Aikido.. The reality?

[Gerry Seymour]

You mention juggling. You used juggling as an analogy to highlight the differences between application and demonstrations. I fleshed out your analogy, so that it addresses the difference between what one can do and what one can pretend to do. As I said, I can juggle three balls pretty well... I don't drop them and can even do a few tricks. But I can't juggle more than three items, and I certainly can't juggle chainsaws. How do I know this? Because I actually do it.

I presume when you juggle, you actually have some objects (guessing three balls or beanbags, but could be anything) and you literally throw them around in a continuous manner. That's application. You are, at that point, juggling. You may be good at it. You may not be good at it. You may be REALLY good at. How do you know how good you are at it? Well, when you try to juggle, you get a lot of immediate feedback.

And the point is, some folks can't do what they purport to do in a demo, and some can. I can juggle three balls. From a demonstration, it's impossible for a lay person to distinguish between someone showing them functional expertise in its best light and someone showing them complete theater... a façade of functional expertise that is unrealistic.

I hope this explains it a little more clearly.

Actually, I didn't use juggling as an analogy for that. I compared it to the unbendable arm practice. I don't really have a direct application for juggling, either. Both, from a training perspective, are to train body abilities.

You're trying to use that to yank things over to a tired, worn-out attempt to argue something you've actually said twice you'd drop. But you can't. If I'm really lucky, you'll go back to the flying analogy, wherein you can only see your own view of the topic and nobody else's.

So, to bring it back to what I was talking about, I can do an unbendable arm technique. And I sometimes make that claim, so we're all good.

 

[Hanzou]

they didnt say what you claim they said, that's clear, if you want to make another accurate statemen, then we can discuss it.

I asked, " which school said that" and you indicated that one, , there no where left to go with it now, you were just wrong

First off, there were two schools, not one, and I’m sure I could find more making similar claims.

Secondly, if you are advertising that your MA is effective against both larger attackers and multiple attackers, then yes you are saying that your MA is offering a highly effective form of self defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First off, there were two schools, not one, and I’m sure I could find more making similar claims.

Secondly, if you are advertising that your MA is effective against both larger attackers and multiple attackers, then yes you are saying that your MA is offering a highly effective form of self defense.

I just realized we apparently no longer have an "agree" (or "disagree") reaction.

 

[jobo]

First off, there were two schools, not one, and I’m sure I could find more making similar claims.

Secondly, if you are advertising that your MA is effective against both larger attackers and multiple attackers, then yes you are saying that your MA is offering a highly effective form of self defense.

but they didnt say what you claimed, after that it's just your interpretation of what you think they mean

why not wipe the skate clean and start again with an accurate quote and let's see if you can do better this time

 

[jobo]

I just realized we apparently no longer have an "agree" (or "disagree") reaction.

agreed, still an agree reaction function

 

[Gerry Seymour]

agreed, still an agree reaction function

And no "funny" button. Dangit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Seem like he's following that pattern nicely. Not that he would care what I think, but it amazes me at how he doesn't put the responsibility on the practitioner. Yes the teacher is responsible for teaching quality, but the student is responsible for exploring the martial art system on his or her own outside of the school. It's like going to school and having homework (exploring the subject outside of the school).

He wouldn't be in that he's in now if he was doing this in the past. All of the things he's is exploring should have been a part of his training a long time ago.

He still fails to take ownership of his own training. Even as a teacher of Aikido, he uses the excuse. "It's not the student's fault"

 

[jobo]

And no "funny" button. Dangit.

dCochranhas found the funny button, so it here some where

 

[Dirty Dog]

dCochranhas found the funny button, so it here some where

Who?
Clicking LIKE brings up the various options.

 

[Hanzou]

but they didnt say what you claimed, after that it's just your interpretation of what you think they mean

why not wipe the skate clean and start again with an accurate quote and let's see if you can do better this time

Uh yes they did. Again, when you say your art is effective against opponents with superior numbers or size, you’re saying that you’re offering a highly effective form of self defense.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Not gonna read from the beginning, just gonna say that aikido has always been a controversial martial art, and has been so long before MMA was a thing. And aikidoka are constantly having to defend their art.

That said, I believe this guy. Two things:

- He was a true believer in aikido
- He excels in the current arts that he practices

When you take those two things into consideration, saying that he's the problem and not aikido doesn't make sense.

 

[jobo]

Uh yes they did. Again, when you say your art is effective against opponents with superior numbers or size, you’re saying that you’re offering a highly effective form of self defense.

that's your interpretation, cant you tell the difference

and they didn't say it was ''effective against opponents with superior size,'' why don't you actually read it AGAIN, assuming you read it in the first place which seems increasingly unlikely

 

[drop bear]

Seem like he's following that pattern nicely. Not that he would care what I think, but it amazes me at how he doesn't put the responsibility on the practitioner. Yes the teacher is responsible for teaching quality, but the student is responsible for exploring the martial art system on his or her own outside of the school. It's like going to school and having homework (exploring the subject outside of the school).

He wouldn't be in that he's in now if he was doing this in the past. All of the things he's is exploring should have been a part of his training a long time ago.

He still fails to take ownership of his own training. Even as a teacher of Aikido, he uses the excuse. "It's not the student's fault"

Blaming the student is mostly a cop out.

Especially if it is all the students

 

[Hanzou]

that's your interpretation, cant you tell the difference

and they didn't say it was ''effective against opponents with superior size,'

One of the schools specifically says that Aikido is effective against larger opponents. In other words, opponents of a superior size.

why don't you actually read it AGAIN, assuming you read it in the first place which seems increasingly unlikely

You should really take your own advice.

 

[jobo]

One of the schools specifically says that Aikido is effective against larger opponents. In other words, opponents of a superior size.



You should really take your own advice.

it didnt, really it didnt, not in the one you refered me to, why not swallow your pride and read it again, then quote it exactly, you can even cut and paste for extra accuracy,

 

[Shatteredzen]

Seem like he's following that pattern nicely. Not that he would care what I think, but it amazes me at how he doesn't put the responsibility on the practitioner. Yes the teacher is responsible for teaching quality, but the student is responsible for exploring the martial art system on his or her own outside of the school. It's like going to school and having homework (exploring the subject outside of the school).

He wouldn't be in that he's in now if he was doing this in the past. All of the things he's is exploring should have been a part of his training a long time ago.

He still fails to take ownership of his own training. Even as a teacher of Aikido, he uses the excuse. "It's not the student's fault"

He doesn't take personal responsibility for his part as an instructor but it really is not the students fault. If it is being taught to work, it should work, the student should be given a realistic expectation by the instructor as to how successfully they will be able to use their skills. Rokas in my opinion, hit the nail on the head, Aikido needs to update its training methods to the current paradigm. Also, the observation of who made the moves work goes a long way in my opinion to advocating that it be taught alongside or after other martial arts as well as being drilled with more modern and resistive methods. Ueshiba taught originally to black belts in Judo, it makes sense that they would have had the skills after years of teaching and competing in Judo to apply the Aikido techniques appropriately.

One of the core lessons and takeaways in Aikido is to apply force variably to the situation. BJJ teaches this to a degree but with more drastic consequences to the person resisting. If you don't understand striking for example, how are you supposed to understand the timing needed to block/counter/intercept or move away from the strike? If you don't have a good idea for how much force is necessary to apply the technique against someone who is resisting, how are you supposed to vary your response and force appropriately to the threat? If you don't understand any of those things, how do you teach techniques that are supposed to have so many dynamic variables? A simple fix is to just add the sparring and resistance the way BJJ does and let the chips fall where they may, of course, that's going to leave a lot of "masters" out in the cold but there are worse things.

I'm very happy to see Rokas come around on this and as an Aikido instructor/student/advocate I am very happy to see him use his platform to clarify his position honestly. I felt the first videos he did were a combination of click bait and pandering to the crowd, its good to see him follow through honestly and be willing to alter his position or reconsider. I think videos in the nature of what he has done more recently, even the latest challenge, are good for the community and the systems in the long term. If people can see these kinds of public evaluations being done fairly and honestly, its easier to initiate change within the individual communities.

 

[Hanzou]

it didnt, really it didnt, not in the one you refered me to, why not swallow your pride and read it again, then quote it exactly, you can even cut and paste for extra accuracy,

Yeah, go back and actually read post #799. Both schools mention that Aikido is effective against larger opponents. One even goes as far as to say you can do so with minimal effort.

 

[Steve]

Actually, I didn't use juggling as an analogy for that. I compared it to the unbendable arm practice. I don't really have a direct application for juggling, either. Both, from a training perspective, are to train body abilities.

You're trying to use that to yank things over to a tired, worn-out attempt to argue something you've actually said twice you'd drop. But you can't. If I'm really lucky, you'll go back to the flying analogy, wherein you can only see your own view of the topic and nobody else's.

So, to bring it back to what I was talking about, I can do an unbendable arm technique. And I sometimes make that claim, so we're all good.

So, we only get to talk about the unbendable arm thing? That sounds pretty boring. What else is on your approved list of things I'm allowed to say?

Edit. I just went back to what you said, and you were clearly talking about training the unbendable arm thing some kind of real skill and also a parlor trick. This is exactly what I'm talking about. What's your deal, man?

 

[Martial D]

Seem like he's following that pattern nicely. Not that he would care what I think, but it amazes me at how he doesn't put the responsibility on the practitioner. Yes the teacher is responsible for teaching quality, but the student is responsible for exploring the martial art system on his or her own outside of the school. It's like going to school and having homework (exploring the subject outside of the school).

He wouldn't be in that he's in now if he was doing this in the past. All of the things he's is exploring should have been a part of his training a long time ago.

He still fails to take ownership of his own training. Even as a teacher of Aikido, he uses the excuse. "It's not the student's fault"

That whole tired argument is such a cop out.

If I bamboozle someone into believing they will be able to disable any attacker by booping them on the nose, and for some reason they can't seem to stop getting their butt kicked, it doesn't mean they need to practice harder to make it work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If it is being taught to work, it should work,

This has not been the case with the kung fu that I learned. For me I was told that "technique as is performed like this and is used in this way" All Jow Ga students are taught this way. From there it's a big leap of faith that the person who is teaching you is honest and has accurate knowledge. From there you work that technique in drills. In the case of Joint locks, the rule is simple. IT MUST HURT YOUR PARTNER. My partner is the one who validates that I'm doing the technique correctly. It doesn't mean that I try to destroy his or wrist, it just means that the pain needs to be real. That wrist lock that he showed the BJJ person would never hurt anyone. It's hard to lie about or fake real pain from a joint lock. This is the most basic step in which he would have had feedback while drilling the technique. If it doesn't work then go back to the teacher and ask what you may be doing incorrectly.

In my case, with my big wheel punch. I had a walk through of how the punches are supposed to work. From that I tried to do those punches in sparring on my on without being instructed to. All I had to go on was what my instructor told me. I failed many times in sparring with these punches. My belief is that I can only choose a limited number of times before I get it right. Each failure helped me to better understand what works and what does. That's how I learned kung fu.

Martial arts teachers can be funny sometimes. In other words. They rather not waste their time teaching you the real thing unless you are willing to put in the work. If you aren't willing to seek out the knowledge and to make an effort to think and figure things out, then they will just teach you what they teach everyone else. That's been my personal experience. You have to do the work.

It's not about "Doing everything the teacher says, It's about having a real passion for the system and a willingness to learn it even if there is no teacher around." If you think about it. Roka did none of that. He abandoned Aikido because he thought it was useless. And the research that he's doing now on isn't because he wants to learn how to really use it. It's because he wants someone to prove to him it works.

The people he says know how to use is are also people who know other martial arts systems as well. That's because they have a passion for it. It's that passion that leads them to the answers they seek.

Now I understand that some teachers out there are truly frauds. But we do not know if this is the case with the instructor that taught him. We also do not know if this instructor taught other students who are able to be more successful with Aikido than Roka. The only thing that we know for sure is that Roka didn't do his homework..

People who train Muay Thai train hard. People who train boxing train hard, Can we say that about Roka? No we can't. In his on words about his past, he speaks about how he did everything the teacher said. We didn't hear anything about how hard he trained. My son and I did leg work today. When we were done, we could barely walk down the stairs. People who put in work like have lots of stories about how tough there training is. The only training we heard about is from his MMA training. He talks about how tough that training is. All I'm saying is. The student has to put in the work.