Why Why Why?

[Kirk]

General Martial Arts Talk Threads:

Succesfully fighting two attackers: myth or reality? -Bushido

Who here is backing up its striking art with grappling? -Bushido

Why most Styles SUCK! - nbcdecon (claims Arnis, yet posts a LOT
in Grappling forum, go check it out)

Katas keep them or chuck them ? - asoka

Pankration Vs Traditional Asian Martial Arts. -asoka

Other Specific Style Forum Threads:

forms??? my kenpo rant! - cfr, who claims muay thai as his art

Muay Thai vs Judo - MTisGreat

Pankration Vs Traditional Asian Martial Arts. -asoka

Quotes:

Striking is not ineffective, it is just less effective than grappling, especially for the army. It is harder to knock someone out that to submit him (break bones). To me striking rely more on reflexes and timming, grappling more on technique. -Bushido

Muay Thai w/Gracie Jitsu
combining the best and brutal striking art in the world with one of the best grapples makes the firghter idestructable. -MTisGreat

By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose - asoka

Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.
-asoka

Muay Thai vs Judo ... who would win? -MTisGreat


-----------------

Now I wouldn't go so far as to say these are rude. And Bushido,
you honestly seem to try to have an open mind about it
all. What I don't understand, is why MT/Grapplers/MMA types are
just so flat out confrontational? Why put these subjects outside
of your own forum? What is it exactly that you guys are looking
for? No one that studies another style is going to say "y'know,
you guys are right! Thanks to your posts and comments, I now
realize that I've wasted X years of my life studying an art that is
of no use, and I should study YOUR art." It's just NOT gonna
happen? Sure, there's nothing wrong in thinking your respective
styles are superior. But do you really think you're going to change
anyone's mind? Y'all sure seem to comes across to me
as someone looking for some kind of validation??? Go to your
peers for that. Dog on all of us wasting our time with them.
Most civil MAists feel that there is no superior art, just superior
fighters. The UFC is no measure of what style is best, sorry.
You guys have posted enough already stating that you feel forms
are useless, asian styles are useless. Point made, you're not
going to convince others.

Also .. I asked this before, but I'll ask here again. The fact that
ninety plus percent of all fights go to the ground is brought up
often. Where is this stated as fact? I recall someone giving
credit to Royce or Ralph Gracie for that "fact". OF COURSE he's
going to say that, he has a market to capture! Where's the
proof?

The Gracie powers that be have acknowledged that grappling isn't
that great of a style in a mulitple attacker situation. Few BJJ guys
take THIS as fact, yet will constantly quote the "fact" that an
extremely large majority of fights go to the ground. I see a
conflict here. Care to explain? Now I'm seeing on this board,
and others that there's an attempt to find fact that NO style is
effective against multiple attackers. Why would one be looking
so hard for this, other than to again pump an ego or style as
being undefeatable.

Yes, this is a confrontational post. Let me say, if I'm wrong about
your intentions, then try convincing me of THAT. I mean no harm.
I am legitimately curious as to why IMO I see such confrontation
among your styles, more so than others.

Peace,

Kirk

 

[sweeper]

well from the few doormen I know they say most fights they see end up going to thre ground or ending in a couple hits..

maybe we need a conflict forum where people can post art vz art threds without pissing people off

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

nbcdecon (claims Arnis, yet posts a LOT
in Grappling forum, go check it out)

He is one of Mr. Hartman's black belts but does have other martial arts experience. I've met him before--he's an extremely polite and respectful person in person.

I might add another thread to your list ("Is Mr. Parker The Father Of American Karate?"):

"Yes......because he invented it." --cdhall

Or this thread:

"It will be nice when "American Kenpo" becomes the "Kleenex" of American Martial Arts." --C.E.Jackson

"I think it already is really. After all the main thing is that people now are realizing that Kenpo is the SYSTEM in which the individuals can develop their individual STYLES of.

Many individual styles out there (noses) but really one System or one box of tissue (Kleenex)!" --Goldendragon7

I might add the thread about how Krav Maga must have been influenced by Kenpo because it appears to be effective. I've never seen a group of martial artists as focused on the superiority of their art as Kenpoka. I'm glad they're happy with what they're doing but I often find their seeming insistence that only their system is logical, scientific, complete, modern, street-ready, what-have-you to be quite exasperating.

I encounter this Kenpocentrism frequently and find it quite off-putting. As to the MMA/BJJ/etc. bravado you mention, I have taken it principally as advertising. These younger arts remain in a growth phase. It can indeed be annoying at times though.

 

[karatekid1975]

I hate the art vs art thing. I don't get into them.

 

[SolidTiger]

I don't really think one art is better then the other, it's the skill of the fighter that matter. But their has always been questions in history asking who is the best, or who can beat the best.

Thank You

SolidTiger

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador



He is one of Mr. Hartman's black belts but does have other martial arts experience. I've met him before--he's an extremely polite and respectful person in person.

I might add another thread to your list ("Is Mr. Parker The Father Of American Karate?"):

"Yes......because he invented it." --cdhall

Or this thread:

"It will be nice when "American Kenpo" becomes the "Kleenex" of American Martial Arts." --C.E.Jackson

"I think it already is really. After all the main thing is that people now are realizing that Kenpo is the SYSTEM in which the individuals can develop their individual STYLES of.

Many individual styles out there (noses) but really one System or one box of tissue (Kleenex)!" --Goldendragon7

I might add the thread about how Krav Maga must have been influenced by Kenpo because it appears to be effective. I've never seen a group of martial artists as focused on the superiority of their art as Kenpoka. I'm glad they're happy with what they're doing but I often find their seeming insistence that only their system is logical, scientific, complete, modern, street-ready, what-have-you to be quite exasperating.

I encounter this Kenpocentrism frequently and find it quite off-putting. As to the MMA/BJJ/etc. bravado you mention, I have taken it principally as advertising. These younger arts remain in a growth phase. It can indeed be annoying at times though.

I give you the krav thread. But the quotes you gave were from
the kenpo forum. I stated that such boldness would be welcome
in their own grappling forum. But my eyes are more open now,
thanks to your post.

 

[Cthulhu]

Long ago, as a wee lad, I got caught up in the whole 'art vs. art', 'my style is better than your style' thing.

Then I grew up.

Cthulhu

 

[Nightingale]

no one art is better than any other art...

Kenpo is the best art...FOR ME. I spent hours researching different styles and found that kenpo had what I was looking for. Someone else might find that Krav Maga, TKD, or whatever, has what they want. if so, then that is the best art for them.

 

[sweeper]

it doesn't matter what forum people post on.. alot of the people hear read multiple forums so if there is a "kempo sucks" thred under the grappling forum it's still gona draw the attention of the kempo guys.. But realy if you see a Kempo sucks thred, you should know what the contents are gona be like by now so why click on it?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by sweeper

it doesn't matter what forum people post on.. alot of the people hear read multiple forums so if there is a "kempo sucks" thred under the grappling forum it's still gona draw the attention of the kempo guys.. But realy if you see a Kempo sucks thred, you should know what the contents are gona be like by now so why click on it?

I didn't mean it that way. I meant that they can go to their own
forum and talk about the superiority of their own art there. Why
do they have to post all over this site about? Why come to a
kenpo forum and post that way? What does it acheive? Why
bother? Yet the fact remains that plenty DO bother, and I'd just
like to know their motivation for it.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by karatekid1975

I hate the art vs art thing. I don't get into them.

Heh. Putting it simply works best.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by SolidTiger

I don't really think one art is better then the other, it's the skill of the fighter that matter.

I do think that some arts are better than others, but overwhelmingly I agree that the skill of the practitioner, and the type of training they use, is what matters most.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

But the quotes you gave were from
the kenpo forum. I stated that such boldness would be welcome
in their own grappling forum.

You're right, Kirk. I had something on my mind as you can see and it came out--I do agree with you that some of the posts you've mentioned have seemed, at the least, overly confrontational and might have been better posted to fellow enthusiasts rather than where they would be sure to lead to an art vs. art thing.

I like contrasting the strengths and weaknesses of various arts, but there are very few arts out there that truly deserve to be disparaged--and there's nothing to learn from "can an X_ka beat a Y_ka" questions.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sweeper

alot of the people hear read multiple forums so if there is a "kempo sucks" thred under the grappling forum it's still gona draw the attention of the kempo guys

Let me make clear that I was talking about kenpocentrism as what I disliked, not the art of kenpo itself.

It seems to me that there's a question lurking here, the same as on USENET: If there's a forum for Whatever-Jutsu, should it be for the positive discussion of it by practitioners and would-be practitioners or simply for the discussion of Whatever-Jutsu, positive or negative. On USENET this comes up on e.g. the astrology group, where astrologers want to discuss astrology in a positive way but many want to post about it being nonsense. If I thought MMA sucked, where should I discuss that--in Grappling, where people are largely pro-MMA? Or in General? It isn't clear.

On USENET the concept of "their own forum" is largely rejected--a forum on X is for the discussion of X, pro or con. Here at Martialtalk the "their own forum" concept has largely prevailed. I think that's probably for the best.

 

[Rich Parsons]

You all suck, Gou is the best, just ask him!

Sad when a guy stays out of a thread and still gets pulled into it by others.

Seriously though, the confrontational thing has been noticed, by me and a couple of others I have talked too.

Now to address the cross thread, well sometimes when you read or even 'Dare' post for a thread not under your main training, some people find it fun / interesting / in their best interests/ etc., ..., to either make fun of you or to slam you or the one I like the best, ignore your question all together, since they do not know who you are.

Yes, this could be a vent post, but I agree with the original Question: WHY? WHY? of WHY?

Just my lousy opinion

Rich

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by arnisador



He is one of Mr. Hartman's black belts but does have other martial arts experience. I've met him before--he's an extremely polite and respectful person in person.

I might add another thread to your list ("Is Mr. Parker The Father Of American Karate?"):

"Yes......because he invented it." --cdhall

Or this thread:

"It will be nice when "American Kenpo" becomes the "Kleenex" of American Martial Arts." --C.E.Jackson

"I think it already is really. After all the main thing is that people now are realizing that Kenpo is the SYSTEM in which the individuals can develop their individual STYLES of.

Many individual styles out there (noses) but really one System or one box of tissue (Kleenex)!" --Goldendragon7

I might add the thread about how Krav Maga must have been influenced by Kenpo because it appears to be effective. I've never seen a group of martial artists as focused on the superiority of their art as Kenpoka. I'm glad they're happy with what they're doing but I often find their seeming insistence that only their system is logical, scientific, complete, modern, street-ready, what-have-you to be quite exasperating.

I encounter this Kenpocentrism frequently and find it quite off-putting. As to the MMA/BJJ/etc. bravado you mention, I have taken it principally as advertising. These younger arts remain in a growth phase. It can indeed be annoying at times though.

Arnisador, you make a very very good point hear within your posting. This is very troubling among not only other kenpo arts which have links to the american kenpo lineage, but as you mentioned other martial arts styles and their respective practitioner's as well. The more that i view kenpo mpegs, avi's and the like on the net. The more i see similarities between non AK or EPAK system's in their technique execution's and applications. I'am not trying here to degrade EPAK practitioners or their system. I'am just pointing out that their does seem to exist at times a high degree of egocentricism. There are several other kenpo systems among the other styles on this forum. The systems are also just as effective as any other kenpo style for the down and dirty violent confrontation. I observed several IKKA avi(s) last night and not much that i saw seemed as overly complexed, scientific, or overly street effective as any other system which emphasized street applications of their respective systems. There are just other ways of getting to the final outcome of victory. I do believe that there is a martial way of learning and through this way, all practitioner's of all styles (of altogether dissimilar theory, concept and methodologies); and different directions, converge upon the same path. The true Martial Way! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Matt Stone]

Can't comment on the other folks, and since NBCDecon is away from the PC for a few weeks, I thought I'd chime in on his behalf...

I have been training with NBCDecon for almost a year now. Sometimes (most times) he teaches me Modern Arnis, other times I teach him Yiliquan. Whatever. He has a huge passion for the grappling arts, and for him (from what I have seen in our training) the stick is just one of many ways to clock the bad guy solid in order to get in and wrap him up with his own guts...

He has also been doing a lot of research into western martial arts. Does any of this conflict with his Modern Arnis? Not hardly. So don't attempt to make a critique of a person based on where they post... My background is in CMA, but I post wherever I see an interesting thread...

originally posted by nbcdecon

The reason I am posting this is the other day I had another martial artist tell me that a certain skill is useless in a street fight. I raised my eyebrows in Disbelief and said you should find a place for this move like the garbage can.

It is important to place this into the correct context... This has been some time ago, but nbcdecon was in a discussion with someone about a certain technique, and the individual in question (if I remember correctly) made a rather uninformed comment about said technique, to which nbcdecon replied "then you should toss it in the garbage can." The individual (again, if memory serves properly) was debating more of a loyalty to style rather than a concern for practical, functional technique. Hence nbcdecon's comment.

Now.

I will say that I have observed that NHB types tend to be a tad more aggressive, personality-wise, than say your run of the mill Taiji player. I think it is safe to say that a person's natural bent will lead them to study an art consistent with their views.

From the experience I have had with such people, I don't think they are abusive or rude (though there are some bad apples) as a whole, just very much "cut to the chase" kind of people with little patience for fluffiness...

Just my unsolicited, devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

We all want to know that we are studying the best art there is. We want to know the answer to "is this right?" and "is this the best?"

That answer isn't found in hypothetical questions such as "can X beat Y".

On a good day, with a bit of luck a white belt can take out a black. The beginner may get that lucky shot in. So, does that invalidate all the training the black has done?

No. It just means someone else was better at that moment in time.

Simply put, study the art that works for you.

If I want to grapple, I'll do BJJ. Not Kenpo. Even though it may contain grappling, its not the primary focus.

If I want to kick, I'll go for Savate, not Arnis.

etc.

If I want to study a well rounded program that balances various things, and gives me a number of tools to use and explore, I'll check out the various systems like EPAK, and Modern Arnis, and TKD etc. And at a later date, I'll supliment it by cross training in a few other interesting systems. Yes Kenpo has stick work, but its not Escrima. Yes Modern Arnis has knife work, but I think the Petkita guys are a bit more intense.

I think those that get the "holier than thou" attitudes and "poo-poo" other arts are missing out on a lot of fun.

So, the answer to the question "which is best" is "whichever one you can master and use in a situation" plus a bit of luck.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

. . .
I think those that get the "holier than thou" attitudes and "poo-poo" other arts are missing out on a lot of fun.
. . . :asian:

Here! Here!

Good comment there. Missing out on the fun.

Rich

 

[karatekid1975]

Good post. And thanks, Arnis for the "simply put" thing Simple is better hehehehe