What conidtions was TKD made in?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 39746
  • Start date
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
Perhaps a bad title? anyway

I read in a book about looking at in what conditions a martial art was made in to truely understand how it works, so what conditions was TKD made in for Korea? Terrain, social conditions etc. I presume weapons were banned so that explains it being mainly unarmed? It was made in the 50's or around there so it probably had the Korean war in mind and i know it was used as a patriotic thing for Koreans to call their own post Japanese occupation.

Hmm, but thinking about some calling it a military art, why would it place so much emphasis on kicks? Why wouldn't it factor in firearms at early stages since it was present during the Korean war?



But anyway, those are just some thoughts to get the thread going. (i know it has evolved over the years but it should be a interesting discussion anyway)
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
No idea. But don't agree at all with that statement that you need to know all that to understand it.
 

CB Jones

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,013
Location
Saline
It originated in the 40s right after World War II and consisted mainly of 9 original kwans. The Kwans would unifiy later on and go by the name TKD.

Nine Kwans
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
Perhaps a bad title? anyway

I read in a book about looking at in what conditions a martial art was made in to truely understand how it works, so what conditions was TKD made in for Korea? Terrain, social conditions etc. I presume weapons were banned so that explains it being mainly unarmed? It was made in the 50's or around there so it probably had the Korean war in mind and i know it was used as a patriotic thing for Koreans to call their own post Japanese occupation.

Hmm, but thinking about some calling it a military art, why would it place so much emphasis on kicks? Why wouldn't it factor in firearms at early stages since it was present during the Korean war?



But anyway, those are just some thoughts to get the thread going. (i know it has evolved over the years but it should be a interesting discussion anyway)

Your going to get the same type answers as folks that study modern Japanese arts that are derived from older arts.
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
Why not do your own research. Look at different sources and then formulate your own opinions.
Don't get to hung up on lineages tho as ummm well that can cause controversy and get heated at times.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
Perhaps a bad title? anyway

I read in a book about looking at in what conditions a martial art was made in to truely understand how it works, so what conditions was TKD made in for Korea? Terrain, social conditions etc. I presume weapons were banned so that explains it being mainly unarmed? It was made in the 50's or around there so it probably had the Korean war in mind and i know it was used as a patriotic thing for Koreans to call their own post Japanese occupation.

Hmm, but thinking about some calling it a military art, why would it place so much emphasis on kicks? Why wouldn't it factor in firearms at early stages since it was present during the Korean war?



But anyway, those are just some thoughts to get the thread going. (i know it has evolved over the years but it should be a interesting discussion anyway)
I agree that context of design development is important in understanding the how's and why's of any art, so I Note with some disdain that many asia n arts are more logical in movement and stance, if you are shorter, have a lower centre of mass and Or shorter legs, which is indeed logical.

But you may be barking up the wrong tree, tkd, they wanted their own ma, that was a bit like karTee,coz Thats what they knew, but wasn't infactjapanese, as they were a bit down on the jaPs, at the time, much in the same way that German Shepard dogs were renamed s in the UK after the war with germany.

So they took karate and made it a bit different, if they changed it for the better or just changed it for the sake of it, is up for debate, since then if course it's developed further and further away from the art on which it was based, possibly making it more sport and less self defence,

I like tkd, but it really doesn't suit my body type or rather my lack of hip flexability​
 
Last edited:

_Simon_

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
4,421
Reaction score
2,950
Location
Australia
A dude once told me TKD was developed and used to kick soldiers off horses. No joke!
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,224
Location
In the dojo
A dude once told me TKD was developed and used to kick soldiers off horses. No joke!
Ive heard that too. Why are people so stupid?

Then again, you dont know what you dont know. I wonder how many minor absurdities I accept simply because I dont care enough to contemplate whats being said and/or verify the truth.
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
A dude once told me TKD was developed and used to kick soldiers off horses. No joke!

I guess some may well believe that lol.

It actually is quite surprising at some of the things that are said about many of the arts and their reasons for being founded.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,583
Reaction score
927
Your readings should include "A Killing Art" and General Choi's 2 Volume Biography. As far as "Military Art" agreed. Since the dawn of time no military sent soldiers into battle without weapons.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,959
Reaction score
1,057
TKD was heavily based on Shotokan karate originally and used the same katas. Later, there was a push for more national pride and trying to recreate its own historical roots. The art then evolved into a more Korean martial art and incorporated Taekkyon (both an art and a sport emphasizing kicking movements) into it and trace their lineage through that now. Many branches omit the Japanese roots altogether and claim that TKD is purely a Korean art.

TKD further morphed into different organizations and some will emphasize the "martial" aspect of their art while the WTF's main emphasis overall is TKD as a sport.
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
3,141
Reaction score
1,672
korean arts are basically karate that evolved a little different. why do they do high kicks?...because they can and it looks cool.
we all look for deep and sometimes existential meaning in stuff. most often the reality is not what we wanted.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
Your readings should include "A Killing Art" and General Choi's 2 Volume Biography. As far as "Military Art" agreed. Since the dawn of time no military sent soldiers into battle without weapons.

Funnily enough, the first ones bookmarked and was on my gift list once. I might see if i can order it now actually pending how much money i have. As for the second one, is that going to be easy to find? Because for the encyclopedia of TKD made by Choi i just found a PDF.

If someone can correct me if i am wrong, doesn't the south Korean army use TKD as a form of discipline rather than actual combative instruction now days? In addition to this, does anyone else find it slightly amusing they call it a military style and have do in their name? When "do" usually denotes self betterment rather than combative skill. (at least that's Japanese)


Also this thread is turning out quite nice, keep up the responses and discussion. I do have another question, is there any word to refer to the type of TKD which focused more on combat than sport/self betterment, or is it just cited as early/combative? Im used to the Japanese styles of where there is a do style there is a jitsu it was based off, or would that be the Kwans?




In addition I feel like i should add more context if some people find it confusing, i picked this up in a book on arnis i got. He cited the different terrain making each school/peoples emphasize teaching different things, like the ones who live in the flat lands would fight with staffs, the ones who live in the over grown areas will use mainly thrusts, the ones around a muddy area would be very linear etc. In addition to that the people of the Philippines were used to being armed and adapted when people forced them to give them up hence why its weapons based.He also viewed it as important to look at terrain etc as to why people fight like they do.
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
3,141
Reaction score
1,672
In addition I feel like i should add more context if some people find it confusing, i picked this up in a book on arnis i got. He cited the different terrain making each school/peoples emphasize teaching different things, like the ones who live in the flat lands would fight with staffs, the ones who live in the over grown areas will use mainly thrusts, the ones around a muddy area would be very linear etc. In addition to that the people of the Philippines were used to being armed and adapted when people forced them to give them up hence why its weapons based.He also viewed it as important to look at terrain etc as to why people fight like they do.
your referring to the evolution of human combative behavior. which holds true, to a certain degree. but you need to look at it from a much broader view, more encompassing. your looking at to small of a segment. so wolves evolved to adapt to their surroundings. dogs on the other hand were not a result of natural selection but rather human induced genetic modification. TKD is like looking at a beagles that were raised in a puppy farm and shipped all over the world through Amazon. a far cry from the evolution of wolves.
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
Rat do bear in mind that what has already been said that TKD has heavy Japanese influence as does Hapkido etc that you can easily find out about be researching on the internet.

If you are looking at the Japanese "jutsu" do bear in mind that even they have evolved and changed so you are not going to find an art that is the same as it was way back when.

Also be careful how you interpret "DO" as it can be interpreted in different ways
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
Funnily enough, the first ones bookmarked and was on my gift list once. I might see if i can order it now actually pending how much money i have. As for the second one, is that going to be easy to find? Because for the encyclopedia of TKD made by Choi i just found a PDF.

If someone can correct me if i am wrong, doesn't the south Korean army use TKD as a form of discipline rather than actual combative instruction now days? In addition to this, does anyone else find it slightly amusing they call it a military style and have do in their name? When "do" usually denotes self betterment rather than combative skill. (at least that's Japanese)


Also this thread is turning out quite nice, keep up the responses and discussion. I do have another question, is there any word to refer to the type of TKD which focused more on combat than sport/self betterment, or is it just cited as early/combative? Im used to the Japanese styles of where there is a do style there is a jitsu it was based off, or would that be the Kwans?




In addition I feel like i should add more context if some people find it confusing, i picked this up in a book on arnis i got. He cited the different terrain making each school/peoples emphasize teaching different things, like the ones who live in the flat lands would fight with staffs, the ones who live in the over grown areas will use mainly thrusts, the ones around a muddy area would be very linear etc. In addition to that the people of the Philippines were used to being armed and adapted when people forced them to give them up hence why its weapons based.He also viewed it as important to look at terrain etc as to why people fight like they do.
I think you can take it a bit far to be honest, I think there maybe some differences from climate/ terrain, certainly jungle fighting is different from desert fighting,

But Hi.e. many muddy area are there that are muddy all year round were they haven't invested in tarmac, most martial arts in a recognisable form are not really that old

I also struggle to see the tkw,isn't combat argument, it may have be come a bit kick heavy, but if in combat you take a good tkw,kick to the abdomen, then few people will still be standing
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
Oh and just because a Japanese Art has "Jutsu" on it doesn't necessarily mean it is Koryu
 

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
I think you can take it a bit far to be honest, I think there maybe some differences from climate/ terrain, certainly jungle fighting is different from desert fighting,

But Hi.e. many muddy area are there that are muddy all year round were they haven't invested in tarmac, most martial arts in a recognisable form are not really that old

I also struggle to see the tkw,isn't combat argument, it may have be come a bit kick heavy, but if in combat you take a good tkw,kick to the abdomen, then few people will still be standing

He might be meaning that when the original ryu were training students they practiced on different terrain and in different conditions. That said they were actually having to apply it in situations of battle and life and death.

Some of the Arts do go back a ways (lineage - ok some are disputable) but what they teach now is not what they taught way back when bits will have been added and taken out or forgotten or just plain lost. It more an academic exercise now looking that far back than anything else imo
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
He might be meaning that when the original ryu were training students they practiced on different terrain and in different conditions. That said they were actually having to apply it in situations of battle and life and death.

Some of the Arts do go back a ways (lineage - ok some are disputable) but what they teach now is not what they taught way back when bits will have been added and taken out or forgotten or just plain lost. It more an academic exercise now looking that far back than anything else imo
no he defiantly means that the prevailing terrain influence the movement of the art, which as above has merit, but not that much, unless you live in a swamp, or other extreme environment, I've had people tell me that " this style" has short steps as it was developed for fighting in boats, which I just though was nonsence, it has short steps because the people who developed it had short legs, relative to westoners a100 years later.

I think there's a cultural difference at the bottom of the difference between the floaty dancey, Chinese styles and the hard angular, military style,drills of some japanes e arts
 
Last edited:

now disabled

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
1,443
Reaction score
200
no he defiantly means that the prevailing terrain influence the movement of the art, which as above has merit, but not that much, unless you live in a swamp, or other extreme environment, I've had people tell me that " this style" has short steps as it was developed for fighting in boats, which I just though was nonsence, it has short steps because the people who developed it had short legs, relative to westoners a100 years later.

I think there's a cultural difference at the bottom of the difference between the floaty dancey, Chinese styles and the hard angular, military style,drills of some japanes e arts


Ummm yes and no lol

As said before some of the claims made are not always true

Not all the Japanese arts are angular lol and hard is not the easiest word to properly define as it means one thing to one and something else to another.
Military style I do see where your coming from there and yes some of the two man kata do look very angular and robotic at times but that does depend on who is doing them and what ryu they come from lol. That said I don't know and I would doubt that any of the swordsmen of today will have ever tested their arts in reality so that in itself might lead to more robotic movements etc but there again it depends who and what you are watching and your opinion of said in the first place lol
 

Latest Discussions

Top