Do you think TKD is an integral MA?

[Manny]

I do, the problem we have is TKD in general is not taught like it. For several years we have been taught only kicks, you know improving kicks,inventing new ones, footwork and almost all these is sport oriented. TKD as a sport as evolved very nice to the point that it is a very specific full contact sport,this is not bad at all,TKD is a very nice kidie sport and kids rule in the martial arts world.

Again, olimpics are not bad, and all the local,state,regional and national tournaments are good too but so many effort towards this is hurting the TKD as a self defense/martial art.

For example,in the mixed martial arts meeting I go every month (the next on october 8) I have realice for example that some aikido manipulations are into tkd curriculum, some karate techs are the same in TKD,some sweeps and throws from judo are part integral of the martial art of TKD.

In the kidie and teen/moom classes sambonim does not teach sweeps,throws and barely joint manipulations,the class is about kicking having a glimpsepse of self defense, always the same techs (no more than 5 or 6).By contrast in the male class I try to focus not in the sport/tournament thing but in the self defense part,so basically the class that I teach is not only kicking,I focus in many techs and kicking is only a part. The kicking we do is basic I mean the basic kicks with some spining ones (not many), the kicks are used as a power tool and we do some hand techs and in the one steps and ho-shi-sul I try to use as many parts of the body I can.

So I can say the TKD I teach is the not sporty one, and I am very glad to teach that way,maybe I am not the fastest or amazing kicker but I like my TKD to be more trauma oriented than a flanboyant one.

Sometimes as my good friend Kong Soo Do tells me maybe I am doing KSD or Kwon Bop because of my aproach to TKD, I really don-t know,maybe I am just a dinosaur that does not want to evolve in something fashionable or more modern.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

I still find it remarkable that ive never actually "seen" the Kick-Happy Trend.
The only reason Im even aware of it, is the Internet.

It isnt a matter of Evolving.
Its a matter of Changing, as a Governing Body sees fit.
That isnt necessarily Good or Bad.
Im inclined to think the Sport Direction to TKD is not Harmful, so long as it is kept separate to the Martial Art.
Unfortunately, it seems this isnt the Case as often as it should be.

Sport without Martial Form is Sport.
It can be used for Self Defense, sure.
But debatably; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtFclzN8iTg&feature=related - You only need Six Magical Moves to Defend Yourself.

I feel that TKD, like many Arts, has been Pacified, by some Organisations, over time.
I started to see these types of Sport Gearing changes occurring (VERY Prominently might I add) where I was Training not too long ago, and swiftly changed Organisations.
Ive no interest in learning a Sport.

In any Case, its good that youre trying to be a bit of a Traditionalist (Enough to maintain values - Not so much as to prevent actual advancement).

EDIT: I just realised the First Line and Line 15 Contradict each other at one point.
Ill clarify, that I havent seen it, with that exception. Just habit, leading Me to forget that.

 

[dancingalone]

I see tae kwon do as a generic, umbrella term for the Korean striking martial arts which grew out of karate. There have been various eras of development in tae kwon do where different groups or individuals controlled the direction in main: first the kwans, then General Choi and the ITF, and now the KKW is the most visible driver. The type of tae kwon do you practice depends from which era your 'founder' stemmed from.

There is sufficient room in TKD for you to practice anything you'd like. If you want to add throws and hapkido-type locking, fine - it's been done many times before. If you want to practice Korean karate with a focus on SD applications, there's plenty of other people in the same boat. And if you like Olympic sparring, well there is a whole international competition circuit set up by the WTF for you.

There is no TKD prison that forces us to stay within a certain area. TKD like any other martial art is about choice and tradeoffs. We should practice whatever we enjoy and not worry about what kind of TKD it is.

 

[RobinTKD]

I see tae kwon do as a generic, umbrella term for the Korean striking martial arts which grew out of karate. There have been various eras of development in tae kwon do where different groups or individuals controlled the direction in main: first the kwans, then General Choi and the ITF, and now the KKW is the most visible driver. The type of tae kwon do you practice depends from which era your 'founder' stemmed from.

There is sufficient room in TKD for you to practice anything you'd like. If you want to add throws and hapkido-type locking, fine - it's been done many times before. If you want to practice Korean karate with a focus on SD applications, there's plenty of other people in the same boat. And if you like Olympic sparring, well there is a whole international competition circuit set up by the WTF for you.

There is no TKD prison that forces us to stay within a certain area. TKD like any other martial art is about choice and tradeoffs. We should practice whatever we enjoy and not worry about what kind of TKD it is.

This is one of the best things I've read on this forum, I honestly couldn't agree more!

Also Manny, kudos for teaching it how you want to teach it. I too have no interest in either WTF or ITF competitions, WTF because hands are largely irrelevant to scoring points (notice i said largely not completely!), and ITF because its semi contact, and i don't want to be trained to attack someone lightly. We study ITF TKD forms, and wear the badge and uniform, but compared to the 2 main ITF organisations in the UK (TAGB and UKTA), we are obviously much more Karate influenced, its why I (so far) seem to be doing well cross-training in Goju-Ryu and Judo.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There is no TKD prison that forces us to stay within a certain area. TKD like any other martial art is about choice and tradeoffs. We should practice whatever we enjoy and not worry about what kind of TKD it is.

Agreed that there is no prison. I do believe that if you choose to practice some things and calls those things "TKD" you would be mislabeling them. Weapons would be a simple example. I think ground grappling would be another.

Some TKD systems include a nominal amount of joint locks and throws, but it seems mostly done as an afterthought. Consider the meaning of T-K, d ad it is apparent it was meant to be a striking art.

 

[NSRTKD]

We do a lot of takedowns.. and arm work and blocking work. I'm with Cyriacus- I only know about the kick-happy trend because of the internet.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I still find it remarkable that ive never actually "seen" the Kick-Happy Trend.
The only reason Im even aware of it, is the Internet.

It isnt a matter of Evolving.
Its a matter of Changing, as a Governing Body sees fit.
That isnt necessarily Good or Bad.
Im inclined to think the Sport Direction to TKD is not Harmful, so long as it is kept separate to the Martial Art.
Unfortunately, it seems this isnt the Case as often as it should be.

Sport without Martial Form is Sport.
It can be used for Self Defense, sure.
But debatably; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtFclzN8iTg&feature=related - You only need Six Magical Moves to Defend Yourself.

I feel that TKD, like many Arts, has been Pacified, by some Organisations, over time.
I started to see these types of Sport Gearing changes occurring (VERY Prominently might I add) where I was Training not too long ago, and swiftly changed Organisations.
Ive no interest in learning a Sport.

In any Case, its good that youre trying to be a bit of a Traditionalist (Enough to maintain values - Not so much as to prevent actual advancement).

EDIT: I just realised the First Line and Line 15 Contradict each other at one point.
Ill clarify, that I havent seen it, with that exception. Just habit, leading Me to forget that.

Funny that you say you havent seen the "kick happy trend". I have said that also on here for quite some time and like you, the only reason Im even aware of it is the internet. All the tkd clubs I have actually seen in my area teach a very well rounded martial art. I did karate as a kid and I dont notice a lot of differences between what I did then and what I do now in tkd. Ive certainly noticed that tkdists are generally faster and are better kickers, but not at the expense of any other techs. I notice you, like me, are from australia so maybe its just a regional thing.

 

[Cyriacus]

Funny that you say you havent seen the "kick happy trend". I have said that also on here for quite some time and like you, the only reason Im even aware of it is the internet. All the tkd clubs I have actually seen in my area teach a very well rounded martial art. I did karate as a kid and I dont notice a lot of differences between what I did then and what I do now in tkd. Ive certainly noticed that tkdists are generally faster and are better kickers, but not at the expense of any other techs. I notice you, like me, are from australia so maybe its just a regional thing.

Perhaps.
But then, the Internet also tells Me about all our Sport Dojangs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxy-4OVLoY

It is however, possible that there are less of these Dojangs.
I know for certain that the KKW Standard has a comparatively low presence in this Country, and you need to possess a KKW Belt to participate in WTF Bouts, if im not mistaken.

(I cant really think of an inventive way to end this Reply.)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Perhaps.
But then, the Internet also tells Me about all our Sport Dojangs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxy-4OVLoY

It is however, possible that there are less of these Dojangs.
I know for certain that the KKW Standard has a comparatively low presence in this Country, and you need to possess a KKW Belt to participate in WTF Bouts, if im not mistaken.

(I cant really think of an inventive way to end this Reply.)

True. I have also found that a kkw certifate doesnt seem to have any more or less relevence than any other tkd certificate in this country just from what Ive seen. Most people at our club honestly wouldnt even know what the kukkiwon is. In fact, I would imagine if I asked every one of the 4000 students at our club "what is the kukkiwon?", I truly believe that less than 100 of them could actually answer the question. My former instructor is a 6th dan who has trained continuously for 35 years and I had to explain to him what the kukkiwon is. From what I read on here, that wouldnt happen in other countries.

 

[Cyriacus]

True. I have also found that a kkw certifate doesnt seem to have any more or less relevence than any other tkd certificate in this country just from what Ive seen. Most people at our club honestly wouldnt even know what the kukkiwon is. In fact, I would imagine if I asked every one of the 4000 students at our club "what is the kukkiwon?", I truly believe that less than 100 of them could actually answer the question. My former instructor is a 6th dan who has trained continuously for 35 years and I had to explain to him what the kukkiwon is. From what I read on here, that wouldnt happen in other countries.

Namely not the US, where it seems that there are a LOT of KWW Dojangs.
And the Organisation just generally seems better known.

Fun Fact: I learned that the KKW Existed watching the Discovery Channel.
Otherwise, I just figured that TKD governed itself, and the WTF arranged Tournaments. This was before I begun Training in it, of course. But still.
It goes to show

 

[oftheherd1]

...

For example,in the mixed martial arts meeting I go every month (the next on october 8) I have realice for example that some aikido manipulations are into tkd curriculum, some karate techs are the same in TKD,some sweeps and throws from judo are part integral of the martial art of TKD.


...

So I can say the TKD I teach is the not sporty one, and I am very glad to teach that way,maybe I am not the fastest or amazing kicker but I like my TKD to be more trauma oriented than a flanboyant one.
..

Manny

Those are the two paragraphs I like most. I have been saying ever since I joined MT that the TKD forms contain some Hapkido (or Aikido, they share some things). They have just been forgotten and are often called art. Bleh. But I haven't seen anybody agree or disagree until your post.

Also, martial arts are supposed to be just that. For competition, some changes are understandable, as in no bare knuckles in boxing, and no fighting until one opponent can't get back up. But if you are only dancing around on a mat, why not go all out and join a dance class?

Keep up with what you like. I would attend your classes gladly over the others you mentioned.

 

[dancingalone]

Agreed that there is no prison. I do believe that if you choose to practice some things and calls those things "TKD" you would be mislabeling them. Weapons would be a simple example. I think ground grappling would be another.

Some TKD systems include a nominal amount of joint locks and throws, but it seems mostly done as an afterthought. Consider the meaning of T-K, d ad it is apparent it was meant to be a striking art.

I don't know that I agree, Mr. Weiss. TKD loosely translates to the Way of the Hand and Foot, correct? That seems fairly vague and generic to me and could comprise virtually anything. My vision of TKD has it as complete a martial art as any other out there. This means adding some close range combat capabilities, some standing grappling ability (although I would not object to adding some prone defenses too and I do it myself), and I don't think it unreasonable to add in some weapons study too considering the Korean military heritage TKD has. As most of us don't have military experience with bayonets and what not, it's not a bad thing to add a weapon or two from kobudo, like the bo or nunchaku if we want.

In short, I see TKD as a blended art in of itself with a strong Korean cultural overlay, but the Korean part of it does not preclude acceptance of knowledge from other sources, nor should it given the historical background of how TKD itself came together. Now if we want to explain that our bo form is actually Tokumine No Kun from Okinawan kobudo so that our students are more knowledgeable, that is fine and something I support.

 

[Manny]

Those are the two paragraphs I like most. I have been saying ever since I joined MT that the TKD forms contain some Hapkido (or Aikido, they share some things). They have just been forgotten and are often called art. Bleh. But I haven't seen anybody agree or disagree until your post.

Also, martial arts are supposed to be just that. For competition, some changes are understandable, as in no bare knuckles in boxing, and no fighting until one opponent can't get back up. But if you are only dancing around on a mat, why not go all out and join a dance class?

Keep up with what you like. I would attend your classes gladly over the others you mentioned.

Thank you!!! I must say I am more a martial artman than a TKD man,why is this? because I love Martial Arts in general nomatter specifically I train/do/teach TKD. I like to interactuate with other MA and learn new stuff from them, that's why I did some other MA.I am open minded so if for example aikido has some nice stuff that I can incorporate to my TKD I do it! I did crosstrain in Kenpo and some of the techs I incorporated them too to my TKD curriculum,in fact there is a chance I willreturn kenpo classes next week and I will atend the next MMA session we have once a month.

Manny