decreasing the time his oppont has to react to the strike.
9. Mantis will strike and block at the same time.

theres 9 prinicples tear them apart. Just remember I ask you to state WHY? don't just put "No". I am willing to lisson and learn since I don't seem to be vary high up in rank according you all

 

[7starmantis]

This is some of what I'm talking about. This picture is from the video titled "Praying Mantis" His fingers are extended and open, his base foot is up on the toe (not rooted), his center is off balance and leaning back, his head is down (not looking ahead where the attacker would be), his guard hand is nowhere in sight, but if you watch the video is down by his stomach. The kick is obviously far beyond his natural abilities and a huge stretch to make.

These are the things that make me say what I have about these forms (sorry kata).

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

brothershaw,
I have been asking him to do that. I agree that a style can be done without prinicples and at that point you are right it has no point. however, what are you refering to as prinicples is my question. shouldn't your movements be based around the prinicples? Let me do it this way. Tell me what is wrong and how it dose not fit with the prinicples of the mantis.

Mantis Prinicples:
1. Mantis uses feeling to fight.
2. Mantis keeps his center line protected
3. Mantis keep the arms extended from the body to move the oppont out of striking range.
4. Miantis fights close to his opponit, he is a inside fighter. (0-1 step away from opponit)
5. Mantis uses fast pinpointed strikes to vital point in the body.
6. Once the mantis has moved in they don't stop untill the fight is over.
7. the Mantis uses measuring tech to pinpoint pressure points in the body
8. Mantis uses short distance strikeing to decreasing the time his oppont has to react to the strike.
9. Mantis will strike and block at the same time.

theres 9 prinicples tear them apart. Just remember I ask you to state WHY? don't just put "No". I am willing to lisson and learn since I don't seem to be vary high up in rank according you all

First, lets not put words in each others mouths. No one has said anything about your rank. If we are going to have an honest discussion it must be just that...honest.

Now, your list is a list of generalities from observance of the mantis system. They are not really principles. They are basically observances that can be recognized when seeing mantis kung fu. However, some of them are wrong even still.

1.) Thats a generality of all CMA. How does mantis use feeling to fight?
2.) Another mistaken observation. Keeping your centerline protected is simply not a principles of the mantis system. I guess you could argue that it is important in fighting, but its just not a principles of the mantis system.
3.) This is actually contradictory to mantis principles. Mantis principles teach to keep the arms close to the body. We use alot of yielding and colapsing techniques which involve bringing the arms close to the body. You can't break a joint with your body weight from an extended arm position. When yielding out of a chin na or some hold, mantis principles teach 100% of the time to move in close and bring the lock in towards the body. We also do not try to keep opponents out of reach, thats ridiculous, how would we hit them? We actually move in close, your #3 and #4 contradict each other.
4.) This contradicts your #3 principle. How can you push your opponent out of striking distance and fight in close? While fighting close is a characteristic of mantis kung fu its not really a principle. What is the principle behind fighting close?
5.) Another characteristic of watching mantis fighters, but dont most martial artist do this as well? Its not a principle of the mantis system, but a smart technique to use when fighting in general.
6.) This is a good observation of mantis kung fu, again however just an observation. Mantis is very relentless and non-stopping, but that isnt' started only after the fighter moves in. The principle is continuing throughout the fight from the very first situation to when you sit at home in your easy chair.
7.) I dont really even understand what this is talking about. What kind of measuring techniques? Again, we are back to talking about techniques, not principles. How do you measure and pinpoint a pressure point? If you dont know where the pressure points are, your most likely not going to make much use of them in a fight.
8.) This would seem correct from watching mantis kung fu, but its really not a principle of mantis. Short distance technqiues are used because there is only a short distance between you and your opponent, not to decrease his reaction time. While that may be a side-effect, its not the purpose. In fact, many times a reaction is what I'm looking for. His reaction will guide me right into an attack. Many technqiues are used to get a reaction such as a block in order to set up an attack.
9.) Again, a characteristic of mantis, not a principle. Why do we strike and block at the same time? That would be the principle. In fact, we may strike, block, kick, and unbalance an opponent all at the same time. Some of those things might not be seen, so that could be why you left them out. Still, we aer staying on techniques instead of principles. There are few blocks in mantis, most are used to redirect.

the problem I see is that you are only getting a surface understanding of mantis kung fu. Thats ok, I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't practice mantis kung fu to really understand it, but your stuck on techniques and visible characteristics instead of fighting principles. You claim to understand mantis kung fu when your only really getting an observational copy of mantis kung fu.

7sm

 

[CMack11]

when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.

I think this is the key point of the whole thing. I'm a relative beginner to mantis, but this just seems like common sense. Every class I go to, for the entire class, we work under mantis principles. The whole time. So even though Shaolin-Do mantis work might use a trapping hand and we might use a trapping hand, we are using ours based completetly on mantis principles. When we kick, we are taught to kick a very specific way. The mantis way. There are many similarities with many kicks, but then there are differences.

My sifu is a 7* mantis teacher. He has being doing it for 13 years. Our associate teacher has been doing mantis for 8 years. They have a very deep understanding of the fundamentals of 7* mantis principles, which translates into their instruction. So all of our instruction revolves around the mantis principles from Day 1.

EDIT: I wanted to include an example. One of the drills we did last night was dealing a 3-step sparring method (basically a block, grab, sweep). Our associate instructor kept correcting me on my blocking, because even though I was blocking the punch, I wasn't doing it 'the mantis way'. We went over where my hip should be, and where my arm should be in relation to my shoulder and my chest in order to yield properly to the strike. The proper yielding led to a better set-up for a variety of moves, and to paraphrase my instructor, it would be much more valuable when I was at a higher level because I would need the proper space between my arm and chest to avoid attacks, and to set up my own attacks better.


This is how every class is. Even though we are doing techniques, my sifu and all of our other instructors go to great lengths to make sure we have all of the little details down. We start learning every drill according to mantis principles starting with the first class. Learning to 'think like a mantis boxer'.

 

[sifu Adams]

3. Mantis keep the arms extended from the body to move the oppont out of striking range.
7. the Mantis uses measuring tech to pinpoint pressure points in the body

Both of these principals I learned from Grand Master Gin Foon Mark (5th gereation master of southern Mantis--been doing it for over 70 years) I will admit that I did not know these two principals untill after I met Master Mark but they fit veary will with the SD Mantis.

CMack11, I am guessing but I would say that your instructor told you the distance between you chest and arms was because if you have them to close into the body that you would get hit before you could block. When you extend them out your opponits punch will fall inches short and you will be able to use your forarms to redirect or block. this is what I ment in #3 and what was told to me by Master Mark.

As for the Mesuring tech-- example-- there is a Pressure point in the chest 3rd rib down three finger withs from the sternum. Most people that dose PP with just try to hit the point. In the Mantis I have learned, in both SD and SM, If you aim your little finger at the sternum and stick you first knuck out you have a chance at hitting the point. You can flip your hand palm up and hit the other side. A Better example it you block a left punch with your right hand from the inside out (palm up) your opponits arm will lead you right to his left temple.

7*, all differances aside. I think you are off on number 8, and I think you might wont to think about this. On advrage it take a 1/4 of a second to throw a punch, it also on advrage take your oppont a 1/4 of a second to react to your punch. this is all based of of a person drawing back and throwing a punch. In your mantis if your hands are on your opponits and you dont draw back you just advance forward and strike, you can stike within this 1/4 of a second time frame not allowing your oppont time to even think about the block. I have been on both sides of this. if your striking its fun, if you are blocking you get flustrated because you start blocking after they have already hit you.

I still haven't heard any one give me a example of a princapal that don't have anything to do with fighting or a tech. If you saying I must live the life of the Mantis I would dissagree, I don't think this is what you are saying. but a example of a princiapal would be nice.

Let me clear something up. If you think we learn a form in 3-6 months and never go back over it you are wrong. I work out 3 hours everyday. I have been for 15 years. I do my mantis forms at lease 3 times a week and when I do them I do nothing but mantis both SD and SM. I do all my forms this way. I spend 1 hour each day doing drills from the forms that i am working on that day. Now you might say I should spend all my time on the Mantis but I would tell you that I like the diversity of the differnant styles. I will agree that most in the SD don't put that much time in and that most will learn and put it on a shelf somewhere out of reach. I would say you probly have that in a lot of styles and that is why many talk bad about the SD system.

 

[47MartialMan]

I thought peng was to ward off, redirect, push? Or is it a chop/strike?

 

[CMack11]

CMack11, I am guessing but I would say that your instructor told you the distance between you chest and arms was because if you have them to close into the body that you would get hit before you could block. When you extend them out your opponits punch will fall inches short and you will be able to use your forarms to redirect or block. this is what I ment in #3 and what was told to me by Master Mark.

Not really. Part of it is because it's easier to move into a counter attack, and part of it is to prevent the other person from collapsing their elbow into your sternum.

Let me clear something up. If you think we learn a form in 3-6 months and never go back over it you are wrong. I work out 3 hours everyday. I have been for 15 years. I do my mantis forms at lease 3 times a week and when I do them I do nothing but mantis both SD and SM. I do all my forms this way. I spend 1 hour each day doing drills from the forms that i am working on that day. Now you might say I should spend all my time on the Mantis but I would tell you that I like the diversity of the differnant styles. I will agree that most in the SD don't put that much time in and that most will learn and put it on a shelf somewhere out of reach. I would say you probly have that in a lot of styles and that is why many talk bad about the SD system.

I've got nothing bad to say about SD. Different strokes for different folks. But if I take you, who works out 3 hours/day for 15 years working on a diversity of different styles, what % of that time is spent working on mantis? What about in a given week? How much time in a week do you work on your mantis?

My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis. This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion. Lots of layers. Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis. Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all. Just diffferent.

 

[47MartialMan]

My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis. This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion. Lots of layers. Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis. Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all. Just diffferent.


It means that it is more than different...it is as close to "authentic, then someone fusing it withe their stuff.

 

[sifu Adams]

My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis. This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion. Lots of layers. Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis. Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all. Just diffferent

I agree, with more indepth understanding, however I don't think anyone can say it's not Mantis or brush it off as being made up. Part of this whole thread started with others putting down the SD. I have been (in a round about way) been throwed out by both brothers. Most would tear the art up, but I think most don't understande SD. As I have said before there are some great fighters that came out of SD that has trained in nothing else but SD. I have also seen some of the student of SD that have high belt that don't understand the SD system. I guess I look at Martial arts and I expect to be able to fight with the forms and tech that the instructor is teaching. We have around 30 diffent self-defence moves that we show out at white belt rank. they range from two hand chokes, head locks, arm bar locks, two hand shirt grab, ect... like most styles. I can take any one of the 30 and show you the move in a form and some times two or three forms. when done in the SD form most of the time it has a set up move before. I can fight any style and feel like I have a chance. I can change and adapt to anything. If you ask what the princapals of SD I would say never let your oppont lead. IF you wont to kick I will go inside, if you wont to fight inside I will keep you at a distance, if you wont to stand up and fight Iwill go to the ground. The system seems to teach you how to fight in any situation. a few weeks ago I had master from the Arnis come up and teach some police offercers in the area. He was demostrating how once you got the person down you could lay on there chest and amost keep them from breathing. As this 260+ lb guy layed on my (150lb) chest I started to lose my breath, at this point I went strate to the breathing I had learnd in the SD system and got my breath back. I can tell you many stories where some one came at me and I did a move out of one of my SD forms.

 

[7starmantis]

This is some of what I'm talking about. This picture is from the video titled "Praying Mantis" His fingers are extended and open, his base foot is up on the toe (not rooted), his center is off balance and leaning back, his head is down (not looking ahead where the attacker would be), his guard hand is nowhere in sight, but if you watch the video is down by his stomach. The kick is obviously far beyond his natural abilities and a huge stretch to make.

These are the things that make me say what I have about these forms (sorry kata).

7sm

Could you explain the application and purpose of this?
Do you have any videos of you performing a form that we could see?
Could you answer my question about going through the video on that site technique by technique?

7sm

Edit: Using bold letters is considered yelling almost shouting. It also considered rude to type entire posts in that "tone of voice" if you will.

 

[sifu Adams]

Sorry about the bold letter thing I didn't know. I was just trying to make it easyer to read.


With out seeing the hole form I can't say he is doing it all wrong or not. It looks like he is doing what SD calls a double smash. It is used throughout the SD system. as for the mantis. it is used in all the mantis forms we have. in the thurst it's at the veary end. the lead in move is a left instep kick to your opponits left side,(yes head level--I know you don't like that but thats our system) which will draw your opponit back and shift his wieght to his right side. then you set the Left foot down spin to your right and smash the right side of the there head with your left foot. (like a ax kick) I am assuming this is what he is doing because his foot is off the ground. We have this same move in another manits where you feed the hand to the oppist side of your opponits body and then smash with the foot. Can it be done Yes, I have had it happen to me and I have done it. except I changed the kick to a spinning round house for safety reasons. Think of this if you are in your mantis stance lets say right foot forward. :Your hands are touching mine and my right leg is forward. what happens when I move my left hand to the right side of your body? Would you parry it to your left? if so what hand are you useing, where is your weight, and remember my next move is the left leg to the right side of your head. Will it work every time? maybe, maybe not Can you defend from it Maybe, maybe not.

 

[7starmantis]

Well that was one question.

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

Did that help you understand? You don't have to agree with it. I would just like for people to understand enought to recpect it.

 

[7starmantis]

the lead in move is a left instep kick to your opponits left side,(yes head level--I know you don't like that but thats our system)

Thats exactly my point, you have made it well. Your system, not CMA. I dont think I have not understood the SD system, I just dont understand why they must persist in calling it CMA when they could just say its a new created system.

You do things against CMA principles because its your system but then try to say your witholding to CMA principles. In mantis, that explination you gave is completely against the principles.

Also, that is only one of the questions I asked you.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Did that help you understand? You don't have to agree with it. I would just like for people to understand enought to recpect it.

I think you are fighting a personal battle here. It seems you feel the need to make everyone respect your system and skill. No one here is disrespecting the system or its players, just that its not withholding the CMA principles an dthus should be honest about its conception and principles.

7sm