about that

[Buka]

i concur. especially on the Hugh Jackman video. i usually don't let stuff like that bother me but the fact of the matter is I've heard like 300 people say or imply that grappling and BJJ are pretty much invincible. kind of a sore spot for me

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....oh, wait.

Years ago I heard someone state that a BJJ practitioner with a years experience would beat a Karate black belt with 25 years experience. I laughed my butt off. Then the opportunity arose to see what all the nonsense was about. I'm always in favor of taking opportunities.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....oh, wait.

Years ago I heard someone state that a BJJ practitioner with a years experience would beat a Karate black belt with 25 years experience. I laughed my butt off. Then the opportunity arose to see what all the nonsense was about. I'm always in favor of taking opportunities.

I've heard people say stuff like that maybe 1000 times. now i took BJJ for over two years and i'm not denying that it's a great martial art... it's just this superiority complex stuff that bothers me

 

[Gerry Seymour]

grappling is striking.

But if you want to annoy your mates.

Or wave some statistics at them.
UFC Fight Outcomes by Weight Class – Fight Matrix

And now your day can go more like this.

Yeah, I've never gotten the striking-vs-grappling arguments.

 

[Buka]

It's kind of like arguing about salt and pepper.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't let what people say bother you, bro. Especially people marketing something. And most especially on the internet. We all be crazy.

But one great thing came of that....I never saw the Hugh Jackman vid Drop Bear posted. That was way cool.

Yeah, not sure how I missed that. Gotta show it to the Hobbit later.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i concur. especially on the Hugh Jackman video. i usually don't let stuff like that bother me but the fact of the matter is I've heard like 300 people say or imply that grappling and BJJ are pretty much invincible. kind of a sore spot for me

Pretty much all of that is based upon how BJJ did when it surprised people. When it's not surprising, it's not so dominant. Someone with no real takedown defense can be taken down easily - by BJJ, Judo, western wrestling, and a bunch of other stuff. Someone with good takedown defense is much harder to take down...because defense.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Pretty much all of that is based upon how BJJ did when it surprised people. When it's not surprising, it's not so dominant. Someone with no real takedown defense can be taken down easily - by BJJ, Judo, western wrestling, and a bunch of other stuff. Someone with good takedown defense is much harder to take down...because defense.

my thoughts exactly

 

[Flying Crane]

i concur. especially on the Hugh Jackman video. i usually don't let stuff like that bother me but the fact of the matter is I've heard like 300 people say or imply that grappling and BJJ are pretty much invincible. kind of a sore spot for me

Those 300 people are wrong. Don’t worry about what they say.

Do what you find interesting and useful, and don’t think you ever need to justify your reasons for training to anybody.

It is easy to get into endless debates on this issue, on the internet. I suggest you resist the temptation. Nobody ever changes anybody’s mind, and often the debate and discussion simply deteriorates. In addition, some people take every opportunity they can find to try and push their point of view. Engaging in discussion with those people is usually pointless. Give it a try if you wish. But know when to walk away.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, not sure how I missed that. Gotta show it to the Hobbit later.

Reminds me of my favorite music video. From the same year as the Jackman commercial.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Those 300 people are wrong. Don’t worry about what they say.

Do what you find interesting and useful, and don’t think you ever need to justify your reasons for training to anybody.

It is easy to get into endless debates on this issue, on the internet. I suggest you resist the temptation. Nobody ever changes anybody’s mind, and often the debate and discussion simply deteriorates. In addition, some people take every opportunity they can find to try and push their point of view. Engaging in discussion with those people is usually pointless. Give it a try if you wish. But know when to walk away.

that's actually really good advice thank you. I've had a few debates on this site but the fact of the matter is I don't even enjoy debating... i like what you said about knowing when to walk away

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but if you can't lock the clinch in the first place, it won't work regardless of what martial art you are using.

When you use

- MT clinch, you try to control your opponent's head. You then try to strike him with your knee.
- wrestling clinch, you try to control your opponent's arms, head, waist, leg, .... You then try to take him down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Years ago I heard someone state that a BJJ practitioner with a years experience would beat a Karate black belt with 25 years experience.

“三年拳不如一年跤”

Old Chinese saying said, "3 years of Chinese striking art training cannot match with 1 year of Chinese wrestling training."

The difference is during the first 3 years of the Chinese striking art training (this may not apply to boxing), beginners are still doing stance and form. But during the 1st year of the Chinese wrestling training, the beginners have already wrestled.

Old Chinese saying have never said whether life time striking art training can defeat life time wrestling training, or the other way around.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Reminds me of my favorite music video. From the same year as the Jackman commercial.

Yeah, we immediately played that one after the Jackman commercial. Love Walken in that! I looked it up, and it looks like it's much earlier. The Walken video won an award or two in 2001. I can't find a reference to the Jackman commercial prior to 2010.

 

[Flying Crane]

back to the "before it starts" subject, as shown in the.video, you want to avoid getting locked in the clinch in the first place. now i'm not familiar with the differences between MT clinches and Wrestling clinches, but i don't see how it would change avoiding the clinch before it even happens. even in Muay Thai once the clinch is locked in the person on the receiving end of the clinch could be in trouble. but if you can't lock the clinch in the first place, it won't work regardless of what martial art you are using.

How is this any different from defending against a strike? Those defenses heavily rely on defending before the strike lands. Once the punch drills into the nose, it is too late to defend against the punch.

So it’s the same argument. If someone gets a good hold or lock or takedown on you, and you are tied up, there might not be much you can do. So you try to defend before you get into that bad of a situation.

Likewise, if someone drills you in the ribs with a side kick, it’s too late to defend against that side kick. So you try to defend against it before it lands.

It’s all the same.

Personally, I think a lot of people don’t understand how to really hit hard, or are reluctant to actually do so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's actually really good advice thank you. I've had a few debates on this site but the fact of the matter is I don't even enjoy debating... i like what you said about knowing when to walk away

Even for those of us who love debating (I'm one of them), you still have to know when to walk away. It stops being fun at some point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you use

- MT clinch, you try to control your opponent's head. You then try to strike him with your knee.
- wrestling clinch, you try to control your opponent's arms, head, waist, leg, .... You then try to take him down.

Not really so much difference. Muay Thai clinch controls structure - that's our primary aim much of the time in grappling, too. They control structure to weaken their opponent and make openings for strikes. Grapplers do it to weaken them and make openings to take down or throw. I'm more grappler than striker, but I use a lot of the same control either way in clinch.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

How is this any different from defending against a strike? Those defenses heavily rely on defending before the strike lands. Once the punch drills into the nose, it is too late to defend against the punch.

So it’s the same argument. If someone gets a good hold or lock or takedown on you, and you are tied up, there might not be much you can do. So you try to defend before you get into that bad of a situation.

Likewise, if someone drills you in the ribs with a side kick, it’s too late to defend against that side kick. So you try to defend against it before it lands.

It’s all the same.

Personally, I think a lot of people don’t understand how to really hit hard, or are reluctant to actually do so.

i never said it was different than defending against a strike. or if i did, i don't remember it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i never said it was different than defending against a strike. or if i did, i don't remember it

The difference between a striker's punch and a wrestler's punch is:

- The striker's punch is just a punch.
- The wrestler's punch is a punch followed by a pull.

A striker's punch:

A wrestler's punch:

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

The difference between a striker's punch and a wrestler's punch is:

- The striker's punch is just a punch.
- The wrestler's punch is a punch followed by a pull.

A striker's punch:

A wrestler's punch:

those two spears basically look identical other than the bottom one is longer. i don't know if you are speaking metaphorically or what but i'm pretty sure wrestling does not incorporate punches

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

those two spears basically look identical other than the bottom one is longer. i don't know if you are speaking metaphorically or what but i'm pretty sure wrestling does not incorporate punches

The bottom spear has a hook. A wrestler can also train striking art.