Push Hands Fail

windwalker099

windwalker099102

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"We have Wu Style Tai Chi Master Sun Jian Guo showing off some tai chi extravagance when a random stranger challenges him. Let's see if this Tai Chi master can do his push hands awesomeness on a non-compliant partner. Note, this is Wu third tone, not Wu second tone. The two styles of Tai Chi are often confused. Either way, enjoy the spectacle and the unintended humor."
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Interesting clip.

Is he actually considered a master in China by those familiar with him?
Why was he unable to achieve the same results with the stranger that he demonstrated with his student?

It raises an interesting question about how demonstrations translate when the partner is not part of the practice.

Has anyone had a similar experience when someone, after seeing a demo, wanted to test whether what was demonstrated would work on them?
 
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It can work. I had a boss who was a former pro football defensive back (outweighing me by at least 80 lbs.) and during a slow time we engaged in an "Indian wrestling" match, lead right legs adjacent, each grabbing the other's right hand, attempting to push/pull the other off balance. I beat him 2 out of 3. He was confused how he lost.
 
isshinryuronin said:
It can work. I had a boss who was a former pro football defensive back (outweighing me by at least 80 lbs.) and during a slow time we engaged in an "Indian wrestling" match, lead right legs adjacent, each grabbing the other's right hand, attempting to push/pull the other off balance. I beat him 2 out of 3. He was confused how he lost.
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😂very good…

Looking at the video care to share any aspects of why it might not have worked as well it did with the student….What would you suggest the teacher do to make it work better ?
 
windwalker099 said:
Looking at the video care to share any aspects of why it might not have worked as well it did with the student….What would you suggest the teacher do to make it work better ?
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Perhaps his big mistake was initiating too much, rather than letting the opponent help defeat himself.
 
IMHO
Upper lower unity issue, not using the waist, trying constantly to manufacture a place to attempt fajin, no stick, no follow, also trying way to hard to not look bad.

This is the Wu style that comes from Wu Yuxiang?
 

Some thoughts…

If you play the video at its slowest speed, it appears he is issuing from his left leg through the right arm/hand at the contact point. He does not appear to be seeking a particular point or place from which to issue. At that moment he seems somewhat off balance, yet he still maintains his 重心 (Zhòngxīn) — center of gravity. He takes what is given and returns it without thought.

What we see may actually begin as a correct reaction. The problem seems to arise when he tries to do something he already knows how to do. Attempting to manufacture the outcome throws off his timing, among other things.

With his students he likely does not need to “try” to do it. The response can occur naturally the context and mindset are different.
 
windwalker099 said:
Wu 武 style Taijiquan master Sun Jianguo from Guangfu will be in Switzerland till 12th April.

not a fan of his training clips, shown on face book...
they do help to understand what happened in the clip.
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He does nt impress me. And rest of the clips seem to be yiquan. I trained some push hands with an yiquan sifu. He was dang good, and what he did was closer to a xingyiquan push hands. I was show a back fist more than once aardvark a bengquan too during those sessions.
 
windwalker099 said:
Why was he unable to achieve the same results with the stranger that he demonstrated with his student?
Click to expand...
His student gave him the opportunity. His opponent didn't give him the opportunity. He needs to create opportunity on his opponent, but he didn't do a good job.

If he uses pull -> push -> pull -> push -> ..., he should be able to create his opportunity soon or later.

At 0.10, he used yielding (not pulling) on his student because his student pushed him (he knows how to borrow force). But he had never done any pulling on his student/opponent.

Why "pulling" is not in his skill set?

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Xue Sheng said:
He does nt impress me. And rest of the clips seem to be yiquan. I trained some push hands with an yiquan sifu. He was dang good, and what he did was closer to a xingyiquan push hands. I was show a back fist more than once aardvark a bengquan too during those sessions.
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Hey! Leave the aardvarks outta this!!!
 
Xue Sheng said:
He does nt impress me. And rest of the clips seem to be yiquan. I trained some push hands with an yiquan sifu. He was dang good, and what he did was closer to a xingyiquan push hands. I was show a back fist more than once aardvark a bengquan too during those sessions.
Click to expand...
I can’t see the videos posted, but I suspect it’s the Mr Sun I think(he’s got a chairman Mao haircut ?) , then it’s the Wu(Hao) style Taijiquan, and they do three Yiquanesque posture practice, actually Yang and the other Wu do them too.
 
What’s interesting with Wu/(Hao) Taiji is the first couple of moves of their form, that step in 45 degrees to left then right(the original way) + it’s arm movement(techniques) with those steps have strong similarities with opening steps of some traditional Karate katas
 
Same Trick said:
I can’t see the videos posted, but I suspect it’s the Mr Sun I think(he’s got a chairman Mao haircut ?) , then it’s the Wu(Hao) style Taijiquan, and they do three Yiquanesque posture practice, actually Yang and the other Wu do them too.
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I did not know that. But they have several videos on that site that are labelled Yiquan, and they are of push hands. And I'm not surprised you can't see it. It is on FaceBook, so you won't be able to see it in China.
 
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Same Trick said:
I can’t see the videos posted, but I suspect it’s the Mr Sun I think(he’s got a chairman Mao haircut ?) , then it’s the Wu(Hao) style Taijiquan, and they do three Yiquanesque posture practice, actually Yang and the other Wu do them too.
Click to expand...

You might be able to find some of the teacher’s work on Youku or Tencent Video using the video description:


“We have Wu Style Tai Chi Master Sun Jian Guo showing off some tai chi extravagance when a random stranger challenges him. Let's see if this Tai Chi master can do his push hands awesomeness on a non-compliant partner. Note, this is Wu third tone, not Wu second tone. The two styles of Tai Chi are often confused. Either way, enjoy the spectacle and the unintended humor.”
Click to expand...

The video shows the teacher interacting with a member of the audience who wanted to test him.

It appeared that the teacher lost some of his composure, perhaps feeling he was put on the spot, and attempted to do something he could already do naturally. In doing so, the result was not completely successful.
 
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windwalker099 said:



Interesting clip.

Is he actually considered a master in China by those familiar with him?
Why was he unable to achieve the same results with the stranger that he demonstrated with his student?

It raises an interesting question about how demonstrations translate when the partner is not part of the practice.

Has anyone had a similar experience when someone, after seeing a demo, wanted to test whether what was demonstrated would work on them?
Click to expand...
It happens in BJJ. Sometimes you get a guy who just does the wrong thing and frustrates you.

But of course if it is frustrating you. It isn't the wrong thing.

I have gotten used to separating my expectations from reality and using those cucumstances to solve problems. And create a better game.

The solution is you train with more people who don't know your system and don't want to let you win.
 
When your opponent moves

- forward with force Y and you apply pushing force X, the result will be X - Y < X.
- backward with force Y and you apply pushing force X, the result will be X + Y > X.

How to make your opponent to move backward is the key. If you just wait, it may never happen. You have to make it happen.
 
Kung Fu Wang said:
In your opinion, is "pulling" not part of his Taiji skillset?
Click to expand...

Look at the timing of his knee with his student:




Now compare that to the timing when he interacts with the stranger:




With the student, the timing between the knee and the issuing action is coordinated and natural.


With the stranger, it appears he is trying to produce the same outcome, but the intent coming from the other person is different. Because of that, the timing changes and he is unable to adjust to it.

The issue may not be whether pulling is part of his Taiji skillset, but whether he was able to adjust his timing and response to the different intent. By trying to produce the result, he ended up breaking the method he trained to develop.
 
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windwalker099 said:
You might be able to find some of the teacher’s work on Youku or Tencent Video using the video description:




The video shows the teacher interacting with a member of the audience who wanted to test him.

It appeared that the teacher lost some of his composure, perhaps feeling he was put on the spot, and attempted to do something he could already do naturally. In doing so, the result was not completely successful.
Click to expand...
Yes it can happen when one only stay and mix within one’s own community/circle
 
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