Another kick question

[clfsean]

Here's a fine example of Northern CMA kicking skills from Sifu Kisu of Buk Siu Lum and Avatar fame.

The kicks aren't that different from KMA kicking skills. They're different to be sure but not all that different & nothing out of the ordinary or spectacular. The biggest difference I've noticed & practiced in the past is CMA uses all their kicks in their sets. When I was TKD years ago & practicing the Pyang-ahn sets, we had almsot no kicks in them to speak of. Yet at drill time, we were practicing kicks that we never saw in our sets.

 

[Twin Fist]

cuz koreans had no sets, so they used the shotokan forms, which didnt have many kicks and renamed them.

 

[clfsean]

Yep knew that. With the Pyang-ahns though, they fall back to Shorin-ryu & Pinans rather than Shotokan & Heians in form, practice & application. At least they did at my school.

However I haven't seen many of the current TKD forms with the kicks practiced & demo'd in them either.

In CMA you see the kicks practiced in forms as well as drills. I was making a reference to an earlier post (should've quoted it by dancingalone) that made mention of obscure kicks. There's nothing really obscure about CMA kicking skills compared to other MAs (KMA in this thread). The biggest difference is in CMA the kicks are practiced & seen in the forms. The trick is not all kicks in CMAs are visible as kicks. That may make it "obscure" to the general public or non-CMA practitioners, but the kicks are there.

 

[dancingalone]

Yep knew that. With the Pyang-ahns though, they fall back to Shorin-ryu & Pinans rather than Shotokan & Heians in form, practice & application. At least they did at my school.

Korean systems that use the Pyung Ahns definitely come from the Heians, because they follow the same numbering convention as Shotokan, i.e. Pinan Nidan and Shodan were reversed in Japanese systems. Another hint of the Japanese origins: if you are using a side kick in Pyung Ahn #2 and #4, you're also following the Japanese model. Okinawan karate uses a front kick instead.

In CMA you see the kicks practiced in forms as well as drills. I was making a reference to an earlier post (should've quoted it by dancingalone) that made mention of obscure kicks. There's nothing really obscure about CMA kicking skills compared to other MAs (KMA in this thread). The biggest difference is in CMA the kicks are practiced & seen in the forms. The trick is not all kicks in CMAs are visible as kicks. That may make it "obscure" to the general public or non-CMA practitioners, but the kicks are there.

Yes, that's precisely the point I was making. A lot of the flowery leg movements in Fanzi are kicks, albeit 'obscured' compared to more direct kicking methods found in KMA or karate. Are we disagreeing? I don't think so.

 

[SJON]

Interesting thread.

I'd like to go back to a point that was made about needing to teach a lot of different kicks because the 4 or 5 favourites that are right for one person may not be right for another. I believe this is flawed.

First, let's be clear on context. One thing is sport, in which an individual may indeed favour a particular technique like a sliding hook kick or a jumping wheel kick, which are not one of the basic four or five that everyone uses. Something completely different is self-defence.

The only times I've seen kicks being used successfully in a fight were (a) low kicks by trained MAists and (b) kicks to a downed opponent. On the other hand, I've seen several people - competent TKDists among them - fall over when attempting mid- or high kicks in a real fight. They always fall over because (1) the distance is always too short in SD and (2) the opponent is always charging forwards and trying to grab.

I would suggest that the kicks that work for SD are the same for everyone. Most important by far is the front kick and its variations - snap, thrust, stamp, knee strike - mainly to the legs and groin. In second place come the side kick and round kick, also to the legs. Finally, maybe the back kick, to the knees of someone approaching from behind. No hook kicks, no spinning kicks, no crescent kicks, no axe kicks - I mean, in what circumstances, bearing in mind points (1) and (2) above, could they possibly be preferable or more effective that the basic front/side/round kicks?

One thing I am really tired of is the "it works if you train hard enough". What does that mean? It CAN work IF you spend years perfecting it, IF you're lucky and IF a number of variables beyond your control coincide? No thanks, not for me - at least not when the penalty for failure may be somebody grinding my face into the tarmac with his heel. I just don't feel that kind of moral obligation to demonstrate the signature kicking skills of TKD in a context for which they were never really intended.

 

[Aefibird]

Well, I was told when I first started martial arts that my legs were always going to be longer than my opponents arms so to use my kicks to keep them from punching me, if they couldn't get near they couldn't connect. My legs, probably as many womens are, tend also to be stronger than my arms. I certainly can kick harder than I can straight punch though backfists are pretty good.
It's not a scientific thing of course I just find it better to keep kicking people away from me until I want to take them down.

Personally, I've had the same experience and I'm 5' 2". My leg techniques are much more powerful than my punches (even though my punching is pretty strong for a woman). I also prefer kicking techniques when fighting/sparring as it means that it keeps my opponent at a greater distance from me than if I'm stood trading blows with my fists.

 

[exile]

II just don't feel that kind of moral obligation to demonstrate the signature kicking skills of TKD in a context for which they were never really intended.

I think I actually saw one article in some MA magazine (figures, eh?) that pointed out that since TKDists have all these fancy kicking techs available, it seems a waste not to use them in a real SD situation, so then what kind of situation would they be appropriate for? It then proceeded to identify, with the usual high production values/low realism photos you see in such articles, a number of very improbable attacks, or very low-percentage responses to more likely attacks, that would allow you to defend yourself with kicks normally reserved for ring sparring situation, or more likely, demos. It struck me what a ludicrous case of horse/cart inversion that was... but it's true: I think a lot of people really think that since the kicks are there, and since TKD is supposed to have SD content, the logical thing is to figure out ways to use manifestly impractical kicks to respond to all-too-practical street violence. Very much the wrong way to think about it all, I'd say...

 

[IcemanSK]

I think I actually saw one article in some MA magazine (figures, eh?) that pointed out that since TKDists have all these fancy kicking techs available, it seems a waste not to use them in a real SD situation, so then what kind of situation would they be appropriate for? It then proceeded to identify, with the usual high production values/low realism photos you see in such articles, a number of very improbable attacks, or very low-percentage responses to more likely attacks, that would allow you to defend yourself with kicks normally reserved for ring sparring situation, or more likely, demos. It struck me what a ludicrous case of horse/cart inversion that was... but it's true: I think a lot of people really think that since the kicks are there, and since TKD is supposed to have SD content, the logical thing is to figure out ways to use manifestly impractical kicks to respond to all-too-practical street violence. Very much the wrong way to think about it all, I'd say...

Sadly, this just goes to show that someone is more interested in what would sell magazines than what an SD reality might be. My guess is the same magazine had an article the next month on the percetages of different techniques in real SD situations & how high kicks were very low percentage techniques.

 

[clfsean]

Korean systems that use the Pyung Ahns definitely come from the Heians, because they follow the same numbering convention as Shotokan, i.e. Pinan Nidan and Shodan were reversed in Japanese systems. Another hint of the Japanese origins: if you are using a side kick in Pyung Ahn #2 and #4, you're also following the Japanese model. Okinawan karate uses a front kick instead.

No side kicks in the ones I learned.

Yes, that's precisely the point I was making. A lot of the flowery leg movements in Fanzi are kicks, albeit 'obscured' compared to more direct kicking methods found in KMA or karate. Are we disagreeing? I don't think so.

Not on that point. But in the the arts that may have had an influence on KMA... the different flavors of Chang Quan the kicks are more openly evident. That's why I posted the vid of BSL. The kicks are plain to see & pretty straight forward. Chou Jiao, Fanzi Quan, Di Tang Quan, etc... yeah the kicks aren't "as evident". I was just pointing out that CMA kicks large in part are very evident, like K/J/O...MA.

 

[rabbit]

All we need is a front kick for grion shots, round kicks to take out the legs, and stomp kicks to prevent attacker from getting up.

For point sparring we need as many as possible.

 

[rmclain]

Shin Han-seung got his start with Song Suk-ki after he and Grandmaster Kim Soo demonstrated some Tae Kyun to him at the Kyong Hoe Ru (inside of the government building), around 1958 - 1960. Grandmaster Kim indicated that the photos they took (provided in the link in my previous post) were the only techniques that Song Duk-ki remembered (why they documented as much as possible with the photos - so no more would get lost). In the late part of the 1960's , Shin Han-seung began teaching.

Grandmaster Kim Soo grew up as a neighbor of Song Duk-ki starting in 1953 (address was 15 Chebu-dong, Jongro-Gu Seoul, Korea). He said that Mr. Song would always ask him to "play" tae kyun with him - which was a sort-of free-sparring dance. But, Grandmaster Kim wanted to be a serious martial artist and not "play." So, he lost interest after awhile even though he would practice occasionally with Mr. Song. They maintained a friendship until Mr. Song's death and Grandmaster Kim saw the importance of what Mr. Song had preserved, which is why the photographs were taken and his help to get Mr. Song recognized as a cultural asset.

None of this is meant to take anything away from Mr. Song, just to put into perspective the emphasis of Tae kyun as told by Song Duk Ki.

I wish I could have met him.

R. McLain

Song Duk Ki had a student, Shin Han Seung, that he taught for many years. I would love to see, if any exist, video clips of Shin Han Seung from years back doing whatever kicking he learned from Song Duk Ki. Remember, by the time the rest of the world caught up with him, Song was an old man, most likely incapable of really showing true Taekkyon kicking at this point. It is not unusual at all for traditional Koeans to downplay how much technique they really know.
Actually, I did see a clip of Shin demonstrating a form he created. I don't know when it was made, although Shin died in the 80's I believe. This form contained front kicks, high kicks, and jumping kicks. I doubt Shin studied Taekwondo, and Koreans of their era were notorious for not sharing their knowlege with just anybody. Korea was not called the Hermit Kingdom for nothing. Bottom line: I have a feeling the Taekkyon of Son and Shin contained more of these techniques than people realize.

 

[Kacey]

On one side we all know TKD is mainly based on some of the best kicks in the world with that in mind how many kicks does one truely need? I mean seriously we have so many, so much more than alot of arts. Why is that?

Every art has it's own area of focus, the skill or set of skills that it emphasizes over others; in TKD, that area is kicks. That being said, however, there are really only 4 kicks: front, side, turning (roundhouse), and back. All other kicks are variations on one of those; it is those variations that exist in greater number in TKD, and which are emphasized as the primary area of concentration in the art.

 

[Kwanjang]

I love to Kick! even those fancy jump an spinning kicks ( I liked them better when I was in my twenties) For SD I prefer the front kick to solar plexus.

True, they prove difficult to use if some one is rushing you.

As far as SD I prefer to use my hands to strategic targets to try stun them so i can finish with a power kick- which is easier to pull off when someone is stunned. ( I have unfortunatley had to do this)

But real SD as we all know has many variables! If someone gave me a chance to grab their hand- I am sure a wrist lock may be in order.

I enjoy practicing a wide variety of kicks, as I see them as tools that must be constantly polished.