Aikido.. The reality?

OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,147

Sign this guy up for hollywood. Not sure where he got his Jo staff from but he should stop buying from that company.
 

BrendanF

Blue Belt
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
239
Reaction score
73
Applications of what? That's something Chiba invented. If you research aikido weapons I think you'll come across what I said.. written by senior aikido folks.. everywhere.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,347
Reaction score
5,293
If you train to play soccer you get good at playing soccer

If you train to play the piano then you get good at playing the piano

If you train at playing tennis then you get good at playing tennis

The purpose of your training makes a difference.

If you train to fight then you get good at fighting

If you train to act then you get good at acting.

If you train to do Extreme martial arts then you get good at doing Extreme Martial Arts.

If you don't train to do Extreme martial arts then you won't get good at doing Extreme Martial arts

If you train to use a staff for fighting function then you get good at using the staff for fighting function

If you train to use a staff for performance and entertainment purposes then you get get good at the staff in the context of performance and entertainment purpose.

Training to use a staff for Entertainment purposes does not translate into the ability to use the staff for fighting purposes. The people who do Extreme MMA would even tell you this,

Training to use a staff for Entertainment purposes doe snot translate into the ability to use the the staff for Extreme Martial Arts purposes

I don't know why you make things like this so difficult.

It is because you are selling an ideology. Not scientific method.
 

BrendanF

Blue Belt
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
239
Reaction score
73
From the web:

The aiki-jō techniques taught by Ueshiba were a distillation and modification of that training, with an emphasis upon the use of the as a method for the refinement of one's empty-handed aikido techniques.

Aiki-jō practice can help uncover errors in the student's empty-handed aikido technique, and provides an opportunity to apply the principles of aikido in different situations.

Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo are especially created to support taijutsu, and are not intended to be intrinsic arts in themselves.

It's literally what Aikido folks say. But you are of course welcome to your own opinion.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,147
From the web:







It's literally what Aikido folks say. But you are of course welcome to your own opinion.
"The aiki-jō techniques taught by Ueshiba" When I read this I see what "Ueshiba Did" not what someone who is training Aikido now is doing?

It's definitely not what these guys are doing. If you cannot tell that this is different than that statement then it's because you choose to ignore how some people are training Aikido Today
 

BrendanF

Blue Belt
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
239
Reaction score
73
"The aiki-jō techniques taught by Ueshiba" When I read this I see what "Ueshiba Did" not what someone who is training Aikido now is doing?

It's definitely not what these guys are doing. If you cannot tell that this is different than that statement then it's because you choose to ignore how some people are training Aikido Today

No worries. I'll leave you to it.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,147
The drill at 4:33 is similar to a staff drill that I practice with my son.

1621147990276.png


HEMA guys using a technique that is more like the Aikido technique than mine because of the grip.
1621148430090.png


We see the same principle below

1621149334937.png



1621150296476.png

4 different people,
3 different systems, maybe 4 different systems

Same principle of dealing with someone taking a jab with a staff.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
404
I’m gonna say that it depends. A lot of weapons are pretty intuitive. Poke him with the blunt end, hit him with the heavy end, stab him with the pointy end, cut him with the edge, swing that floppy thing at him with the weighted end. Pretty obvious on a simplistic level, and perfectly able to be destructive with it.

I think some people will be incompetent with nearly anything they pick up and try to use. Others could be genuinely dangerous to nearly anyone, even though they have no training with a particular weapon. A fellow with a tire iron or a baseball bat can be very dangerous, even if he never trained to use those implements as a weapon. It is intuitive, even if not at a high level of skill.

when you are talking about specific martial arts weapons, like sword or spear or tonfa or sai, then their efficient and maximum effect in use definitely requires training. But they can still be picked up and used to dangerous effect by someone without training. Stab him with the pointy end, etc. If some fellow picked up a katana and relied on his little-league baseball history to swing it at you, you might be in trouble. Just because he never trained the katana properly doesn’t mean you are gonna have an easy time with him, particularly if you are unarmed.
Yes, there are a lot of common items that can be used as weapons intuitively, that is true. In the hands of the untrained, they will more than likely use them......intuitively. I believe a trained fighter can and will use this knowledge to their advantage and take that weapon away from the untrained fighter. Will it be risk free ? No. Will they be pissed off if they do get wounded in the confrontation ? More than likely, yes. Also, an untrained person picking up a weapon is an invitation for their opponent to pick up a weapon. Trained fighters may also know that the pointy end is the one that goes into their opponent ;) .
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,506
Reaction score
2,937
Location
San Francisco
Yes, there are a lot of common items that can be used as weapons intuitively, that is true. In the hands of the untrained, they will more than likely use them......intuitively. I believe a trained fighter can and will use this knowledge to their advantage and take that weapon away from the untrained fighter. Will it be risk free ? No. Will they be pissed off if they do get wounded in the confrontation ? More than likely, yes. Also, an untrained person picking up a weapon is an invitation for their opponent to pick up a weapon. Trained fighters may also know that the pointy end is the one that goes into their opponent ;) .
All valid. My real point boils down to this: the prior posts were, in my opinion, suggesting that anything less than dedicated training to a weapon was a guarantee that any attempt to use the weapon would result in a disastrous fail. One can almost imagine a keystone cop type of fumbling and bumbling, tripping over ones own feet, dropping the weapon into the hands of ones enemies. Ok, I’m being facetious. But the prior posts were really painting a picture of failure. I don’t automatically buy it. Intuitive use of the weapon can be deadly effective. If his opponent is trained but unarmed, I just might put my money on the untrained but armed fellow. It depends. There are no guarantees either way. There is no guarantee the trained follow will be able to take the weapon away and then use it. To assume he will, I think is a mistake. Hell, martial training is so common nowadays we can’t even tell immediately who has had some training and who has not, never mind the quality and subject relevance of that training.

my son and I spar with lightsabers. He is seven years old. Of course I have to go easy on him, but his random swinging can find a target often enough. And that is from a seven year-old just having fun. If I was unarmed, even though I could overpower him easily, there is a good chance I would get cut in the process, if he had a machete. Now if he was 15 years old or older, I think the danger to me would become quite real.

the bottom line: if a fellow picks up a weapon or an improvised weapon, with intent to use it, whether he is trained or not (and how would I even know?) you need to take that very seriously. Assumptions that he will fumble it or that you can get it away from him just might get you killed.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
404
All valid. My real point boils down to this: the prior posts were, in my opinion, suggesting that anything less than dedicated training to a weapon was a guarantee that any attempt to use the weapon would result in a disastrous fail. One can almost imagine a keystone cop type of fumbling and bumbling, tripping over ones own feet, dropping the weapon into the hands of ones enemies. Ok, I’m being facetious. But the prior posts were really painting a picture of failure. I don’t automatically buy it. Intuitive use of the weapon can be deadly effective. If his opponent is trained but unarmed, I just might put my money on the untrained but armed fellow. It depends. There are no guarantees either way. There is no guarantee the trained follow will be able to take the weapon away and then use it. To assume he will, I think is a mistake. Hell, martial training is so common nowadays we can’t even tell immediately who has had some training and who has not, never mind the quality and subject relevance of that training.

my son and I spar with lightsabers. He is seven years old. Of course I have to go easy on him, but his random swinging can find a target often enough. And that is from a seven year-old just having fun. If I was unarmed, even though I could overpower him easily, there is a good chance I would get cut in the process, if he had a machete. Now if he was 15 years old or older, I think the danger to me would become quite real.

the bottom line: if a fellow picks up a weapon or an improvised weapon, with intent to use it, whether he is trained or not (and how would I even know?) you need to take that very seriously. Assumptions that he will fumble it or that you can get it away from him just might get you killed.
Understood and you are right to say that just because they are untrained with the weapon that equates to fumbling it. The range of weapons that started this discussion included 3 sectional staffs as well as a bat. Articulated weapons whether they have 2 joints or 1 are not simple to use, imo. Can you use them ? Yes. Will you more than likely bonk yourself in the head or testicles ? Also a yes. Bats are more simple and can be used more intuitively and effectively compared to a 3 sectional staff. People untrained with bats may understand the power that they can posses and may also be reluctant to use them effectively for fear of consequences. There are a lot of variables to consider for sure but to say that picking up any weapon is better than picking up no weapon is not necessarily a no brainer. If you pick up a bat and don't know how to use it, you better swing it with some intent because the trained fighter will use all their guile to make you commit to a swing and that is when the odds of being disarmed go in the favour of the trained fighter.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,506
Reaction score
2,937
Location
San Francisco
Understood and you are right to say that just because they are untrained with the weapon that equates to fumbling it. The range of weapons that started this discussion included 3 sectional staffs as well as a bat. Articulated weapons whether they have 2 joints or 1 are not simple to use, imo. Can you use them ? Yes. Will you more than likely bonk yourself in the head or testicles ? Also a yes. Bats are more simple and can be used more intuitively and effectively compared to a 3 sectional staff. People untrained with bats may understand the power that they can posses and may also be reluctant to use them effectively for fear of consequences. There are a lot of variables to consider for sure but to say that picking up any weapon is better than picking up no weapon is not necessarily a no brainer. If you pick up a bat and don't know how to use it, you better swing it with some intent because the trained fighter will use all their guile to make you commit to a swing and that is when the odds of being disarmed go in the favour of the trained fighter.
Yes, these are true points, particularly weapons like the three-section staff. But some of these things are pretty uncommon. I would wager that most kung fu schools don’t keep three-section staff lying around. But a tire iron or baseball bat or golf club or kitchen knife or hatchet or broom handle, are all common implements. You don’t just find them lying around in the street, but they are common in our society and can be easily acquired if someone is looking for something to keep handy. They are also all very intuitive.
 

Mr. Scott

White Belt
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
6
Reaction score
4
"My way is basically 70% atemi and 30% throwing" - Morihei Ueshiba

I have used Aikido techniques 3 times in real situations. 2 times were direct atemi to the nose while performing irimi entrance to counter a frontal attack. Both times the opponent immediately ceased hostility. In the other situation I was able to use relaxation techniques to confuse a much larger opponent. I provided no resistance, kept calm, and waited for the moment I could do something. I was able to to get the opponent into a standing nikkyo position and they submitted before I applied the technique. No one was injured that time.

The reality of Aikido is if you do not use atemi the majority of techniques will not work. Atemi is the key and any instructor worth their salt will tell you that. Unfortunately modern aikido has degraded into a callisthenic exercise for the elderly rather than a martial art.

I started aikido in 1991 under the direction of Akira Tohei, uchi-deshi to O-Sensei and the highest ranking instructor in the USA until his death, and what I see today can only be described as a shameful farce. I have had instructors try to unlearn me what I have been taught. What hubris to think you know better than the masters. The ranking system is based on money and prolonging and retarding the development of students. I refuse to sit in a dojo where higher ranking students cannot apply an effective nikkyo, etc. and I have to take an instructors role. It is less than encouraging to have members of a dojo tell me they learn more from me than the instructors. I have watched tests that made me feel embarrassed, yet the tested was promoted. Were I the examiner I would have failed them and reprimanded the instructor. But hey, if you spend the time and give the dime you get your rank. The greatest disservice is to the student.

I have held a 3rd kyu rank since the early 90's yet I have practiced hundreds of hours since that time. When I left the dojo every hour practiced was counted. Now only one hour a day is accepted? With current system I will have to pay dojo fees and association dues for over a decade if not more to achieve a shodan. When I look into the uchi deshi programs in the USA I find the requirement to study Zen, Iaido, and useless Iwama breakdowns of weapon techniques. I don't care about Iaido, though I might if I felt ninjas were going to attack me in my home. Hasn't happened yet. I don't care for Zen. Tried it. It's not for me, though I use some techniques in my mediations. I have been involved meditative practices for for more than 3 decades. I am more than qualified to speak as an expert on the subject, yet I don't. Why? The expansion of consciousness and realities encountered in meditative practice cannot be explained in words. I encourage all to practice meditation daily. O-Sensei was a mystic in his later years and many of his students had no idea what he was trying to explain when it wasn't about physical technique.

In addition, I have seen no emphasis on the development of Ki or the understanding of how to use it in technique. Ki is the second character in Aikido. I can only assume not many instructors understand it at all. Ki is an esoteric concept that can only be realized through certain practices and disciplines. If one wants to use the full power of aikido, the development of ki power is integral.

And so I end this with Blah, blah, blah. Thanks for listening.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,147
You don’t just find them lying around in the street,
People usually pack their weapon of choice. I don't by into the random item just laying around. How many stores do we walk around in and actually see a broom stick? Most of that stuff is usually locked in a closet somewhere, or in that Isle in the grocery story that you never go down.

Hardware stores like Home Depot or retail stores like a sports store, or walmart is going to be a different story, but even there items aren't randomly laying around. In a sports store you'll have to go to the section where the bats or golf clubs are. But that's not random. Where I live, I'd be lucky to find a rock when I need it. Then it would need to be heavy enough to cause some damage.The concept of a random weapon doesn't sit well with me. The times in my life where I had a weapon to use was because I bought one with me.. It was always a weapon that I felt comfortable using
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,506
Reaction score
2,937
Location
San Francisco
People usually pack their weapon of choice. I don't by into the random item just laying around. How many stores do we walk around in and actually see a broom stick? Most of that stuff is usually locked in a closet somewhere, or in that Isle in the grocery story that you never go down.

Hardware stores like Home Depot or retail stores like a sports store, or walmart is going to be a different story, but even there items aren't randomly laying around. In a sports store you'll have to go to the section where the bats or golf clubs are. But that's not random. Where I live, I'd be lucky to find a rock when I need it. Then it would need to be heavy enough to cause some damage.The concept of a random weapon doesn't sit well with me. The times in my life where I had a weapon to use was because I bought one with me.. It was always a weapon that I felt comfortable using
I think you are correct in that the random availability of weapons is often very low. But these things are available if people choose to make them available. No permits or safe-handling training required.

And if someone chooses to use them, even without training for such use, the safer bet is to assume they can use them with great effect.
 

Shatteredzen

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 5, 2021
Messages
378
Reaction score
106
"My way is basically 70% atemi and 30% throwing" - Morihei Ueshiba

I have used Aikido techniques 3 times in real situations. 2 times were direct atemi to the nose while performing irimi entrance to counter a frontal attack. Both times the opponent immediately ceased hostility. In the other situation I was able to use relaxation techniques to confuse a much larger opponent. I provided no resistance, kept calm, and waited for the moment I could do something. I was able to to get the opponent into a standing nikkyo position and they submitted before I applied the technique. No one was injured that time.

The reality of Aikido is if you do not use atemi the majority of techniques will not work. Atemi is the key and any instructor worth their salt will tell you that. Unfortunately modern aikido has degraded into a callisthenic exercise for the elderly rather than a martial art.

I started aikido in 1991 under the direction of Akira Tohei, uchi-deshi to O-Sensei and the highest ranking instructor in the USA until his death, and what I see today can only be described as a shameful farce. I have had instructors try to unlearn me what I have been taught. What hubris to think you know better than the masters. The ranking system is based on money and prolonging and retarding the development of students. I refuse to sit in a dojo where higher ranking students cannot apply an effective nikkyo, etc. and I have to take an instructors role. It is less than encouraging to have members of a dojo tell me they learn more from me than the instructors. I have watched tests that made me feel embarrassed, yet the tested was promoted. Were I the examiner I would have failed them and reprimanded the instructor. But hey, if you spend the time and give the dime you get your rank. The greatest disservice is to the student.

I have held a 3rd kyu rank since the early 90's yet I have practiced hundreds of hours since that time. When I left the dojo every hour practiced was counted. Now only one hour a day is accepted? With current system I will have to pay dojo fees and association dues for over a decade if not more to achieve a shodan. When I look into the uchi deshi programs in the USA I find the requirement to study Zen, Iaido, and useless Iwama breakdowns of weapon techniques. I don't care about Iaido, though I might if I felt ninjas were going to attack me in my home. Hasn't happened yet. I don't care for Zen. Tried it. It's not for me, though I use some techniques in my mediations. I have been involved meditative practices for for more than 3 decades. I am more than qualified to speak as an expert on the subject, yet I don't. Why? The expansion of consciousness and realities encountered in meditative practice cannot be explained in words. I encourage all to practice meditation daily. O-Sensei was a mystic in his later years and many of his students had no idea what he was trying to explain when it wasn't about physical technique.

In addition, I have seen no emphasis on the development of Ki or the understanding of how to use it in technique. Ki is the second character in Aikido. I can only assume not many instructors understand it at all. Ki is an esoteric concept that can only be realized through certain practices and disciplines. If one wants to use the full power of aikido, the development of ki power is integral.

And so I end this with Blah, blah, blah. Thanks for listening.
Good points, I myself find the lack of decent schools disheartening but this has been perpetuated by an unwillingness on the part of the community as a whole to adopt more modern training methods and to learn to apply the techniques against resistance. As far as Ki, yes, it is big in Aikido, but I am not going to waste my breath going into "Ki" as a concept with people who are focusing on demonstrable techniques and this dips into the esoteric side of things.
 
Top