Is it indeed the case that there are 900 forms? I take it you are saying that most are optional?
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Antares33
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Grandmaster The claims to know 900+ forms, but the cirriculum through 6th black, which is as far as my manual goes is something more like 160. Theres also a set of 30 short forms, which link together to make what is more or less an extremely long form.
...I doubt he always is capable of performing any of 900+ forms.
In his book he tells a story of how his master taught him to have a photographic memory. And I KNOW he has a good memory, he's always remembered my first name since our first introduction. I've also heard a (second-hand) story of his visiting one year to a school and saying that he always meant to learn Spanish, and the next year showing up and speaking fluently with a native speaker. These are the facts proudly displayed by anyone who feels he could easily memorize so many forms.
My feeling that he can not is bolstered by the fact that I've heard many higher ranking students refer to GM Sin "reviewing his notes" before bringing out a new form, as at his last Shaolin-Do Invitational. Also, a certain court case in which he was involved saw him bringing forth (as I understand it) detailed notes from his training as a youngster.
So, being kind, I think it possible that he has been exposed to 900+ and took notes that these forms may be preserved.
Also note...short kata are probably counted, and that's 30. Assume he knows the "traditional" (Tan Tui) steps, that's 108 isn't it? The early stuff is pretty short.
Antarres is correct as well. My instructor is soon testing for 3rd black and he has been exposed to around 120 in his 18 years...forms he feels comfortable teaching is a much smaller number. Forms he would claim to have "mastered", even smaller I'd say.
The curriculum up to black is set. After black, you can (as far as I can tell) learn ANYTHING that anyone of higher rank is willing to teach. There are "suggested" times to show things...for example, the 8 drunken immortals require great flexibility and precision...so it is suggested that they be held back until say 4th black. But, my instructor is feeling my group out right now to see what we might be interested in learning after we test (and hopefully pass) our black belts. He has shown us a list of 20 or so forms, explaining the pros and cons of each (that one is long, but not to physically demanding...that one is short, but very physically demanding with it's two 360 kicks into front splits...that's moderate and moderate, etc.) so we can get an idea of what we want to pursue. One of the forms I KNOW is "suggested" for 4th black that he's offering...he says it's "hard and very long". :shrug:
In his book he tells a story of how his master taught him to have a photographic memory. And I KNOW he has a good memory, he's always remembered my first name since our first introduction. I've also heard a (second-hand) story of his visiting one year to a school and saying that he always meant to learn Spanish, and the next year showing up and speaking fluently with a native speaker. These are the facts proudly displayed by anyone who feels he could easily memorize so many forms.
My feeling that he can not is bolstered by the fact that I've heard many higher ranking students refer to GM Sin "reviewing his notes" before bringing out a new form, as at his last Shaolin-Do Invitational. Also, a certain court case in which he was involved saw him bringing forth (as I understand it) detailed notes from his training as a youngster.
So, being kind, I think it possible that he has been exposed to 900+ and took notes that these forms may be preserved.
Also note...short kata are probably counted, and that's 30. Assume he knows the "traditional" (Tan Tui) steps, that's 108 isn't it? The early stuff is pretty short.
Antarres is correct as well. My instructor is soon testing for 3rd black and he has been exposed to around 120 in his 18 years...forms he feels comfortable teaching is a much smaller number. Forms he would claim to have "mastered", even smaller I'd say.
The curriculum up to black is set. After black, you can (as far as I can tell) learn ANYTHING that anyone of higher rank is willing to teach. There are "suggested" times to show things...for example, the 8 drunken immortals require great flexibility and precision...so it is suggested that they be held back until say 4th black. But, my instructor is feeling my group out right now to see what we might be interested in learning after we test (and hopefully pass) our black belts. He has shown us a list of 20 or so forms, explaining the pros and cons of each (that one is long, but not to physically demanding...that one is short, but very physically demanding with it's two 360 kicks into front splits...that's moderate and moderate, etc.) so we can get an idea of what we want to pursue. One of the forms I KNOW is "suggested" for 4th black that he's offering...he says it's "hard and very long". :shrug:
Huh. There's a Shaolin-Do school not far from where I'm living. One of my students trained in the system briefly years ago. He's a black belt in a system of Karate -- I believe it's Isshin-ryu but could be mistaken. He said the SD wasn't bad material, but it wasn't everything it's cracked up to be.
I may have to go check this place out so I can form my own opinion of it.
I first heard of SD from a friend of mine. There was a school near his college. He never went there, but he met the instructor a few times. Said the guy was an arrogant blow-hard. Doesn't mean anything one way or another about the art.
Then I saw a SD school in Anderson, IN while visiting my parents. The place was closed when I saw it (it was on a Sunday).
I went out and looked at their website and it sent up quite a few of my caution flags.
My student who trained in it briefly said that they're definitely sincere about what they do. Whether the material is legitimate or not is a whole different issue.
I may have to visit the school near me so I can form my own opinion. But I doubt I'll ever have the time to do so.
Taking a tangent here ... knowing a bunch of forms may or may not be suspect. Depends on what you consider a form. Many Silat systems use "jurus" (short hand forms) and "langkahs" (foot paths, lower body forms). And many also have "kembangan" (flower dances). If I count up all of these that I know, it's over 60 "forms." But, except for a longish kembangan, most of these are 5 - 10 motions long (some of the langkahs near 20 motions).
When I add in the Kuntao forms (which are longer forms) that I've got, that's 5 more.
If I count the angling systems from Filipino arts as forms, then that's another 4 or 5. Then I've also got 3 actual stick forms (which merge into one longish form). If I add in the knife templates (which could be counted as forms), then that's another 6. If I add in the 2 person flow drills which could be considered forms, then that's another dozen or so.
That means that, using my personal interpretation of "forms" (which may be looser than some people's interpretation), I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 forms. And that's just the ones that I can do on-demand about 90% of the time (I occasionally have brain-dead days).
There are a handful of others that I might be able to pull out of my memory if I really felt the need. And there are at least 50 that I've been exposed to but don't know off the top of my head (but I know where to go to find them if I ever feel a need to learn them).
900 does seem a little extreme. But until I started counting, I wouldn't have thought I'd have 100 either.
Like I said, this was totally tangential to the topic. I just got to thinking and counting and realized that I know quite a few "forms"
Mike
I may have to go check this place out so I can form my own opinion of it.
I first heard of SD from a friend of mine. There was a school near his college. He never went there, but he met the instructor a few times. Said the guy was an arrogant blow-hard. Doesn't mean anything one way or another about the art.
Then I saw a SD school in Anderson, IN while visiting my parents. The place was closed when I saw it (it was on a Sunday).
I went out and looked at their website and it sent up quite a few of my caution flags.
My student who trained in it briefly said that they're definitely sincere about what they do. Whether the material is legitimate or not is a whole different issue.
I may have to visit the school near me so I can form my own opinion. But I doubt I'll ever have the time to do so.
Taking a tangent here ... knowing a bunch of forms may or may not be suspect. Depends on what you consider a form. Many Silat systems use "jurus" (short hand forms) and "langkahs" (foot paths, lower body forms). And many also have "kembangan" (flower dances). If I count up all of these that I know, it's over 60 "forms." But, except for a longish kembangan, most of these are 5 - 10 motions long (some of the langkahs near 20 motions).
When I add in the Kuntao forms (which are longer forms) that I've got, that's 5 more.
If I count the angling systems from Filipino arts as forms, then that's another 4 or 5. Then I've also got 3 actual stick forms (which merge into one longish form). If I add in the knife templates (which could be counted as forms), then that's another 6. If I add in the 2 person flow drills which could be considered forms, then that's another dozen or so.
That means that, using my personal interpretation of "forms" (which may be looser than some people's interpretation), I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 forms. And that's just the ones that I can do on-demand about 90% of the time (I occasionally have brain-dead days).
There are a handful of others that I might be able to pull out of my memory if I really felt the need. And there are at least 50 that I've been exposed to but don't know off the top of my head (but I know where to go to find them if I ever feel a need to learn them).
900 does seem a little extreme. But until I started counting, I wouldn't have thought I'd have 100 either.
Like I said, this was totally tangential to the topic. I just got to thinking and counting and realized that I know quite a few "forms"
Mike
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Drunken Arhat
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- #25
Just to add some contrast,
I ve trained for nearly three years and have only advance one belt. There are only 5 belts in my style but in reference to how fast shaolin-do advances it seems a bit fast. I train 3-4 nights a week, so I can not see how anyone can retain that much material in that amount of time. I have won full contact matches and forms comps so i wouldnt say that i suck.
Just seems weird,
Drunken
I ve trained for nearly three years and have only advance one belt. There are only 5 belts in my style but in reference to how fast shaolin-do advances it seems a bit fast. I train 3-4 nights a week, so I can not see how anyone can retain that much material in that amount of time. I have won full contact matches and forms comps so i wouldnt say that i suck.
Just seems weird,
Drunken
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zen_hydra
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- #26
I have formally studied Goju-Ryu Karate, Yoseikan Budo, and I currently study Shaolin-do gung fu. I have seen a lot of negativity expressed towards Shaolin-do here and on several other forums, and I am not sure why. I went looking for Chinese martial arts with a critical mind. I am no fool. I know what kind of con-men, and opportunists are out there. I went into this with my eyes open. I don't know about the experiences of others with Shaolin-do, but I live in San Antonio, and after attending for the school for two weeks, for free I decided to give the school a try. They seemed to be the real deal, and nothing I have seen or experienced has shown me otherwise. We train hard, and everyone I have encountered here has been sincere and open. Fair play and love-of-learning are encouraged, and bravado, and ego are checked at the door. New material is always forth coming, but is always built on top of what you have already learned. I have seen forms performed by members of other CMA schools, and on video tapes, and they compare favorably to the kinds of forms that we learn. So I don't understand the arguments that Shaolin-do teaches some sort of watered down art. Does Shaolin-do cover too much, different material (too much variety, not enough focus)? Maybe. For many people it probably does cover too much ground, too quickly, but I don't necessarily see that as a fault with the school, so much as a challenge to students who strive for greatness. As I stated above, I have had nothing but good experiences with this art. The same can not be said for my prior martial arts experiences. I have been a student of Shaolin-do since July 2002, and I would be happy to discuss any questions or comments that people have regarding Shaolin-do.
That's great that it's good for you! I think the 900+ forms is what causes people to wonder--it seems like it must be too much for one person to know.
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SRyuFighter
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- #28
Yea it's definitely the forms thing. Thanks for posting!
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dogma173
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- #29
I checked out there website and it seems fine. But I see they like to mix japanese martial arts with shaolin kung fu. I'm not trying to say this makes them bad, but usually most masters do not mix separate arts.
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zen_hydra
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I can understand the doubt about knowing 900+ forms. I have met Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' on several occasions, and he has always been humble, earnest, and soft spoken. I have never heard him personally claim to know 900+ forms at any given time. I believe he may very well have been exposed to that many different forms during the course of his studies, and may have written notation for many of them. At the same time I don't know that he doesn't know that many forms. He is not given to bragging, or showing off, so I don't know what the actual truth of the matter is, but his actions, and the actions of the masters under him have never given me cause to question their verity, or their motives. From what I understand, Grandmaster Sin started training in the martial arts at a very young age, and with great intensity. I would never be the kind of person to say something can't be done. I personally believe that the human potential is far greater than most people understand. How many of you believe in qi energy? I am willing to believe a great many of you do, but most western medical doctors (or people in general for that matter) would tell you that they have never seen proof of anything like qi. That doesn't mean qi doesn't exist. Doctors are now admitting that acupuncture seems to work even though they don't understand why. My point, again, is that just because something seems difficult for anyone to achieve doesn't mean it isn't true. Does Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' know 900+ forms? I don't know... but he might.
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SRyuFighter
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- #31
Yep and that makes me wonder too. They claim to be straight Shaolin Kung Fu. Yet they have Kata and ippon kumite. Hmmmm. Oh well if it works it works. Good luck in your training Zen Hydra.
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ecw1701
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Greetings all
It doesn't seem like anyone on this thread actually takes Shaolin Do classes, so I felt I should comment:
I am a 1st Degree Black Belt in Shaolin Do. I am an assistant instructor in both the Kung Fu and Tai Chi programs at my school.
www.shaolincenter.com
First, I'd like to clear up a few discrepancies, please bear with me:
Note, this is paraphrased from www.shaolin-do.com
The 'guy covered in hair' was named Su Kong Tai Jin, and is the Great Great Grandmaster (teacher's teacher's teacher) of our System. He lived and studied at the Fukien Temple in China. He passed on what he knew to I Chan Ming, the Great Grandmaster of our system. After the destruction of the Fukien Temple, I Chan Ming fled to Indonesia, and in order to escape from massive anti-Chinese sentiment in the area, disguised his art as a Japanese style, hence the Japanese Gi's and belt ranking system. Our Grandmaster, Sin Kwan The studied under I Chan Ming, mastered the system (over 900 forms) after 15 years of training 8 hours a day, and moved to the US where he has taught since the 60's.
At least, that is the official story
In reality, a look at his brother's site http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html reveals some inconsistencies in the story.
While I feel is is unlikely that the GM knows over 900 forms, I would not say it is impossible. The problems as I see it with SD are two fold:
1. It is a LOT to take in. It takes extensive personal practice to become even half way decent with your material (At Black Belt in Kung Fu, and nearly Black Sash in Tai Chi, I have over 20 long forms and over 60 short forms; I do not claim mastery in any of them, only proficiency). While it is true someone who has focused on only one or two styles will be 'better' at them then a SD student of comparable training, the SD student will have a wider range of techniques to draw from to fit the situation. This is the 'standard' explanation, and I for one agree with it. Ultimately it is a matter of choice; to be focused or comprehensive. To spend 10 years on 1 style or 1 year on 10 different styles
2. The MAJOR problem with SD is the belief that it is 'the best', the 'most comprehensive', etc etc. It has been my experience that most of the practioners of this system only have a limited knowledge of other styles and what they do. There is a (usually)unspoken assumption that we do it 'better', or if we train long enough, we'll learn it eventually (since SD encompasses ALL styles taught at ALL the Shaolin Temples). More than anything else, it is the egotistical drive to declare our superiority in the light of our dubious origins, that causes practioners of our style to look foolish to most people.
I will conclude with this. I have no illusions about learning 900 forms ever, much less in this system. Senior Masters with over 30 years experience barely have over 100. What I do get from it, is a sampling of different styles, and an insight into their strengths and weaknesses, as well as my own strengths and weaknesses. I recommend SD to anyone who wants to get into fantastic shape, learn effective self defense, and is not overwhelmed by a fast pace. Go to a school, watch a class, and watch the teachers. The level of skill they exhibit is the level of skill they can teach to you. It is up to you to reach or exceed it. If you don't like what you see, move on.
I would ask that you all not be too critical of us and what we do, especially if you don't have first hand experience training with us. Our system has strengths and weaknesses, as every system does. We have good teachers and bad teachers. In the end it is the man in the fight who will win or lose, not what style he practiced or who taught him. If you work hard at this, or any style, you will get what you need.
It doesn't seem like anyone on this thread actually takes Shaolin Do classes, so I felt I should comment:
I am a 1st Degree Black Belt in Shaolin Do. I am an assistant instructor in both the Kung Fu and Tai Chi programs at my school.
www.shaolincenter.com
First, I'd like to clear up a few discrepancies, please bear with me:
Note, this is paraphrased from www.shaolin-do.com
The 'guy covered in hair' was named Su Kong Tai Jin, and is the Great Great Grandmaster (teacher's teacher's teacher) of our System. He lived and studied at the Fukien Temple in China. He passed on what he knew to I Chan Ming, the Great Grandmaster of our system. After the destruction of the Fukien Temple, I Chan Ming fled to Indonesia, and in order to escape from massive anti-Chinese sentiment in the area, disguised his art as a Japanese style, hence the Japanese Gi's and belt ranking system. Our Grandmaster, Sin Kwan The studied under I Chan Ming, mastered the system (over 900 forms) after 15 years of training 8 hours a day, and moved to the US where he has taught since the 60's.
At least, that is the official story
In reality, a look at his brother's site http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html reveals some inconsistencies in the story.
While I feel is is unlikely that the GM knows over 900 forms, I would not say it is impossible. The problems as I see it with SD are two fold:
1. It is a LOT to take in. It takes extensive personal practice to become even half way decent with your material (At Black Belt in Kung Fu, and nearly Black Sash in Tai Chi, I have over 20 long forms and over 60 short forms; I do not claim mastery in any of them, only proficiency). While it is true someone who has focused on only one or two styles will be 'better' at them then a SD student of comparable training, the SD student will have a wider range of techniques to draw from to fit the situation. This is the 'standard' explanation, and I for one agree with it. Ultimately it is a matter of choice; to be focused or comprehensive. To spend 10 years on 1 style or 1 year on 10 different styles
2. The MAJOR problem with SD is the belief that it is 'the best', the 'most comprehensive', etc etc. It has been my experience that most of the practioners of this system only have a limited knowledge of other styles and what they do. There is a (usually)unspoken assumption that we do it 'better', or if we train long enough, we'll learn it eventually (since SD encompasses ALL styles taught at ALL the Shaolin Temples). More than anything else, it is the egotistical drive to declare our superiority in the light of our dubious origins, that causes practioners of our style to look foolish to most people.
I will conclude with this. I have no illusions about learning 900 forms ever, much less in this system. Senior Masters with over 30 years experience barely have over 100. What I do get from it, is a sampling of different styles, and an insight into their strengths and weaknesses, as well as my own strengths and weaknesses. I recommend SD to anyone who wants to get into fantastic shape, learn effective self defense, and is not overwhelmed by a fast pace. Go to a school, watch a class, and watch the teachers. The level of skill they exhibit is the level of skill they can teach to you. It is up to you to reach or exceed it. If you don't like what you see, move on.
I would ask that you all not be too critical of us and what we do, especially if you don't have first hand experience training with us. Our system has strengths and weaknesses, as every system does. We have good teachers and bad teachers. In the end it is the man in the fight who will win or lose, not what style he practiced or who taught him. If you work hard at this, or any style, you will get what you need.
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eneref
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- #33
I've studied Shaolin-Tao (that's how we spell it, anyway) now for a little under 2 years. I was no fool when I came in... I made sure I knew what I was getting into.
The lineage that is espoused by the many websites and teachers is contrived. I know this. I've seen the documentation. Why this is, I've no idea... marketing perhaps... but to be honest, I dare anyone to definitively tell me the lineage of Wing Chun. Not the 3 possibilities... the actual one. MOST martial arts become nebulous when you go back too far. That's simply the nature of history.
Shaolin-Tao's Grandmaster, Sin Kwang The' was given his grandmastership by his teacher/grandfather because he was the eldest grandson who was studying the art and that is his birth right. Does this make his grandmastership false? No. Does it make him bad at kung fu? Hardly.
His style of kung fu was originally taught to him his Chinese grandfather, Ie Chang Ming. He studied at the Chung Yen kung fu school in Bandung, Indonesia. Where his grandfather trained is still somewhat of a mystery. The official line is he learned his art from Su Kong Tai Djin, the official beginner of the art. The real story? Like most arts... shrouded in mystery, half-truths, legends, and outright made up stories. He's dead. We can no longer ask him.
Sin The's brother used to also teach with Sin the Shaolin-Tao art they both learned. However, there was some rivalry there, and now, his brother no longer uses the Shaolin Tao name. He went back to using the name of the school in which they both trained, Chung Yen. http://www.centralshaolin.com/
So far, what I've said has to do with the history. It's contrived. To what level is hard to say... the name, certainly, is likely suspect. But what's in a name?
The art itself is another story.
Many people start in Shaolin-Tao and work until about brown belt or just before and then give up, thinking what they learn is useless. To some degree, it is. This is, for all intents and purposes, a probationary period. This is the weed-out time. They build up your level of conditioning, and give you some very simple introductories into many different styles so you will know some of the names, some of the history, and a lot of the foundation moves for many of the more advanced forms you'd see later on.
Are you going to be a kick *** fighter after 6 months to a year of into material? No. Are you going to feel the style, and learn the basis of a system? No. You're going to learn some stances, you'll learn some moves, and you'll see if any of it reall appeals to you.
Once you become a black belt, then the training truly begins. The styles become more focused, and you're encouraged to pick a style that suits you. It's up to YOU to work on it as much as you can to attempt to 'master' the forms or the style. Will you ever? In a lifetime? I'd argue no. Some would argue yes. To me, Kung Fu is a journey with no end. There will never be a time in my life I cannot improve on what I know. Does this mean I should stop trying to learn more? Hardly. Specialization is for insects. Humans should be able to do so much more.
The problem so many have with the art is that they take what they can from the glitzy marketing websites, and the rumours and hearsay, and they elaborate on it a little... and perhaps see it from their perspective.
We don't use Japanese uniforms at my school. We don't use Japanese names for the forms... or for our ranks. I think the original decision to do so may have stemmed from the idea that people wouldn't understand the Chinese martial arts as well in Sin The's native translplant state of Kentucky. Who's to say he was wrong. This trend, however, is changing.
This brings up another problem that I've noticed. The art is only as good as its teachers and students. In Shaolin-Tao, I've seen a LOT of differences is some teachers and some students. Some teachers only focus on winning tournaments... some focus on sparring... some on making forms pretty. Some teachers, however, are VERY good. They understand the applicability of every move in every form... and can apply it easily and with grace and skill.
They teach a variety of students. Some of those students end up being fantastic martial artists. Graceful, powerful, quick, calm, and confident. Others end up more like me. I've managed to break bones, stab myself in the leg in tai chi, sprain ankles, twist joints, dislocate vertebrae, etc. I am hardly, however, to be taken as an example of the effectiveness, value, or overall worth of the art I study. I'm just a clumsy oaf.
I know Shaolin-Tao has a bad rap. I can understand why. Part of this is politics. Part of this is the undying urge for all martial arts students to think their master/teacher/art/style/method is the best. Part of this is the inconsistencies in what one teacher will say over another.
I'm a firm believer that, given enough hard work (which is really kung fu at its finest), it's a wonderful martial art with some deep roots in traditional Shaolin styles. Modified, perhaps, over time in its transition from China to Indonesia, but that hardly makes any of the art worthless.
Does Grandmaster The' know 900+ forms? I doubt it. Does he have notes on 900+ forms? Quite possibly. Has he been shown 900 forms? I suppose it's possible. I don't know. That number itself is, even by the higest ranking members of our art, held somewhat reverently suspect. We will give him the benefit of the doubt. The forms he's been seen doing are good. He has messed up once or twice... but the man IS getting old... and can hardly do every form he knows every day, and likely has his favourite style and favourite forms as well. None of the senior students in our art have nearly that many, and perhaps they don't even exist. I know that the forms my master has he knows well and knows the applications of. That's all I can definitively say.
I recommend checking out the art for a WHILE. Like any Chinese martial art, it will take many years before you truly understand the effectiveness of some of the moves and the applications underlying them.
We don't have contracts required at the schools in my state. You CAN do a contract if you want, but that just lowers the month-month cost. I'd steer clear of ANY martial arts instructor that required a long-term contract. A very famous Wing Chun instructor in this area scared me off with his "pay up front for 6 months no refunds and we'll see if we allow you to still be a student after 6 months" policy. Does that make him a bad teacher? No. It just makes his policy suspect... and if you're uncomfortable with your training environment, be it the people, the payments, the teacher's attitude, or even the colour of the kwoon/dojo walls, then you're likely going to lose out on the art.
The lineage that is espoused by the many websites and teachers is contrived. I know this. I've seen the documentation. Why this is, I've no idea... marketing perhaps... but to be honest, I dare anyone to definitively tell me the lineage of Wing Chun. Not the 3 possibilities... the actual one. MOST martial arts become nebulous when you go back too far. That's simply the nature of history.
Shaolin-Tao's Grandmaster, Sin Kwang The' was given his grandmastership by his teacher/grandfather because he was the eldest grandson who was studying the art and that is his birth right. Does this make his grandmastership false? No. Does it make him bad at kung fu? Hardly.
His style of kung fu was originally taught to him his Chinese grandfather, Ie Chang Ming. He studied at the Chung Yen kung fu school in Bandung, Indonesia. Where his grandfather trained is still somewhat of a mystery. The official line is he learned his art from Su Kong Tai Djin, the official beginner of the art. The real story? Like most arts... shrouded in mystery, half-truths, legends, and outright made up stories. He's dead. We can no longer ask him.
Sin The's brother used to also teach with Sin the Shaolin-Tao art they both learned. However, there was some rivalry there, and now, his brother no longer uses the Shaolin Tao name. He went back to using the name of the school in which they both trained, Chung Yen. http://www.centralshaolin.com/
So far, what I've said has to do with the history. It's contrived. To what level is hard to say... the name, certainly, is likely suspect. But what's in a name?
The art itself is another story.
Many people start in Shaolin-Tao and work until about brown belt or just before and then give up, thinking what they learn is useless. To some degree, it is. This is, for all intents and purposes, a probationary period. This is the weed-out time. They build up your level of conditioning, and give you some very simple introductories into many different styles so you will know some of the names, some of the history, and a lot of the foundation moves for many of the more advanced forms you'd see later on.
Are you going to be a kick *** fighter after 6 months to a year of into material? No. Are you going to feel the style, and learn the basis of a system? No. You're going to learn some stances, you'll learn some moves, and you'll see if any of it reall appeals to you.
Once you become a black belt, then the training truly begins. The styles become more focused, and you're encouraged to pick a style that suits you. It's up to YOU to work on it as much as you can to attempt to 'master' the forms or the style. Will you ever? In a lifetime? I'd argue no. Some would argue yes. To me, Kung Fu is a journey with no end. There will never be a time in my life I cannot improve on what I know. Does this mean I should stop trying to learn more? Hardly. Specialization is for insects. Humans should be able to do so much more.
The problem so many have with the art is that they take what they can from the glitzy marketing websites, and the rumours and hearsay, and they elaborate on it a little... and perhaps see it from their perspective.
We don't use Japanese uniforms at my school. We don't use Japanese names for the forms... or for our ranks. I think the original decision to do so may have stemmed from the idea that people wouldn't understand the Chinese martial arts as well in Sin The's native translplant state of Kentucky. Who's to say he was wrong. This trend, however, is changing.
This brings up another problem that I've noticed. The art is only as good as its teachers and students. In Shaolin-Tao, I've seen a LOT of differences is some teachers and some students. Some teachers only focus on winning tournaments... some focus on sparring... some on making forms pretty. Some teachers, however, are VERY good. They understand the applicability of every move in every form... and can apply it easily and with grace and skill.
They teach a variety of students. Some of those students end up being fantastic martial artists. Graceful, powerful, quick, calm, and confident. Others end up more like me. I've managed to break bones, stab myself in the leg in tai chi, sprain ankles, twist joints, dislocate vertebrae, etc. I am hardly, however, to be taken as an example of the effectiveness, value, or overall worth of the art I study. I'm just a clumsy oaf.
I know Shaolin-Tao has a bad rap. I can understand why. Part of this is politics. Part of this is the undying urge for all martial arts students to think their master/teacher/art/style/method is the best. Part of this is the inconsistencies in what one teacher will say over another.
I'm a firm believer that, given enough hard work (which is really kung fu at its finest), it's a wonderful martial art with some deep roots in traditional Shaolin styles. Modified, perhaps, over time in its transition from China to Indonesia, but that hardly makes any of the art worthless.
Does Grandmaster The' know 900+ forms? I doubt it. Does he have notes on 900+ forms? Quite possibly. Has he been shown 900 forms? I suppose it's possible. I don't know. That number itself is, even by the higest ranking members of our art, held somewhat reverently suspect. We will give him the benefit of the doubt. The forms he's been seen doing are good. He has messed up once or twice... but the man IS getting old... and can hardly do every form he knows every day, and likely has his favourite style and favourite forms as well. None of the senior students in our art have nearly that many, and perhaps they don't even exist. I know that the forms my master has he knows well and knows the applications of. That's all I can definitively say.
I recommend checking out the art for a WHILE. Like any Chinese martial art, it will take many years before you truly understand the effectiveness of some of the moves and the applications underlying them.
We don't have contracts required at the schools in my state. You CAN do a contract if you want, but that just lowers the month-month cost. I'd steer clear of ANY martial arts instructor that required a long-term contract. A very famous Wing Chun instructor in this area scared me off with his "pay up front for 6 months no refunds and we'll see if we allow you to still be a student after 6 months" policy. Does that make him a bad teacher? No. It just makes his policy suspect... and if you're uncomfortable with your training environment, be it the people, the payments, the teacher's attitude, or even the colour of the kwoon/dojo walls, then you're likely going to lose out on the art.
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SRyuFighter
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- #34
Thanks for posting.
eneref:
I hope I don't offend you, I'm just curious, would you explain the basis behind your system using belt rankings and such that would be more familiar with another system such as karate, or such?
I'm just curious, it has always sort of struck me as odd, thats all.
7sm
I hope I don't offend you, I'm just curious, would you explain the basis behind your system using belt rankings and such that would be more familiar with another system such as karate, or such?
I'm just curious, it has always sort of struck me as odd, thats all.
7sm
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eneref
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- #36
Not an offense.
The history we've been told is that the belt rankings were added in Indonesia because Chinese Martial Arts were outlawed there, and they had to make it appear Japanese (hence the gis and belts).
I don't know if that's true or not... or if it's just been added as a method for Westerners to be able to identify with it and set goals for themselves.
Either way, it's somewhat nebulous. All the colours are for the sort of probationary period... and once you advance beyond that, you are at levels of black belt, but you're all in the same class, often doing the same things, so it's less like a rank and more like an indicator of what material you should be focusing on and a way to easily identify those who can help you with your material and help you understand the concepts you may be struggling with.
The history we've been told is that the belt rankings were added in Indonesia because Chinese Martial Arts were outlawed there, and they had to make it appear Japanese (hence the gis and belts).
I don't know if that's true or not... or if it's just been added as a method for Westerners to be able to identify with it and set goals for themselves.
Either way, it's somewhat nebulous. All the colours are for the sort of probationary period... and once you advance beyond that, you are at levels of black belt, but you're all in the same class, often doing the same things, so it's less like a rank and more like an indicator of what material you should be focusing on and a way to easily identify those who can help you with your material and help you understand the concepts you may be struggling with.
First off, I was able to earn my black-belt a few weeks back.
:boing1:
7starmantis, I realize your question wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd add something. My understanding is that in Indonesia silat and (sometimes) kuntao will wear gis. Wearing a gi was supposedly an attempt to blend in...as eneref, I've heard that traditional Chinese arts were outlawed in Indonesia for a time.
Also, my understanding is that dropping the belt rankings was discussed...and dismissed by GM Sin as something disrespectful to GM Ie and the struggles he went through to keep the style alive. I hesitate to mention this...as eneref's instructor is sort of in the middle of this one. But, dropping the gi's was discussed and discarded as not doing justice to GM Ie's memory as well. My understanding is that the decision to wear "traditional" outfits was OKed with GM Sin, but he made it clear that he would consider it insulting. Usually, this is all he needs to do to ensure that something doesn't happen. The fact that they went ahead was quite shocking to the rank and file in Lexington/Texas/etc. I hope that the stories I've heard of the hurt feelings and disappointment are overstated. I (personally) don't see any problem with it. Heck, I'd prefer to practice in a club t-shirt...and, in fact, I help run a review and workout class once a week where that's the norm. Sifu is ok with it since it's not an "official" class, more like the group meeting without him there.
Not sure how to take ecw's opening statements...I'll assume he somehow skipped my previous post, both ecw and eneref seem to be quite knowledgeable and I've agreed with all they've said thus far. How GREAT to hear from shaolin-do guys on this forum. I'm looking forward to reading more from both practicioners in the days to come!
:boing1:
7starmantis, I realize your question wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd add something. My understanding is that in Indonesia silat and (sometimes) kuntao will wear gis. Wearing a gi was supposedly an attempt to blend in...as eneref, I've heard that traditional Chinese arts were outlawed in Indonesia for a time.
Also, my understanding is that dropping the belt rankings was discussed...and dismissed by GM Sin as something disrespectful to GM Ie and the struggles he went through to keep the style alive. I hesitate to mention this...as eneref's instructor is sort of in the middle of this one. But, dropping the gi's was discussed and discarded as not doing justice to GM Ie's memory as well. My understanding is that the decision to wear "traditional" outfits was OKed with GM Sin, but he made it clear that he would consider it insulting. Usually, this is all he needs to do to ensure that something doesn't happen. The fact that they went ahead was quite shocking to the rank and file in Lexington/Texas/etc. I hope that the stories I've heard of the hurt feelings and disappointment are overstated. I (personally) don't see any problem with it. Heck, I'd prefer to practice in a club t-shirt...and, in fact, I help run a review and workout class once a week where that's the norm. Sifu is ok with it since it's not an "official" class, more like the group meeting without him there.
Not sure how to take ecw's opening statements...I'll assume he somehow skipped my previous post, both ecw and eneref seem to be quite knowledgeable and I've agreed with all they've said thus far. How GREAT to hear from shaolin-do guys on this forum. I'm looking forward to reading more from both practicioners in the days to come!
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eneref
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- Thread Starter
- #38
It's funny that you bring up the disrespect of Ie Chang Ming. I've looked over the many illustrations we have of his images and the students in them, and none of them are actually wearing gi. They're all wearing button-down-the-front shirts.
Honestly, though, I doubt my instructor (who's a 6th degree) would have gone so far as to change everything so completely if he'd gotten any serious push-back from GM The'. There's a great deal of respect there...
Still, far be it from me to be privy to those conversations.
Honestly, though, I doubt my instructor (who's a 6th degree) would have gone so far as to change everything so completely if he'd gotten any serious push-back from GM The'. There's a great deal of respect there...
Still, far be it from me to be privy to those conversations.
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ecw1701
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- #39
I must apologize Radhnoti; I read the first page and the top of the second before posting, so I did not see your posts. I meant no disrespect.
I don't understand the GI conflict either, but as Eneref pointed out, it must not be a huge one since my teacher doesn't use them either. The vast majority of political issues in ANY system baffle me. As far as I'm concerned, time spent arguing is time wasted. I consider myself a traditionalist, in the sense that I feel there are certain traits and characteristics present in anything labeled 'Kung Fu' (or Karate, or Kali, etc). But if those fundamentals are present, the room for interpretation is limitless. This is the reason we have more than 1 martial arts style on the planet. In keeping with this idea, I find it impossible to label Kung Fu 'better' than Karate, or anything else, but I do think you can speak in terms of effectiveness, practicality, etc.
This disdain for politics and arguments is what keeps me out of forums. Learn all you can, apply it as well as you can, and pass it on as accurately as you can; that is the best you can do.
I don't understand the GI conflict either, but as Eneref pointed out, it must not be a huge one since my teacher doesn't use them either. The vast majority of political issues in ANY system baffle me. As far as I'm concerned, time spent arguing is time wasted. I consider myself a traditionalist, in the sense that I feel there are certain traits and characteristics present in anything labeled 'Kung Fu' (or Karate, or Kali, etc). But if those fundamentals are present, the room for interpretation is limitless. This is the reason we have more than 1 martial arts style on the planet. In keeping with this idea, I find it impossible to label Kung Fu 'better' than Karate, or anything else, but I do think you can speak in terms of effectiveness, practicality, etc.
This disdain for politics and arguments is what keeps me out of forums. Learn all you can, apply it as well as you can, and pass it on as accurately as you can; that is the best you can do.
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zen_hydra
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- Thread Starter
- #40
I am glad to see some fellow Shaolin-Do folks around here. I go to the San Antonio school, and train under Sifu Ryan Howard. Where do you guys train?
