Aikido.. The reality?

Flying Crane

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Well since you love that, I might as well add the cherry.

"Traditional bo staff is for beginners" - And I was so proud of my wax wood staffs.


Someone should make a Movie Fight school where they just teach stuff like that. I think it would do it more justice than calling it Extreme Martial Arts.
AHHHHH!!!!! MY EYES!!!!!!! MY EYESSS!!!!!!!!
 
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JowGaWolf

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Why is that training essentially any different to a school that doesn't go live with their weapons?
1. Weapon weight - There's a really big difference. Last time I picked up an XMA bo staff I thought it was going to break in my hand.

2. Purpose of training - We didn't train to perform. We trained to be able do correct striking and blocking techniques (not application) Learning how to correctly punch vs learning how to apply that punch. But with the staff instead of punches. Training for Function vs performance

3. Staff techniques of striking - This is a big on one. Even though we didn't spar with the staff, we did practice striking blocks. So you would block then I would strike. This does 2 thing. It trains the person for the impact of the block and it gives the attacker the opportunity to use a real strike. That way we learn how to correctly generate power in a way that allows us to instantly get feedback from our partner. Hold the staff wrong and fingers get smashed.

Even if you don't go live with weapons fighting, Knowing how to use the technique goes a long way. knowing how to punch goes a long way and it makes learning how to apply the punch easier. Same with weapons. Knowing how to shoot a gun, drive a tank, fly a plane vs going to war. So while your skill sets may not have gone live. When the time comes, you are still better off for knowing the correct way than someone who jumps into war and has never fired a gun, driven a tank, or flown a plane. But this is only if what you train has a functional foundation.

XMA doesn't have a function fighting foundation. A lot of what's in there will not work on the street or anywhere else. They know this and they don't try to hide it. Which is why you never hear XMA schools being called out for being a McDojo.


"XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts) signifies the transition of martial arts from the traditional towards the contemporary. Having evolved from an ancient form of self-defense, the modern martial arts movement is now more sport and entertainment,"

"It is designed to enhance the traditional with more speed, power, presentation and performance value. At the basic levels, Xtreme Martial Arts is used as a tool to develop Life and Leadership Skills. At the high end, students can reach elite levels and compete on the international stage and go head to head with Hollywood’s best!"

Source: ATA XMA » Performance Martial Arts Academy - Valdosta, GA

As you can see there's a big difference just from the focus of training.
 

drop bear

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1. Weapon weight - There's a really big difference. Last time I picked up an XMA bo staff I thought it was going to break in my hand.

2. Purpose of training - We didn't train to perform. We trained to be able do correct striking and blocking techniques (not application) Learning how to correctly punch vs learning how to apply that punch. But with the staff instead of punches. Training for Function vs performance

3. Staff techniques of striking - This is a big on one. Even though we didn't spar with the staff, we did practice striking blocks. So you would block then I would strike. This does 2 thing. It trains the person for the impact of the block and it gives the attacker the opportunity to use a real strike. That way we learn how to correctly generate power in a way that allows us to instantly get feedback from our partner. Hold the staff wrong and fingers get smashed.

Even if you don't go live with weapons fighting, Knowing how to use the technique goes a long way. knowing how to punch goes a long way and it makes learning how to apply the punch easier. Same with weapons. Knowing how to shoot a gun, drive a tank, fly a plane vs going to war. So while your skill sets may not have gone live. When the time comes, you are still better off for knowing the correct way than someone who jumps into war and has never fired a gun, driven a tank, or flown a plane. But this is only if what you train has a functional foundation.

XMA doesn't have a function fighting foundation. A lot of what's in there will not work on the street or anywhere else. They know this and they don't try to hide it. Which is why you never hear XMA schools being called out for being a McDojo.


"XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts) signifies the transition of martial arts from the traditional towards the contemporary. Having evolved from an ancient form of self-defense, the modern martial arts movement is now more sport and entertainment,"

"It is designed to enhance the traditional with more speed, power, presentation and performance value. At the basic levels, Xtreme Martial Arts is used as a tool to develop Life and Leadership Skills. At the high end, students can reach elite levels and compete on the international stage and go head to head with Hollywood’s best!"

Source: ATA XMA » Performance Martial Arts Academy - Valdosta, GA

As you can see there's a big difference just from the focus of training.

How do you know?
 

geezer

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How do you know?
Know what? That there's a huge difference in the focus of training between XMA and TMA? Well, you don't. It's a spectrum from training focused on tricking and entertainment at one end and on practical application and fighting at the other. So with sticks you go from this on one side to Dog Bros. and competitive stick fighters on the other.

If your point is that a lot of TMA, with their fancy forms, uniforms and stylized movements are actually closer to XMA than to fighting ....well that's just mean of you to say (me wagging my finger) ...at also quite accurate. ;)
 
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geezer

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Oh, here's some shortish, light weight staff work with some double-handed swings sorta like a bat, or maybe more like using a zweihander? Anyway it got my attention.


Oh, and there's this one too:

 
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JowGaWolf

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Know what? That there's a huge difference in the focus of training between XMA and TMA? Well, you don't. It's a spectrum from training focused on tricking and entertainment at one end and on practical application and fighting at the other. So with sticks you go from theis on one side to Dog Bros. and competitive stick fighters on the other.

If your point is that a lot of TMA, with their fancy forms, uniforms and stylized movements are actually closer to XMA than to fighting ....well that's just mean of you to say (me wagging my finger) ...at also quite accurate. ;)
ha ha ha .. let me find out that Drop Bear has some jokes.
 

drop bear

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Know what? That there's a huge difference in the focus of training between XMA and TMA? Well, you don't. It's a spectrum from training focused on tricking and entertainment at one end and on practical application and fighting at the other. So with sticks you go from this on one side to Dog Bros. and competitive stick fighters on the other.

If your point is that a lot of TMA, with their fancy forms, uniforms and stylized movements are actually closer to XMA than to fighting ....well that's just mean of you to say (me wagging my finger) ...at also quite accurate. ;)

I call this the danos direct factor.


So there is this idea that if someone is training for a specific purpose. Then they are going to be better at that purpose.

But that assumes they have literally any idea about what they are on about.

(And this is often circular. I must know what I am on about because I train for that thing. )

But in martial arts this is often a false assumption. And especially weapons.

So the idea that you are training a method that makes you a better weapons fighter than another method. Really needs to finish with you being a better weapons fighter.

So like you said dog brothers or something vs kata or bunkai are two completely different animals.
 

Flying Crane

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Oh, here's some shortish, light weight staff work with some double-handed swings sorta like a bat, or maybe more like using a zweihander? Anyway it got my attention.


Oh, and there's this one too:

First, Lonely has a beautiful place to train.

second, there is a reason Chinese martial arts call the spear “king of weapons”.
 

gpseymour

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I'm not sure, but they have sword in the system right? So if they spar using their sword techniques instead of the compliant training then they would perform better.
It's my understanding that their jo (short staff) work is more likely to have application than their sword work. So maybe going in with that in some non-compliant training.
 

jayoliver00

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This people aren't drunk look how long the reload time is on the swings

Look up Dong Stick Fight. They aren't drunk.

Look at these guys they aren't drunk and they are using shorter sticks. What happens when one guy advances in? The other guy retreats because you can't hit someone up close with the grip that they are using for the stick. So they run to create distance.

When you hold a staff like a baseball bat the power is on the end and weak points of power is closer to the hands.

Indian shop owners are fighting. Non-of them are drunk to my knowledge. The closer that person gets the less effective those swings are. Here you can see the exact same thing I'm telling you.

Yea, like I said, they'd be worse trying to fight w/o the sticks. The sticks give them a better chance.
 

jayoliver00

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India seems to be stick fighting capital of the world. If you want to see some real stick fights most of them are happening in india.

The point of our statements weren't about randomly running into a staff, lying around in the street.

Yea but a real staff is pretty heavy and 6 feet or so; not what someone would find. Which was why I said that a mop handle is more likely and they can def. swing that better.

The purpose of our statements were that sometimes trying to fight with a weapon that you are untrained in isn't going to be the advantage that you think it is.

But you brought up "staff, 3sect staff, chain whip, baseball bat" as your arguments; these are unrealistic examples except the baseball bat as people don't carry them if they're untrained, nor are they even legal to carry, usually.

And you're prob. the 1st guy who thinks that a baseball bat is not a good weapon for the untrained. Where do you even go to get formal training in using a baseball bat as a weapon?

In reality it could make things worse for you, especially if the other person takes it away from you and beats you with your own weapon.

In reality, getting KTFO b/c someone sucked at throwing hands, could get their head stomped into a coma & possibly death. I bet they wished they had that baseball bat to begin with.


In addition, people don't randomly have weapons regardless of what is being used. People usually bring it with them or keep it around. All of the people who got shot in the U.S. weren't shot by people who randomly found a gun on the street during a fight.

A gun is way different. It's a easily concealed in comparison to all of your listed weapons. Ain't nobody carrying around a 3sect staff.

If I get into a fight and I hit someone with a staff on their head, then there's nothing random about me having the staff. Just like if I get into a fight and I get stabbed by someone. There was nothing random about the person who had the knife.

So basically, you carry a Karate staff around?


To think that someone is going to "randomly pick up a weapon" is not realistic

The machete didn't just randomly show up. Again. sometimes having a weapon doesn't give you the advantage that you think it does. Then the news anchors laugh at the guy with the machete. Even the trash can didn't Randomly show up. I'm pretty sure that trash can is there everyday of the week.

I never claimed it's guaranteed win with a weapon; but it certainly does give one the advantage.
 
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JowGaWolf

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So there is this idea that if someone is training for a specific purpose. Then they are going to be better at that purpose.
If you train to play soccer you get good at playing soccer

If you train to play the piano then you get good at playing the piano

If you train at playing tennis then you get good at playing tennis

The purpose of your training makes a difference.

If you train to fight then you get good at fighting

If you train to act then you get good at acting.

If you train to do Extreme martial arts then you get good at doing Extreme Martial Arts.

If you don't train to do Extreme martial arts then you won't get good at doing Extreme Martial arts

If you train to use a staff for fighting function then you get good at using the staff for fighting function

If you train to use a staff for performance and entertainment purposes then you get get good at the staff in the context of performance and entertainment purpose.

Training to use a staff for Entertainment purposes does not translate into the ability to use the staff for fighting purposes. The people who do Extreme MMA would even tell you this,

Training to use a staff for Entertainment purposes doe snot translate into the ability to use the the staff for Extreme Martial Arts purposes

I don't know why you make things like this so difficult.
 
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JowGaWolf

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It's my understanding that their jo (short staff) work is more likely to have application than their sword work. So maybe going in with that in some non-compliant training.
That's what I thought as well. We have already pretty much beat into the ground that non-compliant training is helpful in fighting with any technique. I think some people make things too difficult.
 

BrendanF

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I'm not sure, but they have sword in the system right? So if they spar using their sword techniques instead of the compliant training then they would perform better.
It's my understanding that their jo (short staff) work is more likely to have application than their sword work. So maybe going in with that in some non-compliant training.

Both the jo and sword seen in aikido are used as tools to develop the student's aikido - not as a practical weapon syllabus. They are very far removed from real Japanese weapon work.

As is all the Okinawan weapon stuff labelled as 'Japanese' here.
 
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JowGaWolf

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And you're prob. the 1st guy who thinks that a baseball bat is not a good weapon for the untrained. Where do you even go to get formal training in using a baseball bat as a weapon?
I have already shown video supporting what I was saying.
 
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JowGaWolf

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A gun is way different. It's a easily concealed in comparison to all of your listed weapons. Ain't nobody carrying around a 3sect staff.
No one is carrying around a 3 sectional staff because it's very difficult to use. That's not some kind of weapon you just pick up and land successful attacks on someone.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Both the jo and sword seen in aikido are used as tools to develop the student's aikido - not as a practical weapon syllabus. They are very far removed from real Japanese weapon work.
looks like applications to me.
 
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