Aikido.. The reality?

[Xue Sheng]

"The other day, I was listening to a highly respected researcher and authority in the Japanese martial arts. He believes that in certain scenarios, Aikido can be quite effective for self-defense. Imagine you end up in some kind of riot or civil unrest, which is happening with greater frequency these days. If you need to get from point A to point B safely, through a group of people or a chaotic environment, Aikido is great for that. Aikido builds tactical positioning skill and situational awareness attributes that are far more applicable at allowing one to move through a crowd safely, than say MMA." -- Josh Gold

 

[Hanzou]

"And by the way, I don’t think the disadvantages or weaknesses of an art discounts its value. Every art has to specialize in something. For example, I’ve seen some stuff on the Internet where people criticize Aikido because it doesn’t do well in an MMA ring. Well that‘s not the point. I personally don’t think you should do that because you’re looking at an art out of context and asking it to perform in an environment it’s not designed for. " --- Dan Inosanto

The problem is that Aikido schools advertise their art as a highly effective form of self defense while playing up its martial history. In some cases they go the extra mile and say that Aikido is effective against multiple attackers.

When that’s the marketing push for a martial art, it’s a bit silly to expect people not to wonder why it wouldn’t be competitive in all martial settings including MMA. If Aikido was advertised in the same vein as Yoga or Tai Chi, Inosanto would have a better argument.

Consequently, Bjj is marketed in a similar way as Aikido (though I have yet to see a Bjj school advertise that Bjj is highly effective against multiple assailants), and it is a staple of MMA.

 

[drop bear]

"The other day, I was listening to a highly respected researcher and authority in the Japanese martial arts. He believes that in certain scenarios, Aikido can be quite effective for self-defense. Imagine you end up in some kind of riot or civil unrest, which is happening with greater frequency these days. If you need to get from point A to point B safely, through a group of people or a chaotic environment, Aikido is great for that. Aikido builds tactical positioning skill and situational awareness attributes that are far more applicable at allowing one to move through a crowd safely, than say MMA." -- Josh Gold

The principles don't really change from art to art.

There is a life savers race in Australia where you can push your opponent back.

And they counter that with underhooks.

 

[Martial D]

"The other day, I was listening to a highly respected researcher and authority in the Japanese martial arts. He believes that in certain scenarios, Aikido can be quite effective for self-defense. Imagine you end up in some kind of riot or civil unrest, which is happening with greater frequency these days. If you need to get from point A to point B safely, through a group of people or a chaotic environment, Aikido is great for that. Aikido builds tactical positioning skill and situational awareness attributes that are far more applicable at allowing one to move through a crowd safely, than say MMA." -- Josh Gold

It seems strange to me that people that train scripted movements, knowing where and when their 'uke' will charge at them with outstretched arms, while under 0 threat of attack,would have better positional awareness than people that are accustomed to having an actual opponent in front of them that could move in any direction and pose a threat of attack. The latter is what builds said awareness.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it stopped the arm from bending the opposite way, I could definitely see a practical use for it. However, in the end, it's just a parlor trick.

Just like this no-touch silliness. It's quite telling that there are actually people in the Aikido community who support it's validity, when it should be universally panned and dismissed.

It's literally training folks to use their muscles differently than a lot of folks manage to do naturally. Most of it is about tricking them into not tensing muscles that interfere with what they're doing. Not so much a parlor trick as a training trick. The way it's used in demos is a bit of a parlor trick, but that can be said of almost anything that's simple and most audiences don't understand.

I look at it this way - I've used juggling to help folks improve hand-eye coordination and proprioception. It can also be used to impress people if you're any good at it, but that use doesn't really affect whether people get a training benefit form it.

 

[Steve]

It's literally training folks to use their muscles differently than a lot of folks manage to do naturally. Most of it is about tricking them into not tensing muscles that interfere with what they're doing. Not so much a parlor trick as a training trick. The way it's used in demos is a bit of a parlor trick, but that can be said of almost anything that's simple and most audiences don't understand.

I look at it this way - I've used juggling to help folks improve hand-eye coordination and proprioception. It can also be used to impress people if you're any good at it, but that use doesn't really affect whether people get a training benefit form it.

Do you juggle actual balls, or do you just sort of pantomime the motion of juggling? Or perhaps you use juggling balls that are all attached to a stick and some string so there is no chance of dropping one?

I taught myself to juggle. Only got pretty good at three balls. But I can pretend to juggle like nobody's business, even up to seven chainsaws.

That's the difference between what you are talking about and what others are talking about.

 

[Hanzou]

It's literally training folks to use their muscles differently than a lot of folks manage to do naturally. Most of it is about tricking them into not tensing muscles that interfere with what they're doing. Not so much a parlor trick as a training trick. The way it's used in demos is a bit of a parlor trick, but that can be said of almost anything that's simple and most audiences don't understand.

I look at it this way - I've used juggling to help folks improve hand-eye coordination and proprioception. It can also be used to impress people if you're any good at it, but that use doesn't really affect whether people get a training benefit form it.

What's the application of knowing this? I can see Juggling improving your hand eye coordination, but what does the unbendable arm trick benefit on a practical basis outside of simply showing a rube how "magical" Aikido is?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It seems strange to me that people that train scripted movements, knowing where and when their 'uke' will charge at them with outstretched arms, while under 0 threat of attack,would have better positional awareness than people that are accustomed to having an actual opponent in front of them that could move in any direction and pose a threat of attack. The latter is what builds said awareness.

I expect the quote is addressing the type of movement used in those drills, but mostly developed and reinforced in the "randori" they do (not the same live randori as, say, Judo). It seems to me the primary purpose of their randori is to practice moving through multiple people, controlling space and distancing. Don't know if it's as effective as the quoted person feels.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you juggle actual balls, or do you just sort of pantomime the motion of juggling? Or perhaps you use juggling balls that are all attached to a stick and some string so there is no chance of dropping one?

I taught myself to juggle. Only got pretty good at three balls. But I can pretend to juggle like nobody's business, even up to seven chainsaws.

That's the difference between what you are talking about and what others are talking about.

Let's stick to what was under discussion in the side thread in question: the unbendable arm "ki" technique. With that, you're working with a real arm, and a real partner. Just like the real bean bags I use in juggling exercises.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's the application of knowing this? I can see Juggling improving your hand eye coordination, but what does the unbendable arm trick benefit on a practical basis outside of simply showing a rube how "magical" Aikido is?

It really doesn't seem magical at all to those learning it. The practical use is learning to keep an extended arm (distance control in some techniques, for instance) without having to keep a rigid arm (using too many muscles for the purpose) and while practicing the posture many of the techniques perform best with. The same principles work with a bent arm, too. To some extent, the relaxed/unbending arm is part of the way we do our front/side rolls, too - a place where students who start after age 30 tend to really struggle with the concept.

It was never a major focus, mind you. It gets used when students aren't using the principles well in a given technique, and otherwise touched on a couple of times a year when going back to work on body principles. Most students get the basic arm part of it in a single session. Most will get the larger body concept in it after they've worked a few techniques that emphasise those principles. In my opinion, all of the "ki" techniques I learned were just ways to practice relaxed control of the body in ways that make some of the techniques easier and less effortfull (they never become effortless, obviously).

 

[Cynik75]

 

[Steve]

Let's stick to what was under discussion in the side thread in question: the unbendable arm "ki" technique. With that, you're working with a real arm, and a real partner. Just like the real bean bags I use in juggling exercises.

I think my analogy is more relevant, but you stick with whatever makes you feel better.

 

[Hanzou]

Interesting that all of those guys who made Aikido work were huge dudes who had combat sport experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think my analogy is more relevant, but you stick with whatever makes you feel better.

You tried to tie my comment to something it wasn't addressing. Don't know what analogy you were headed toward, but it wasn't relevant to the post you quoted.

 

[jobo]

The problem is that Aikido schools advertise their art as a highly effective form of self defense while playing up its martial history. In some cases they go the extra mile and say that Aikido is effective against multiple attackers.

When that’s the marketing push for a martial art, it’s a bit silly to expect people not to wonder why it wouldn’t be competitive in all martial settings including MMA. If Aikido was advertised in the same vein as Yoga or Tai Chi, Inosanto would have a better argument.

Consequently, Bjj is marketed in a similar way as Aikido (though I have yet to see a Bjj school advertise that Bjj is highly effective against multiple assailants), and it is a staple of MMA.

which school' do this ?

 

[Steve]

You tried to tie my comment to something it wasn't addressing. Don't know what analogy you were headed toward, but it wasn't relevant to the post you quoted.

You mention juggling. You used juggling as an analogy to highlight the differences between application and demonstrations. I fleshed out your analogy, so that it addresses the difference between what one can do and what one can pretend to do. As I said, I can juggle three balls pretty well... I don't drop them and can even do a few tricks. But I can't juggle more than three items, and I certainly can't juggle chainsaws. How do I know this? Because I actually do it.

I presume when you juggle, you actually have some objects (guessing three balls or beanbags, but could be anything) and you literally throw them around in a continuous manner. That's application. You are, at that point, juggling. You may be good at it. You may not be good at it. You may be REALLY good at. How do you know how good you are at it? Well, when you try to juggle, you get a lot of immediate feedback.

And the point is, some folks can't do what they purport to do in a demo, and some can. I can juggle three balls. From a demonstration, it's impossible for a lay person to distinguish between someone showing them functional expertise in its best light and someone showing them complete theater... a façade of functional expertise that is unrealistic.

I hope this explains it a little more clearly.

 

[Hanzou]

which school' do this ?

See post #799.

 

[jobo]

The problem is that Aikido schools advertise their art as a highly effective form of self defense while playing up its martial history. In some cases they go the extra mile and say that Aikido is effective against multiple attackers.

When that’s the marketing push for a martial art, it’s a bit silly to expect people not to wonder why it wouldn’t be competitive in all martial settings including MMA. If Aikido was advertised in the same vein as Yoga or Tai Chi, Inosanto would have a better argument.

Consequently, Bjj is marketed in a similar way as Aikido (though I have yet to see a Bjj school advertise that Bjj is highly effective against multiple assailants), and it is a staple of MMA.

which school' do this ?

See post #799.

this one,

Martial Arts | Aikido Center of Atlanta | United States

Oldest Aikido dojo in Atlanta, founded in 1967. Offering Online Classes for Children and Adults, as well as Advanced Classes for Adults Members. Charter Member of the United States Aikido Federation.

www.aikidocenterofatlanta.com

that doesnt say its extremly effective form of self defence, it doesnt

it says is an extremly effective martial art, which as I'm sure you will agree is not what you said it said

do you have any that say that or are you going to modify your claim?

 

[Hanzou]

which school' do this ?

this one,

Martial Arts | Aikido Center of Atlanta | United States

Oldest Aikido dojo in Atlanta, founded in 1967. Offering Online Classes for Children and Adults, as well as Advanced Classes for Adults Members. Charter Member of the United States Aikido Federation.

www.aikidocenterofatlanta.com

that doesnt say its extremly effective form of self defence, it doesnt

it says is an extremly effective martial art, which as I'm sure you will agree is not what you said it said

do you have any that say that or are you going to modify your claim?

So when they say that they’re effective against larger opponents and multiple attackers, they’re not saying they’re an effective form of self defense?

 

[jobo]

So when they say that they’re effective against larger opponents and multiple attackers, they’re not saying they’re an effective form of self defense?

they didnt say what you claim they said, that's clear, if you want to make another accurate statemen, then we can discuss it.

I asked, " which school said that" and you indicated that one, , there no where left to go with it now, you were just wrong