American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Rich Parsons]

Wow,

Okay first I am trying to answer questions here!!!! I wish someone would go back and add up all the questions that have been asked of me here. What are the rhetorical ones and what are the ones that are in reality just taking shoots at me, and then you have to try to find the ones that are real questions with true merit. Now that being said I am sure that some I have just forgotten to respond to, Sorry!

As to apology, I have tried not to get upset with to constant attacks but it is getting a little tedious and childish. (Would someone also count the personal attacks on me and what I do) Again I am not trying to make people mad here just trying to have a conversation. If I have upset people here I do indeed apologize here and now. I just leave it at that.

As to the questions: Mr. Parsons you did not restate your question here so I am not sure what it was, for that I am sorry. Brother John (whom I’m liking our conversation better now) said something to the effect: How I would be reducing rank or how to achieve it.

As you know I have spoke of this before (like people talking about katas more than once) at other times, I try to hold off on how I am doing things as I don’t wish to influence others on how the should achieve this.

This I think should be done slowly. Belts were not placed into the arts overnight and they will not and should not leave that way. Many people will also refuse to give them up and that is ok too. This alone is not just mine thought of reducing rank so please don’t just see this as my pet project. This if/and when it does happen does not need to have my name attached to it for some type of credit. I don’t need or am I looking for it.

I have talked to people about how dropping rank all together could hurt schools, supply companies, manufacturing companies and more. Belts are big business and there is a lot of money being made by the people that make and sell them. Jobs could be lost and business could close down. I do not wish people to lose their jobs or divorces to occur due to someone loosing their job and having the family financial matters become to much.

We must educate our students on the importance of training, defense, fitness, traditional or what ever you see as most important. This continued education along with a slow reduction will not be so threatening to people and will be meet with less resistance.

As to what we are doing at this time.

We are at the reduced 5 Dan system now (I think I stated that earlier).
August 15 is the date set to reduce three levels of rank from our under-belts structure.
There will be a greater reduction of the kyu ranks in the future as well as the Dan ranks.

80+ years (for karate) of a habit is hard to remove all at once.

I hope this help illustrate more of what we are trying to achieve.

We have discussed on this tread many ways rank has and can be abused, this is all set to help lessen this horrible practice.

Later,
Brad

Brad thanks for proving my point that you are completely lazy and insulting us and others here on net. Not to mention your instructors and your own students.

Here is the link:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=589083&postcount=83

And for a complete waste of time and through put:

What does one do who studies a traditional art that has no rank. No titles. And only Play or fighting or skill level determines order, and that might change on different techniques to a much longer period over time?

What does one do when others use a title and say no, but they still do it any ways?

What is your opinion on these points?

Thanks

 

[Flatlander]

Hello all, :wavey:

Why would someone create an "art" with a specific rank structure and then subsequently choose to change it? I think that it would be due to a couple of possibilities:

1. Scrutiny from their students or the general public that the status quo was structured in such a way as to inflate income.
2. A desire to create parity between one's rank and that of others of higher rank. For example, if person A were a 5th dan (instructor) in a 10 dan system, and the system were 'reduced' to a 2 dan system (say assistant instructor and instructor), person A has just achieved the highest ranking, putting them on par with 10th dans (founders and grandmasters) in other systems. Nifty.

That's it. I cannot think of another logical reason for a 'founder' to change a ranking structure that they had instituted.

If one were genuinely motivated to disassociate themselves from a belt system, why do it gradually? What purpose does a slow evolution serve? It seems to me that all it does is delay the inevitable. What is the value in that? Perhaps to ensure that one's students don't become offended due to a loss in relative hierarchical position relative to their peers.... but then, if the argument to "reduce" is so compelling, surely this could be articulated to one's own students. Surely....

So why do we still have rank and the old belt system? You would have thought that when the Korean people wished to kick all the Japanese things out of their arts they would have gotten rid of this rank structure. So it appears to this writer that familiarity, fear and a need of self-importance would be the reasons that many have kept the old way of doing things.

Indeed....

Well some will give up rank when forming a new art and some may cut down on the number of belts and others will teach the true value of rank to their students.

And which are you doing? Seems to me that you fall into the 'cut down on the number of belts' camp. Given your obvious knowledge of 'the true value of rank', why aren't you sharing this with your students?

I guess the whole thing is, in American arts when forming, blending or creating them, and then looking to its classification, maybe they should think long and hard before just falling back on the old ways.

Yet, you started with a rank structure 26 years ago when you started your art, and are now changing it....

Now a statement: I think that questioning one's motive or agenda is perfectly reasonable. Discussion cannot happen effectively without context.

 

[terryl965]

All of my MT buddies Kasho cannot and will not be direct to any one question. His rank sysytem was and is a joke reducing rank, sure lets see how his students that earned there rank some twenty years ago like what there Master is doing. To me he is saying the rank I gave you is a joke and you do not deserve it, well Kasho for those that have an upper rank are you personaly going to refund all the money they spent with you.. I know I know I will not get an answer he has absolutely no respect for me or my system so I do not deserve an response..
Terry

 

[tradrockrat]

wow.



just... wow.


I try to stay away from this whole end of the forums so I haven't seen this until now, but after reading all... what, 8 pages?... I have to butt in here. I may of course be totally wrong and if it turns out I am, I will step up and appologise to the offended parties publically but...

This sounds like a con - plain and simple. This "rank " thing is presented here as just another flash of bullsh... uh... brilliance in his long and storied career (for more true info on his career, go to his completely articulate and unbiased website - right?). To me it looks like he is using this forum to create what the pro bullsh... scam artists call back story by creating a history of conversation about this "rank" thing.

My totally uninformed opinion? - you got too many chiefs in your system now cause you promoted for money - now you got to figure something out to get a little realism back in your camp and the easiest way is to just get rid of those pesky belts. After all, they already paid you for them, right? This way outsiders will see something a little more realistic. In short, this rant is just a belated attempt to avoid reaping what you've sown over the last quater century. All the negatives of ranking you learned the hard way, didn't you? By fostering them.

One problem? People here ask questions and have a genuine desire to learn. Opps - wrong clientel for your sales pitch. not to mention, the members here strive mightily to treat each other with respect to all backgrounds and arts. By insulting specific arts, you picked the wrong weapon.

Again - if I am wrong - I will appologise just as soon as it is shown that I am

Dan

 

[Kasho]

Great post!!! I enjoyed reading this, although we have a different view I appreciate you sharing it with me and us in a professional manner.

My rank is a fourth Dan, but I hold no rank in our system. As I did say earlier no one would be able to promo me in our art.

Your first questions that you asked before:

1. But what does it benefit the student?? Not a challenge there, just an honest question.
2. Why was rank a hinderance at your school?
3. IF the mindset shifted and rank became TOO important, who's responsibility is it to keep the general mindset of a school on track?
4. IF the focus became rank and not personal development and growth, then that's wrong.....but is the solution removal of rank?
5. OR....couldn't it be a "Getting back on track" mentality in which the standards of the school are strictly upheld???

The curriculum?

Good questions!


#1. The benefit to the student is that the focus can be more on the system, philosophy and techniques.

#2. Not so much in our schools as the students are aware that the belt rank system is a new thing (relatively speaking) as far as the martial way are concerned. But this is where the general public has the misunderstanding of the value of rank and that there are no set standards.

#3. Again not a problem here but this is where much of the abuse comes in by schools and associations. I have heard and seen groups that will not promote you if your student base is to low.

#4. Reduction and education.

#5. Again, unless we have government intervention that is not going to happen across the country. Many could care less about standards when you are talking about money.
I have seen an instructor have students move up in rank on a monthly basis with no test given, pay you money and get the rank. This was someone that held a TKD dan rank but switched to a freestyle system of their own for all the wrong reasons. Bad thing is the WTA wished to have this person and his students join the WTA. The more students the more money!

#5a. Our curriculum will not be affected as far as removing requirements, students will just learn more at one level before they advance.

Our standards are high, in 26 years and after teaching thousands we have only promoted seven people to a Dan rank. The shortest time was two years (A former brown belt in TKD) and the longest was nine and a half years (former green belt in TKD). We do have a basic minimum for promotion but not even ten years will get you that rank if you can not do or know the requirements. There are a lot of traditional people that I know that are friends of mine that think we are a little to strict when it comes to rank.

This is not something that I expect everyone to agree with me on. I do not and appreciate that Brother John acknowledges the abuse and I do respect his version of what rank is as we all draw our own conclusions after many years of seeing what takes place around us.

Take care,
Brad

 

[Brother John]

But what does it benefit the student?? Not a challenge there, just an honest question.

..your answer..

#1. The benefit to the student is that the focus can be more on the system, philosophy and techniques.

I don't see how theres a connection there. The majority of schools I've gone too focus on the system, philosophy, skills, physical cultivation...etc. LONG before anyone 'focuses' on rank. Why does rank need to be removed to do this?
I'm just not seeing how this is a benefit to the student(s).

OR....couldn't it be a "Getting back on track" mentality in which the standards of the school are strictly upheld???

..your answer..

#5. Again, unless we have government intervention that is not going to happen across the country. Many could care less about standards when you are talking about money.
I have seen an instructor have students move up in rank on a monthly basis with no test given, pay you money and get the rank. This was someone that held a TKD dan rank but switched to a freestyle system of their own for all the wrong reasons. Bad thing is the WTA wished to have this person and his students join the WTA. The more students the more money!

You've said before that rank only matters within the school/system or association in which it was given. But in this answer it appears to be that you are concerned with what other people are doing in other schools.
WHY does it matter what others do?
Why in the world would we need "National" standards? I think that each school MUST demand certain standards......and these are the basic criteria for rank.
So why compare yourself to the Joneses???

Your Brother
John

 

[terryl965]

Brother John Well atleast he will answer your question, please ask him for me what happens to those student that have earned rank though him do they loose everything that they have trained for or does his system make alottments for them/
Thanks
Terry

 

[matt.m]

Some organizations give you a belt, that's true; there's a truly nasty McDojo in Denver that offers contracts, which guarantee a certain rank if you show up often enough... and are written such that you continue to pay whether you show up or not.

On the other hand, there are organizations which charge only enough to cover the cost of the testing instructor and materials, and which will fail you if you don't meet their standards for a particular rank. I belong to one such organization: testing fees are assessed to cover the cost of the testing instructor (often from out of state, with seminars held to offset the costs, such as travel expenses) and students fail - one of mine failed her I Dan test, and had to wait at least 6 months to retest... and the retest was free. She passed the second time, but had she failed again and had to retest a second time, it would have remained free.

Many organizations are in the middle; there are standards for testing, but no one really fails... they just get labelled "probationary" until they make up whatever they miss, but people who don't meet the standards are failed, however well that failure is hidden.

Most first-world countries are hierarchical in nature; look at the organization of businesses, of high school and college sports (varsity and junior varsity, for example), seeding in professional and amateur sports, dog and cat shows (and other animals), education... the list goes on. Also, as has been previously discussed, belts demonstrate progress; they provide goals and guidelines for self-improvement; they provide information about who has knowledge/experience and who doesn't - useful for students and instructors alike, as junior students are often intimidated by the most senior, but are willing to go to students just above their own level for assistance.

Does that make the ranking system perfect? Not at all. Ranking systems can (and too often are) be abused, to generate revenue, to provide a false sense of accomplishment, to provide an ego boost for the person at the top, and so on. For some styles, non-ranking is appropriate; for others, it is not. Likewise, for some people, non-ranking is appropriate; for others it is not. For myself, certainly, it was an incentive as a color belt; as a black belt, I could take it or leave it - my sole interest in increasing rank is that it provides increasing access to knowledge. Only individuals can decide if a ranked or non-ranked system works for themselves, and only individual practitioners can decide if the rank system in their own style/organization (if a ranking system exists) is working the way it should.

Kacey, I could not agree more. Look I was in the Marine Corps so I understand hierarchy all too well. I began as an lance corporal out of boot camp. Why? I worked really hard pre and during boot camp to do so. I picked up sergeant very quickly during a time of frozen promotion fields and cut backs. Why? I hated moping floors, cleaning bathrooms, and standing guard duty.

Now, I see that with dan rankings it parallels the military in such a way as the following: You have dan ranking to show a hierarchy of who is in charge, who is supposed to be responsible etc.

Of course I am not niave to believe that this doesn't get abused. It does, however some of us are lucky enough to be in an organization that does not abuse their power.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Brad,
No one can promote you in your art. Wrong!! Thats what a board of your peers of higher rank or the same rank can do.

 

[Kasho]

All this was posted before written before 126 when I saw the post by Rich Parsons.


Mr. Rich Parsons,

Let me now get to your question now that you have brought it back to my attention.

Before I do, My last post was made before reading the new post just before them staring with Rich Parsons.

I will now break his question down.


1.What does one do who studies a traditional art that has no rank.

Trains and works hard for a battle that may never come.

2. No titles. And only Play or fighting or skill level determines order, and that might change on different techniques to a much longer period over time?

Not sure if I split this one up correctly. So I’m sorry can’t comment on this one.


3.What does one do when others use a title and say no, but they still do it any ways?

I think you are referring to (forgive me if I am wrong) and I will use my kung fu instructor for an example: My instructor (Wayne T Gist once list in ISKF mag) would call his instructor master and he would say call me John. My instructor would then say yes master. You do your best!

Terry,

Grow up!! I don’t know you so I don’t know if you’re a good person or martial artiest and I am not questioning that, but you are going around shooting your mouth off while I have my hands tied because you hold the control buttons to this board. If you whis for clear answers PM me and ask for my phone # I will be most happy to supply it for you and we can talk out all your questions. Again you don’t know me so you have talking about someone that you don’t have a clue about. Meet me some where for a cup of coffee sometime (tournament, seminar or what ever) and I will buy while you ask all you questions. Disagree with me on this subject if you will, but I’m sure you’ll feel like shooting yourself when you start to agree with me on other issues.


Dan,

No offence taken here, others have set the tone here for you and it is reasonable for you to be suspicious. This is not the only subject that I would like to discus but with so many questions here it is hard to get away. I found this board and was hope for some good conversation and sharing from both sides, someone spouts off something like hidden agenda all there is an immediate cloud over me and the conversation guilty or not.

Some have moved on to the subject and some are still trying silly little unprofessional attacks. Read the whole post and decipher the pertinent parts if you can while not trying to get lost in all the nonessentials.

Picking up on #126

Brother John,

We just don’t see things the same way, That’s ok! It’s not a sin. I do respect your right to that opinion.

#127
Terry

No money comes back, we keep that big $50.00 testing fee and our students that make it to black belt no longer pay for classes or for tests.

The question to your answer is we are not a dictatorship like most associations or art leaders. What happens in my school applies there, if one of our other instructors keeps or reduces or drops rank is up to them. Their schools are independent of us.

But what about the traditional people that have already made this change? The modern arts that have changed? This is all up to them as much so as to the people that decided to use rank from the start. Do I think that rank was a bad thing from the start? No, but I do think that it has changed from what it was and is being abused at the expense of the students and public.

Later,
Brad

 

[matt.m]

I am sorry to post one after the other but I wanted to break it up a bit so the last would not be so long. However, it seems to me that rank is a fabulous measuring stick. Here is why, the instructor always teaches the lesson plans the same way no matter how long he teaches the cirriculum. It stays set and doesn't deviate.

The student knows what is expected of them and the instuctor and their panel know the test way before hand for each belt rank so their is no inconsistency on what is learned at each belt rank.

Plus, if you visit a school in the same system it shows where in your system that your current skill level is. For example I know for a fact when I go to the cape school exactly what the white, yellow, orange, and green belts are working on. The cirriculum is the same, no more and not less.

Again, I come from an organization that holds itself in high standards and integrity so I can freely say this. I don't worry about what others do, that doesn't concern me.

 

[chinto01]

I have talked to people about how dropping rank all together could hurt schools, supply companies, manufacturing companies and more. Belts are big business and there is a lot of money being made by the people that make and sell them. Jobs could be lost and business could close down. I do not wish people to lose their jobs or divorces to occur due to someone loosing their job and having the family financial matters become to much.

Brad I have read the threads from last evening to this morning and the above quote I find most interesting. Do you think you are the only person to have considered dropping or reducing rank in the system / school they are in? I think you need to reconsider such comments as the above because they put a huge dent in any good points you may have. To think that you can start a movement that would hurt the supply warehouses and the staff they employ is laughable. What next an effect on the global economy? This seems to be your big idea in the martial arts. Change/ reduce rank. You seem more focused on it than anyone else. Why not move on and start another topic?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[terryl965]

Terry,

Grow up!! I don’t know you so I don’t know if you’re a good person or martial artiest and I am not questioning that, but you are going around shooting your mouth off while I have my hands tied because you hold the control buttons to this board. If you whis for clear answers PM me and ask for my phone # I will be most happy to supply it for you and we can talk out all your questions. Again you don’t know me so you have talking about someone that you don’t have a clue about. Meet me some where for a cup of coffee sometime (tournament, seminar or what ever) and I will buy while you ask all you questions. Disagree with me on this subject if you will, but I’m sure you’ll feel like shooting yourself when you start to agree with me on other issues.


Kasho I was all but done with this thread Until the above statement:
I have been studying MA for over forty years hold a 5th dan Okinawa Karate and a 4th in TKD just si you know me a little I only tested for my 4th in TKD for my own personal reasons and I will explain my oldest son his hoping to make the Olympic team and for that to happen he must be Kukkiwon certified so I did not have to be under some one controls I went and tested after 20 years of no test, you see we both agree about rank not really meaning that much, what we don't agree about is getting rid of it all together.

As far as agreeing on other issue we probaly do, I agree with alot of things in MA that other find stupid. The difference is I do try and justify my action, I let sleeping dogs sleep until need be.

The thing that really upset me was your comment to Last Fearner, it may have been taken out of context but that is how iy was precieved by alot of folks.

As far as me holding the control buttons to this thread, I;m the least likely to pull the strings, I believe a good debateis always a good way to bring about converstation here.

Who knows maybe one day we may even becomes MA brothers and look back and laugh about this thread, I have became friends with alot of folks that I do not agree with. I beleive you have good intentions, but I believe the manner to bring it to the fore front could be done in a more positive way.

I hope we can come together and begain a strong agreement to dis-agree with honor.

Terry

 

[Rich Parsons]

All this was posted before written before 126 when I saw the post by Rich Parsons.


Mr. Rich Parsons,

Let me now get to your question now that you have brought it back to my attention.

Before I do, My last post was made before reading the new post just before them staring with Rich Parsons.

I will now break his question down.


1.What does one do who studies a traditional art that has no rank.

Trains and works hard for a battle that may never come.

2. No titles. And only Play or fighting or skill level determines order, and that might change on different techniques to a much longer period over time?

Not sure if I split this one up correctly. So I’m sorry can’t comment on this one.


3.What does one do when others use a title and say no, but they still do it any ways?

I think you are referring to (forgive me if I am wrong) and I will use my kung fu instructor for an example: My instructor (Wayne T Gist once list in ISKF mag) would call his instructor master and he would say call me John. My instructor would then say yes master. You do your best!

Not the response I expected. But you did reply.

 

[MJS]

Mod Note:

Thread Locked Pending Review.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[MJS]

After review of this thread, it has been decided that it will be re-opened on a trial basis, and will be closed again at the first rule violation. At this time, I would like to address a few issues. I strongly suggest that anyone not familiar with the rules of this forum, to take some time to read through them. They can be found here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

There have also been concerns with staff members that have posted in this thread, in which comments have been made regarding "pulling of strings" when it comes to decisions that are made. I can assure everyone, that when staff post in a thread, they are doing so as members. It is a policy of this forum that Moderators do not 'Moderate' in threads, in which they are involved in, due to conflict of interest. The same holds true for any posts that are reported to the Moderation team. Due to the fact that they are involved in the thread discussion, we have them refrain from giving input regarding decisions that are made regarding problem posts.

Again, this thread is reopened on a trial basis. Any further violations could result in a suspension or ban of your account.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[terryl965]

First off let me be the first to apologies for not being professional at some points of this thread, I do have some question for Kasho Martial Arts.

1) If rank means very little to your style and you know I hold little regards to rank, why is it you have it at all in your system? Would it not serve your spirit to desolve rank better if your own Organization did away with it?

2) I read some other post you sent me and it seems this has been in the forefront for some time but yourself are just reducing rank in the near future, why now?

3) I believe your passion and quest is a general one but how can this come to be here or any place else the powers to be in the larger more dominent org. will toss this like crumbs from a bake off?

4) lastly by doing the reduction of rank in your org. a turning point in your life destiny and does it make that much of a difference with your student base?

I thank you a head of time.
Terry

 

[kroh]

YES...Let the beatings COMMENCE!

sorry, couldn't help myself.
Regards,
Walt

 

[terryl965]

YES...Let the beatings COMMENCE!

sorry, couldn't help myself.
Regards,
Walt

You are soo bad
Terry

 

[kroh]

soo bad
Terry

I posted several times in this thread in which I was supportive of the issue at hand while trying to maintain a professional and informative demeanor.

I was feeling left out that I didn't get in on any of the slinging...

Regards,
Walt