Push Hands Fail

[JowGaWolf9]

there is not a lot of force needed to knock you over, or unbalance you.

This is my understanding of it as well. Part of me wants to say yes and part of me wants to say no.

The part of me that wants to say yes is the part that knows that you guys take into consideration of force + conditioning. The part of me that wants to say no is because I know some people think that they can be weak and not use force.

All the things I've personally done without a lot of force has always been relative to my conditioning. I don't know anyone who does martial arts application who is weak. They always had freakish power that one could feel even if they weren't applying it. I'm not disagreeing with you post, but I just see how "not a lot of force" can be interpreted as being weak and not having a lot of force.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

This is my understanding of it as well. Part of me wants to say yes and part of me wants to say no.

The part of me that wants to say yes is the part that knows that you guys take into consideration of force + conditioning. The part of me that wants to say no is because I know some people think that they can be weak and not use force.

All the things I've personally done without a lot of force has always been relative to my conditioning. I don't know anyone who does martial arts application who is weak. They always had freakish power that one could feel even if they weren't applying it. I'm not disagreeing with you post, but I just see how "not a lot of force" can be interpreted as being weak and not having a lot of force.

None of this has to do with being weak and using force, it has to do with being relaxed and using your whole body, especially the core. My yang shifu is considerably smaller than I am, but he could stay relaxed, control the situation and i’d inevitably end up locked, or losing my balance, or on the floor looking up. The cotton covered steel analogy best explains it

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

The part of me that wants to say no is because I know some people think that they can be weak and not use force.

Can a Taiji guy move a 200 lb rock without using force? No Taiji guys can do that.

You can move your opponent without using force only when you can borrow his force. What if your opponent just acts like a piece of dead meat that you just can't borrow his force?

I have fought an "earth" strategy opponent in Karate tournament. My opponent moved in inch by inch with solid defense. All my kicks and punches were blocked by his strong defense.

In one Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament, I used "circular dragging". My opponent resisted so hard that I released my grip, his body flew back and landed on the ground. I use 0 force to throw him. But I did use force to drag him.

In order to borrow force, you have to give your own force first.

 

[Appledog34 7]

What you are witnessing in real time is the intentional dilution of taijiquan.

If you understand what Tai Chi is supposed to be about and why it is trained the way it is trained, you will instantly realize that you can never apply tai chi principles in a situation like this. The reason why is not because it is too difficult, it is because you have already compromised those principles and at the point shown you might as well do whatever you can-- fight with whatever other skills you have, because you won't be able to use anything you learned in Tai Chi.

(and, it goes without saying, that if you don't understand those principles or why it is trained the way it is trained, you have to fight with other skills anyways, so there's no point in discussing it with those people.)

I've been thinking about this problem for a long time and I think I have a solution, but there are many steps which must be performed first.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

What you are witnessing in real time is the intentional dilution of taijiquan.

If you understand what Tai Chi is supposed to be about and why it is trained the way it is trained, you will instantly realize that you can never apply tai chi principles in a situation like this. The reason why is not because it is too difficult, it is because you have already compromised those principles and at the point shown you might as well do whatever you can-- fight with whatever other skills you have, because you won't be able to use anything you learned in Tai Chi.

That's an interested argument. Are you saying there is something missing if one tries to use Taiji only for combat?

 

[Appledog34 7]

That's an interested argument. Are you saying there is something missing if one tries to use Taiji only for combat?

There are a few ways to think about it. One of them is that, if we discover we do not know the answer to the question, then we should admit it and this will allow us to find a different answer. This is just a natural process. However, ultimately, if our goal is to learn tai chi then it seems we should train to learn tai chi. Constantly failing in this task is not success just because it is practiced a lot.

The wrench in the machine is that several big name schools and organizations have gotten behind the 'wrestling is push hands' boat and started pushing. So its getting harder to figure out what is real.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

Kung Fu Wang :
Can a Taiji guy move a 200 lb rock without using force? No Taiji guys can do that.

So its getting harder to figure out what is real.

What is “real”?

This question was asked in another setting long ago…

Yang Luchan (1799–1872) is often credited with responding to doubts about his “soft” method by saying he could not defeat men made of wood, iron, or stone — pointing to the idea that his method depends on interaction, not force.

Whether the wording is exact or not, the meaning is clear: what is being expressed is not technique in isolation, but how one works with what is there.

That’s where the question of “real” becomes less straightforward.

Push hands, as a training method, seems to have taken on a more fixed and limited form in many places. Historically, it was also used to test skill across individuals and groups — not just practiced within a closed format.

There are accounts of such exchanges. One story describes Ma Gui (马贵), a noted Bagua practitioner, who, when invited to try against Yang Banhou, sent him flying upon contact — a reminder that skill was often revealed through direct interaction rather than controlled patterns.

The question is often raised — what if there is nothing to borrow? In practice, there is always something there. Even a seemingly “dead” or unresponsive opponent still has structure, weight, and intent. By becoming more negative — releasing, settling, and not opposing — it often draws out a corresponding positive response. This is counterintuitive for many, but it’s part of what makes the method distinct.

So when we ask what is “real,” it may be less about choosing between methods, and more about whether what is trained can actually function when the conditions are no longer controlled.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

So when we ask what is “real,”

The reality is your opponent wants to knock your head off. Can your PH training be able to deal with that?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

if our goal is to learn tai chi then it seems we should train to learn tai chi.

I can never be able to understand this kind of thinking. I want to learn combat. If a MA style can help me in combat, I want to learn that.

I can learn this move from Taiji Peng or from Chinese wrestling "arm raising", it makes no difference to me one way or another.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

Reality of one's training depends on focus. Push hands can be used as one of several ways to test specific qualities — sensitivity, timing, balance, and response — rather than as a complete model of fighting in itself.

It can also serve as a transition point. Once those qualities are developed, they don’t remain confined to push hands, but can carry over into other forms of application training, depending on the skill sets developed through it.

What ultimately matters is whether those qualities still function when the conditions change.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

If you understand what Tai Chi is supposed to be about and why it is trained the way it is trained, you will instantly realize that you can never apply tai chi principles in a situation like this.

I'm curious why you think this and what do you use to base this on? How should Tai Chi be used against grappling? How should tai chi be used against punches and kicks?

If a Greco Roman wrestler grabbed you, what is the Taji solution for that? My understanding is very simple, there are groin strikes, throws, hand strikes, punches, kicks, and bone breaks. So I'm very curious about your statement. "Tai Chi is supposed to be about and why it is trained the way it is trained"

 

[JowGaWolf9]

I can never be able to understand this kind of thinking. I want to learn combat. If a MA style can help me in combat, I want to learn that.

I can learn this move from Taiji Peng or from Chinese wrestling "arm raising", it makes no difference to me one way or another.

Jow Ga Kung Fu has a similar move but smaller. The concept is the same. 1. Separate the hands 2. seize the arms. / Control the arms Here's Jow Ga's version. You have to watch the motion hands and not the kick. The hands are turned outward to hook or seized the arms.

Yang Style 24. Similar movement

When I see similar movements across systems I start to wonder if that movement /technique is highly successful in practical use

My application of this technique would be to use this if someone tried to grab my guard, similar to what is shown here.

Crossing the arms prevents the grab and places my hands above his allowing me to strike my opponents face without restriction or to send an elbow up the middle, or to grab and kick, or to grab like you showed in your video. In the technique moving into cat stance while doing this allows me to move with my opponent. This shifts the point of focus where he expects to grab me. My body moves out of range with the option to move forward with a strike or to stay in cat and kick.

Either way the important part is to control the center and to move the opponent's arm outwards.

I would also use it against this grab as well

We see the movement again. It's everywhere in multiple systems.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

Reality of one's training depends on focus.

I agree 100% Which is why it's so important to understand the focus on how we train and if that focus is rooted in health, fighting, or relaxation. Many confuse the focus. It's like punching a heavy bag. There are many aspects that a person can focus on. Gloves on vs Gloves off. Cardio boxing vs Fight application. The focus is different.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

What ultimately matters is whether those qualities still function when the conditions change.

I agree with this statement as well. I had to use Ai to make my original statement easier to understand.

I agree with this. It’s also why I don’t like when martial artists abandon a technique and change it into something completely different from what the form was actually training.

If a technique doesn’t work well in one role, don’t throw it away — test its function in another role:

• If it’s weak as a strike, see if it works better as a grappling entry.
• If it’s weak offensively, check whether it was meant to be defensive.

And sometimes what looks like “one long technique” in the form — Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 — is actually separate techniques strung together, not one continuous move. They only look like a single sequence, but they’re really individual solutions placed back‑to‑back.

Don't assume the form is the only way to apply a technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Here is one good example of the advantage of double hands grab the wrists. At 0.16, the moment that his opponent drops his right hand and breaks his opponent's grip, the moment that his face is exposed for his opponent's punch.

When A grabs on B, and B tries to break loose, B is already 1 step behind.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

This 2 hands grip is a NO NO. The moment that your opponent breaks your grip (against your thumb), the moment that his hand in on top and inside your arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

I don’t like when martial artists abandon a technique and change it into something completely different from what the form was actually training.

Many teachers teach this way - This is the form. Here is the application for the 1st move.

I like a teacher who can teach this way - This is the application. Here is a form that contain this technique".

Unfortunately, so far, I still have not met a teacher who teach the 2nd way.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

TJQ is not that simple a thought that it’s an exercise about struggle scenarios such as “what to do “if someone grab, strike, kick in certain ways at you, traditionally such basics had been learned before entering the method of TJQ , most if not all of Yang Luchan’s students were already accomplished in “what to do” combat scenarios , and so was Yang Luchan himself before stepping up into the Taiji realm.
In this sense TJQ is beyond combat and struggle, to the point one could consider dropping the “quan” from the “Taiji”, maybe that would prove to be a booster since the “quan” seems to be more of a barrier, a hindrance, a struggle

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

TJQ is not that simple a thought that it’s an exercise about struggle scenarios such as “what to do “if someone grab, strike, kick in certain ways at you, traditionally such basics had been learned before entering the method of TJQ , most if not all of Yang Luchan’s students were already accomplished in “what to do” combat scenarios , and so was Yang Luchan himself before stepping up into the Taiji realm.
In this sense TJQ is beyond combat and struggle, to the point one could consider dropping the “quan” from the “Taiji”, maybe that would prove to be a booster since the “quan” seems to be more of a barrier, a hindrance, a struggle

interesting point.
When I got to Taijiquan, with my first Shifu, I came from Japanese Jiujutsu and TKD. So I knew what to do, or so I thought (kinda sorta). When I got to my Yang Shifu I found I was not exactly correct. I was working way to hard to accomplish what he was doing with so much less effort. So there is a difference in application, which is why when I see things like "Combat Taijiquan" or questions about "What would you do if" or videos of thing 1 being done and saying taijiquan could not handle this. I get a but annoyed. That is the thing about taijiquan, there are very few places where you can say "If he does 'A' I will do 'B'" Not every attack, even though they look the same, is the same and the responses to that may vary. Now if someone throws a punch or kick, I block, and not always the same block for what appears to be the same punch. No idea why I do that, I just do, and it works. Same if someone grabs me, reponse depends on where thei energy s going, or how surprised I was. But I tend to always relax, its just a reflex, and that makes things harder for them. I have been to MA seminars where, for some reason, the insturctor picks me out of the crowd to do a demo, possible he wanted the biggest guy in the group, I don't know. But they grab me to do the technique, and I automatically relax, and they can't do what they were trying to demonstrate, then I get told "You can't relax" that is the point I generally say, I'm sorry, my back is bothering me, and excuse myself from the demo.

However, one guy didn't care. I was at a Karate seminar, given by Fumio Demura, working on an application that had a takedown in it. I was trying not to relax, becsuse it was frustrating my training partner. Then my partner called Demura Sensei over and complained about my relaxing. Demura Sensei then took his place, ahd me do the attack, and put me on the floor. He looked at my training partner and said, "tense, relax, no difference, if done correctly." and moved on to others in the class.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

My Shifu put me on the floor with high pat in one of our push hands sessions.