Push Hands Fail

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

It depends on what the practice is actually based on.

Are we all train for combat?

What's the most important combat skill to train? Not to let your opponent's punch to land on your head. IMO, we should spend more that 50% of our training time to achieve that.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

What's the most important combat skill to train? Not to let your opponent's punch to land on your head. IMO, we should spend more that 50% of our training time to achieve that.

The most important skill to train is whatever allows the method you’re using to be functional.

Different methods prioritize different things, what’s emphasized in training will reflect that.

As George Xu pointed out, some people practice Taiji, but the focus has shifted, it has become more about competition than the functional skill development it was historically used for.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

As George Xu pointed out, some people practice Taiji, but the focus has shifted, it has become more about competition than the functional skill development it was historically used for.

If you have blocked 10,000 punches, the chance that you can block the 10,001th punch will be high. The issue is you have to spend time to block that 10,000 punches first.

When you spend time to block punches from someone who tries to knock your head off, you are not shifting focus.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

The most important skill to train is whatever allows the method you’re using to be functional.

Different methods prioritize different things, what’s emphasized in training will reflect that.

As George Xu pointed out, some people practice Taiji, but the focus has shifted, it has become more about competition than the functional skill development it was historically used for.

this video makes me smile because he has that same energy and smile that I have when I'm truly fascinated about Martial Arts. I've watched a couple of videos but some of those videos lack this type of energy. I bet he would be happy to teach application to someone. When I watch this video it reminded me of the same energy shift that I get.

Teaching Jow Ga is fun. Teaching Jow Ga to someone who is interested in learning how to use it is Awesome. No matter the skill level, it's something I always like to see.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

this video makes me smile because he has that same energy and smile that I have when I'm truly fascinated about Martial Arts. I've watched a couple of videos but some of those videos lack this type of energy. I bet he would be happy to teach application to someone. When I watch this video it reminded me of the same energy shift that I get.

Teaching Jow Ga is fun. Teaching Jow Ga to someone who is interested in learning how to use it is Awesome. No matter the skill level, it's something I always like to see.

My taijiquan shifu, back when he and I did push hands all the time, constantly smiled. I use to think the fact that he is relaxed and smiling would be enough to discourage anyone trying to fight with him. Of course looking up at him from the floor after he knocked you over with that same smile and relaxation would help with that intimidation too

 

[Mostly Wu]

In chats, I find ChatGPT to give deeper answers to deeper questions, not use informal fallacies and give organized details in seconds. Here’s its answer to a question asked and insight into the OP...

Why are there some tai chi people that say tai chi develops internal skill not found in external. Yet there is not one video of a tai chi person against resistant seen doing anything different from an external person?

This is a really good, honest question—and you’re noticing the exact gap that a lot of people eventually run into.

1. What “internal skill” claims to be

In styles like Tai Chi (Taijiquan), people often talk about:

• “Internal power” (neijin)
• Whole-body coordination instead of isolated muscle use
• Sensitivity to force (often trained through push hands)
• Relaxation under pressure rather than tension

The idea is that instead of brute strength, you’re using structure, timing, and subtle force redirection.

​

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2. Why you don’t see it clearly in resisting fights

You’ve basically answered your own question—but here are the main reasons:

A. Most Tai Chi practitioners don’t train for fighting

Modern Tai Chi is mostly:

• Health-focused
• Slow-form practice
• Cooperative drills

Very few schools do:

• Live sparring
• Pressure testing
• Competition

Compare that to arts like Boxing, Muay Thai, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, where resisting opponents are standard.

So naturally, you won’t see much footage—because most practitioners never train that way.

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B. “Internal vs external” is often overstated

Historically, that distinction is more philosophical than practical.

High-level fighters in any art:

• Use efficient structure
• Stay relaxed until impact
• Coordinate the whole body

For example:

• A good boxer doesn’t just “muscle punches”
• A good grappler uses leverage, not brute force

So when Tai Chi does work under pressure, it often just looks like… good fighting.

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C. When tested, it looks like normal combat

If someone with real Tai Chi skill spars against resistance, what you see is:

• Striking that resembles kickboxing or boxing
• Clinch work that overlaps with wrestling
• Balance breaking that looks like judo

Nothing mystical or visually unique.

That’s why it doesn’t stand out on video—you’re not seeing “invisible force,” you’re seeing applied biomechanics.

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D. A lot of exaggerated claims don’t hold up

Some instructors claim:

• Effortless knockdowns
• “No-touch” techniques
• Overpowering stronger opponents easily

These claims usually fail under real resistance.

That’s why you’ll find skepticism online—especially when those demonstrations aren’t tested against unwilling opponents.

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3. Are there any legit examples?

There are a few people who cross-trained or pressure-tested:

• Chen Fake (historical, reportedly fought)
• Xu Xiaodong (famously challenged traditional arts)

But even in those discussions, the takeaway is usually:

Skills that work are the ones trained against resistance—regardless of style label.

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4. The core truth (no hype version)

• “Internal skill” = efficient mechanics + sensitivity + relaxation
• These are real—but not unique to Tai Chi
• Without resistance training, they don’t translate to fighting ability
• With resistance training, they stop looking special and just look like good fighting

​

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Bottom line

You’re not missing hidden videos. The reason you don’t see Tai Chi doing something dramatically different under resistance is:

When it works, it blends into normal combat.

When it doesn’t, it never shows up in real fights.

​

---

If you want, I can show you examples of people who try to apply Tai Chi concepts in sparring and break down what’s actually happening biomechanically.


Great—let’s look at this in a grounded, reality-based way. I’ll show you what people point to as “Tai Chi in action” and then break down what’s actually happening.

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1. The most commonly cited modern example

Adam Mizner (push-hands demos)

You’ll often see clips where he:

• Off-balances people with small movements
• Uses minimal visible effort
• Sends partners stumbling

What’s actually going on:

• His partners are cooperating to a degree (not fully resisting)
• He’s very good at:
• Timing
• Balance disruption
• Reading intent

This is skill—but it’s being shown in a semi-compliant environment, not a fight.

---

2. “Pressure test” contrast example

Xu Xiaodong vs traditional stylists

Xu became famous for challenging kung fu/Tai Chi practitioners.

What happened in those fights:

• He used basic MMA fundamentals
• Opponents often:
  • Couldn’t handle pressure
  • Lost structure immediately
  • Fell apart under strikes

What this shows:

• If “internal skill” isn’t trained against resistance, it doesn’t survive contact

​

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3. Subtle internal principles in real fighters

Here’s the interesting part:
You do see “internal-like” qualities—but not labeled that way.

Example: Floyd Mayweather Jr.

• Extremely relaxed until impact
• Efficient structure
• Minimal wasted motion

Example: Demetrious Johnson

• Uses balance and timing over force
• Blends striking and grappling seamlessly

These are often described in Tai Chi terms as:

• “Song” (relaxed readiness)
• Whole-body power
• Sensitivity

But no one calls it Tai Chi—they call it high-level skill

​

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4. What happens when Tai Chi is trained with resistance

In rare cases where people actually spar:

It starts to look like:

• Light kickboxing
• Clinch fighting (similar to wrestling or Judo)
• Off-balancing similar to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu entries

Key observation:

You cannot visually distinguish it as “Tai Chi” anymore

That’s the big reveal.

​

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5. Why push-hands doesn’t transfer cleanly

Push hands trains:

• Sensitivity to pressure
• Balance disruption
• Close-range awareness

But it lacks:

• Strikes to the face
• Speed and chaos
• Non-cooperative intent

So when pressure increases:

• The skill partially transfers
• But gaps become obvious

​

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6. The uncomfortable truth (that most won’t say plainly)

There are only three possibilities when someone claims strong “internal skill”:

1. They’ve never tested it under resistance
2. It works, but looks like normal fighting
3. It only works on cooperative partners

Most videos you’ve seen fall into #1 or #3.

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7. What “real” internal skill would look like (if present)

If someone truly had it and trained properly, you’d expect:

• Better balance in clinch exchanges
• Efficient movement (less fatigue)
• Good timing and redirection

But NOT:

• Effortless knockouts
• Invisible force
• One-touch dominance

​

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Final takeaway

You’re noticing a real mismatch:

The claims about Tai Chi are dramatic.
The evidence under resistance looks ordinary.

And that’s because:

• The principles are real
• The marketing is exaggerated
• The testing is often missing

​

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If you want, I can break down a specific video (if you’ve seen one) and explain exactly what’s skill vs cooperation—that’s where this gets really clear.

Perfect—send me a specific video (or even just describe one you have in mind), and I’ll break it down frame-by-frame in plain language:

• What’s real skill
• What’s cooperation
• What would fail under resistance
• What would still work in a fight

If you don’t have one handy, I can pick a typical example (like a push-hands demo or a “no-effort throw” clip) and walk you through it step by step.

I agree with most of what you have to say, as a Wu style TCC practitioner of close to 50 years. What most TCC people forget is that originator of the Wu style( Quan Yu) was a soldier trained in weapons, riding, and unarmed combat(wrestling and striking arts) BEFORE he learned TCC from the Yang family. His son(Wu Chien Chuan) was also a soldier, trained similarly. The training in TCC was in addition to their other fighting skills. Wrestling, in particular, was a skill that influenced their TCC.

I think good TCC is useful, but not necessary for a fighter. It can be good for their health, both physical and mental, and add a couple of things to their bag of tricks that can be used in a "real fight". Anyone who want s train to fight and does not educate themselves as to what other styles of combat have to offer is going in uninformed, and underprepared. The quasi- legendary masters of yesteryear were skilled in other combat arts, so I sure don't see why students of today wouldn't also follow their lead - if they are interested in fighting.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

I agree that Quan You’s background matters — he came in with a solid foundation in military skills before learning from the Yang family.

From what’s recorded, three of Yang Luchan’s top students (outside his sons) — Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quan You — were Manchurian guards at Prince Duan’s palace. So they already had training before studying Taiji.

But prior experience doesn’t mean the method remains the same. What they learned would still reflect the body method being taught, not just what they brought with them.

Otherwise, you’d expect others with similar backgrounds to produce the same results — but that’s not what’s recorded.

As for the idea that something isn’t different or valid because there are no videos of it being used… that’s not a reliable standard.

Video shows what something looks like — not necessarily how it’s being generated.

The question isn’t whether it looks different…
it’s whether the method can actually function.

Something for each person to answer through their own experience, rather than trying to resolve it through discussion alone.

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[marvin8]

I agree with most of what you have to say, as a Wu style TCC practitioner of close to 50 years.

Most said was from ChatGPT a resource windwalker099 has used.

I think good TCC is useful, but not necessary for a fighter.

Some TCC concepts are useful and necessary for high-level fighting but not necessarily unique. It’s the method of training that can be different...

4. The core truth (no hype version)

• “Internal skill” = efficient mechanics + sensitivity + relaxation
• These are real—but not unique to Tai Chi
• Without resistance training, they don’t translate to fighting ability
• With resistance training, they stop looking special and just look like good fighting

---

Bottom line

You’re not missing hidden videos. The reason you don’t see Tai Chi doing something dramatically different under resistance is:

When it works, it blends into normal combat.

When it doesn’t, it never shows up in real fights.

 

[marvin8]

As for the idea that something isn’t different or valid because there are no videos of it being used… that’s not a reliable standard.

But there are videos of tai chi being used against resistance in your OP and from your source Fight Commentary Breakdowns.

The question isn’t whether it looks different…
it’s whether the method can actually function.

And your OP demonstration shows whether it functioned.

Something for each person to answer through their own experience, rather than trying to resolve it through discussion alone.

However, you posted the OP “Push Hands Fail" for discussion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Some TCC concepts are useful and necessary for high-level fighting but not necessarily unique. It’s the method of training that can be different...

Here is a good example. He is a Taiji guy. His move looks no different from a Chinese wrestling guy - underhook pulling, borrow force.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

Here is a good example. He is a Taiji guy. His move looks no different from a Chinese wrestling guy - underhook pulling, borrow force.

What makes him a taiji guy?

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

What makes him a taiji guy?

Its Chen Zi Qiang, 20th generation Chen family. However the 20th generation tends to be big on Sanda for fighting, aka Tai Chi San Shou, not the same as previous Chen family generations. He is the son of Chen Xiaoxing. I suspect due to the influence of the PRC and their desire to make Chen Chenjiagou like Shaolin Sanda is now taught.

 

[marvin8]

Here is a good example. He is a Taiji guy. His move looks no different from a Chinese wrestling guy - underhook pulling, borrow force.

It is “Chen Ziqiang Sparring with William Miller” both tai chi people...

Here is your "internal body method hip throw" by Chen Ziqiang...

That is the question that I have tried to asked in the past 20 years in this forum.

1. What should "internal body method" look like when you apply "hip throw" or "single leg"? Can someone just put up a "demo" clip?

For johnwang. Finally found it @2:50!

https://imgur.com/heYrOg5

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

It is “Chen Ziqiang Sparring with William Miller” both tai chi people...

Here is your "internal body method hip throw" by Chen Ziqiang...



For johnwang. Finally found it @2:50!

https://imgur.com/heYrOg5

Thanks for your videos. These videos speak a lot. Didn't realize he is a left-hand person.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

What makes him a taiji guy?

So, from your point of view, if a Taiji guy knows hip throw, he is no longer be qualified as a Taiji guy.

David C. K. Lin could do "flying side kick". Does he no longer be qualified as a Chinese wrestler?

 

[windwalker099129 159]

So, from your point of view, if a Taiji guy knows hip throw, he is no longer be qualified as a Taiji guy.

David C. K. Lin could do "flying side kick". Does he no longer be qualified as a Chinese wrestler?

It’s not about the technique — it’s how it’s generated.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

It’s not about the technique — it’s how it’s generated.

How many Taiji guys that you know who can apply hip throw? Now, we finally have found a Taiji guy who knows how to apply hip throw, you then say he is not a Taiji guy.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

, you then say he is not a Taiji guy.

You should read my post again…Did I say he wasn’t a taiji guy ?
Or did I ask “what makes him a taiji guy ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

did I ask “what makes him a taiji guy ?

If you ask me the same question, my answer will be, "Chen Ziqiang is more than a Taiji guy." That "more than" is a plus and not a minus.

I do respect a Taiji guy who can demonstrate

- a punch on the head, or
- a throw on the body.

because he won't let the Taiji label to put any restriction on himself.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

OK. Here is my view on this, Is Chen Zi Qiang a taijiquan guy? well yes. Is the guy he is doing the Sanda with a taijiquan guy? well I assume so. Does that make any of what you see in that video taijiquan? well some of it, but it is still mostly Sanda.

People find it much easier to change something they do not understand, into something they understand, because to understand a thing take time and at times may be a threaat to ones ego to admit they actually do not understand it. Does Chen Zi Qiang understand it? Well, yes, as far as Chen taijiquan goes. However most westeners do not and do not want to take the time to understand it, so teaching Sanda is easier for them and much more lucrative for the Chen family, and the 20th generation teaches Sanda for fighting, the same as Shaolin does these days. But then that is what the PRC wants, and you to not tell the PRC no if you want to run a business in Mainland China.

But if you watch the video very closely, you can see Chen Zi Qiang using some of the principles of Taijiquan. For example, he uses Kao, properly, a ferw times. But most of what he is doing is Sanda/Sanshou. And even labeling it Taiji Sanshou, does not make it proper taijiquan for fighting applications.

And just because he uses a hip throw, although a good hip throw, it is not taijiquan, it is Sanda or Shuaijiao. And IMO that is simply changing it from something many do not understand to something they do understand, and then calling it taijiquan...yet it is not. Does Chen Zi Qiang know this? Very likely, but then it is likely what the students he deals with, outside of China, or those coming to Chenjaiguo want and that way more come and more pay for the privilege.

However taijiquan can throw you on the floor, hit you, kick you, punch you, joint lock you, all without a hip throw. I know, happened to me many times with my Yang Shifu. And you know what, he used very little if any force, and I had no idea what was happening until I was either on the floor or locked. '

I have trained a little Qinna with Yang Jwing Ming, and he is what I would call a master of Qinna, but I cold always tell whe he was going for a lock. I cannot tell with my Yang Shifu, and when I aked him how he does that, his response was, "You lock yourself". Most people, including Chen Zi Qiang, in the video, apply way to much force and if you know good taijiquan, and I have been lucky enough to do push hands with a few, there is not a lot of force needed to knock you over, or unbalance you.

But this conversation is getting way off the point, push hands it not the fighting style of taijiquan, it is a training tool and what you learn from push hands can be applied to actual fighting, but push hands is not fighting, nor is a sparing,, However there is a free style push hands that gets closer to, and is more directly applicable to an actual fight, But you don't get to that right away. You need to start at the beginning and work your way there