A Study on Distance Learning VS Dojo Learning

[marshallbd]

I wonder if anyone has done a difinitive study on the differences between using a video curriculum and dojo study.

Maybe one of you seniors out there could video tape the lessons to say orange belt and do a controlled study with say 10-20 people. Half would train using the video only and half would train with a qualified sifu/sensei. Both groups would devote the same amount of time per session/week and at the end of a realistic time frame (Say 3 months or so) all individuals would test in front of the instructor.

Using a format like that, what would the major differences be? Do you think that a study of this sort would prove that video training is more effective than the general consensus belives or would it prove the opposite. I am far from being qualified to instruct anyone in any form of a martial arts or I would do this study myself.:asian:

Even better would be to run the study for a full year and see which group is the more proficient Martial artists and why. Will one group be better in one area and not another? I for one would love to read about the results of such a study.....how about you?

 

[marshallbd]

Just to clarify, the people used in the study should all have no prior martial arts experience...

 

[Enson]

there was a study done in one of the black belt magazines. it was one of last years mags which was quite informative.
(i think this is what happened) they tested 3 people. 3 people that had no ma experience were put to the test. one of them went to go study under an instructor. the other 2 did video study. they both had like a week or two to study the techniques. then they tested all three. the moves were tested on the instructor who could not give any advise to the 2 video students. the results were the same. there was no apparent difference in the 3. they said that if it was a quality video course that actually took you through the steps you could learn the same as if you were in a dojo. in fact some might even do better because they wouldn't be held back by having to wait for the rest of the student to be ready to test. or have to wait to go train at the dojo. they did say that one who needs motivation from others should defentily look into a regular dojo.
they also made a good point saying that people used to war and fight for the secret scrolls of a certain style. (master's scrolls) now that we have media where you can see the moves. slow them down. email, call, even here the instructor speak to you one on one... not like a regular dojo were you might never train with the instructor till you are higher up in ranking.
i don't remember exactly which mag it was but maybe someone else remembers it. for the picture it had some guy in a blue gi watching a t.v. hitting a "bob".
this is what i remember of the article. i had never thought of video being effective till i read it.
peace
*note* this was posted on the other tread re: same topic. still don't remember what issue it was. like i said maybe someone else will know.

 

[marshallbd]

there was a study done in one of the black belt magazines. it was one of last years mags which was quite informative.
(i think this is what happened) they tested 3 people. 3 people that had no ma experience were put to the test. one of them went to go study under an instructor. the other 2 did video study. they both had like a week or two to study the techniques. then they tested all three. the moves were tested on the instructor who could not give any advise to the 2 video students. the results were the same. there was no apparent difference in the 3. they said that if it was a quality video course that actually took you through the steps you could learn the same as if you were in a dojo. in fact some might even do better because they wouldn't be held back by having to wait for the rest of the student to be ready to test. or have to wait to go train at the dojo. they did say that one who needs motivation from others should defentily look into a regular dojo.
they also made a good point saying that people used to war and fight for the secret scrolls of a certain style. (master's scrolls) now that we have media where you can see the moves. slow them down. email, call, even here the instructor speak to you one on one... not like a regular dojo were you might never train with the instructor till you are higher up in ranking.
i don't remember exactly which mag it was but maybe someone else remembers it. for the picture it had some guy in a blue gi watching a t.v. hitting a "bob".
this is what i remember of the article. i had never thought of video being effective till i read it.
peace
*note* this was posted on the other tread re: same topic. still don't remember what issue it was. like i said maybe someone else will know.

Yeah I posted it there after starting this thread here. Sorry about that....

I remember that study, but I was woondering if someone thought about a more intensive study with greater numbers of people who had to learn more than just the basic blocks punches and kicks. I would like to see the results of a study where the entire curriculum up to whatever belt level is included. (IE the forms and all techniques and other material required up to say Orange belt or even higher than that). And more time to learn it say 3-6 months... I think that would be more beneficial. Also I think that the instructor or panel of instructors performing the testing and grading of the individuals should not the instructor for the hands on students and should not be told who the in person peple or the video people were until after they have given the promotions or failed the persons on the tests and given thier critique. What do you think about that twist? :asian:

 

[Nightingale]

I'm not aware of any studies regarding learning martial arts in particular via distance methods (internet/correspondance/video), but the studies I have read regarding distance learning in general for my master's degree in education have indicated that distance learning is not as effective as classroom (or studio) learning, because there's little to no feedback/reinforcement on performance from the instructor, and no dialogue between the instructor and student to reinforce learning.

 

[marshallbd]

I'm not aware of any studies regarding learning martial arts in particular via distance methods (internet/correspondance/video), but the studies I have read regarding distance learning in general for my master's degree in education have indicated that distance learning is not as effective as classroom (or studio) learning, because there's little to no feedback/reinforcement on performance from the instructor, and no dialogue between the instructor and student to reinforce learning.

Yes I had the same thought on the subject initially, but now am not so sure. The purpose of this thread is to hopefully get one of the seniors out there to actually do this study with a more comprehensive group, in larger numbers, with more techniques (read:full curriculum), and test both groups via a panel that has no knowledge who had the hands on training and who had the video training. (the hands on instructor should not be part of the grading/testing panel). Then at the end of the testing, the panel should give comments and critique on each participants skill level before it is revealed to them who was a video student and who was an inhouse student. I really think it would be interesting to see the results and it would really help to put to rest the arguement one way or another about video testing. And if it proved to be effective then it would really open up new markets for all involved.

So seniors out there.....How about it? :asian:

 

[Enson]

I'm not aware of any studies regarding learning martial arts in particular via distance methods (internet/correspondance/video), but the studies I have read regarding distance learning in general for my master's degree in education have indicated that distance learning is not as effective as classroom (or studio) learning, because there's little to no feedback/reinforcement on performance from the instructor, and no dialogue between the instructor and student to reinforce learning.

i guess that would be true if you didn't have to video test or had no way of contacting the instructors. what if they did have video testing and what if they had continueous communication with the school? just some thoughts.

 

[marshallbd]

i guess that would be true if you didn't have to video test or had no way of contacting the instructors. what if they did have video testing and what if they had continueous communication with the school? just some thoughts.

I agree....I am only talking about courses that offer some sort of testing at each level

 

[Aegis]

After 2 weeks how many people have actually learned enough of anything practical to take a test? Unless you're training full time, 2 weeks is nothing.

In addition, which instructors were selected to be the judges? The ones with home study courses, or the ones who teach in a dojo? In other words was it impartial.

All in all, this concludes nothing.

 

[terryl965]

well my humble opion is video is nice to keep replaying it over and over, but for the majority they need feedback, they need actual student to do the techniques on. Guide is needed for the MAers just beginning, why if you can learn from videos do you not think boxers would use this approach insted of paying top dollar for instruction, same with any sport feedback is necesary for one to grow in that sport....GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Shogun]

The article was in sept. 2003 of black belt (subscriber). I have some distance courses, and I dont think it is really effective unless you also train in a Dojo. if you do both though, I think you have the edge. IMO.

I was actually going to do a reveiw on some distnace courses, but I gotta get my info. if anyone else has some exp. on this (has done them) please post feedback.

 

[Shogun]

Here is my reveiw on HSC I have done, doing, or have known people that have done them.

To-Shin do By SK Hayes
SKH is the first american to study under Hatsumi Soke. He is world renowned for his work. He holds a 10th+ Dan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
pros:
-Instructor is Steven K. Hayes, black belt hall of famer, first american to recieve instruction under GM Masaaki Hatsumi.
-Many courses, and DVD's available, with different levels of instruction.
-Highest quality video around
-frequently has seminars
-video testing required and feedback added to improve your skills.
-Modern and classical Taijutsu available
cons:
-Testing can become costly
-Toshindoka are not welcome to train with Bujinkan budoka
-Seminars not available in all areas

Tushka-Homa and American Kenpo By Adrian Roman
Adrian Roman is a full blooded Choctaw. He has taken real Native american techniques, and synthesized them with recreated techniques. He is recognized founder of Tushkahoma, the red warrior system. He is also ranked under SGM Ed Parker as an 8th Dan in American Kenpo.
Pros:
-High quality video
-Personally responds to all calls and emails.
-Roman is 8th grade BB under SGM Ed Parker
-Native american arts offered
-extended rank courses available
-feedback and customer service 24 hours a day
cons:
-Video testing not required (although available)
-rank Certificate with order (more of an insurance policy, but still.....)
-Costly ($800-$1000 for first course, additional courses $2000)

AMJ systems By Israel Velez and Michael Carmiche
AMJ instructors (see above) are ranked Yondan in TJD Kempo, Nidan in Yoshin ryu Jujutsu, Shodan in Shotokan, Pressure points, and Kickboxing.
Pros:
-Mr. Velez and Mr. Carmiche are ranked in 5 different MA
-personally respond quickly to any calls or emails
-Inexpensive ($100-$150 for entire course)
-additional rank courses available for $50 after 6 months of current rank
-Updated videos (its an open MA) available every couple months for $25
-feedback and video testing is free, and can be done at any time
-Train at their main Dojo for free.
-recognized by orgs in England, australia, Africa, canada, etc
-many course available (Jujutsu, Karate, Weapons, pressure points, etc)
cons:
-video testing not required
-not recognized by all Organizations.
-Affiliated with AFJ (known by some as a black belt factory)
-video quality not as good as the other courses.


Will post more

cheers,
KE

 

[grappling_mandala]

As marshal McCluhan would say "The medium is the message"

There is no replacment for someone who can replicate kinesthetic experience right in front of you.

The idea that three identical people could learn something the same between video and instructor is bogus. True martial art doesn't happen in an A B C.

Test 3 people and give them 1 hour to learn how to defend themselves against an attacker who is on top of them. I would rather have the 1 hour training experience of having someone on top of me, vs. 1 hour of video instruction. Alive training is superior to video instuction hands down.

Used in conbination with alive training, videos are a good deal, but the idea that video could ever compete with person to person training is like saying it's easier to learn the guitar from a book then a friend showing you cords.

Blackbelt magazine has an 'interest' in making it appear that videos could ever compete with aliveness.

Dave

 

[Mark Weiser]

The best combination is to use Videos as a study guide to practice at home and then train with a real person as the Instructor. The Instructor and Video should be the same format and martial art.

The IKCA is a good example of this they have set forms and techs for each belt level and drills to enhance the training. By using the videos along with an IKCA Instructor you progress better and faster in the art.

 

[Gentle Fist]

I like having videos as a refrence, but to learn new material just seems to be lacking something.

 

[Shogun]

Video shouldn't replace live training. However, like I stated, it makes a very good refresher. I mean, in class your instructor demonstrates a technique, and then you follow that technique. Then you go home, and watch that technique ( or a similar one) on your TV. Does anyone else have any experience with home study/long distance programs? if so, please write in what you did, and the pros and cons of it.

Later days,
KE

 

[Mark Weiser]

I study with the IKCA Series both via video and with a live instructor. I have learned much from both.

I see the tech in action and practice in the dojo and then go home and pop in the video for that belt level and fine tune myself and come back to class later much better prepared for the class.

I endorse using both video and live instructor.

 

[Shogun]

What are the pros and cons of it?

I was interested in the IKCA videos a while back. I dont practice Kempo/kenpo locally though, so I decided against it.

Regards,
Shogun

 

[shiro]

I think If You can not get to a real dojo in whatever style You want Long distance is fine That way when You can get to someone You can move more easily through the basics. And get more training in the short time You have to be there.
Good Day

 

[Shogun]

I think If You can not get to a real dojo in whatever style You want Long distance is fine That way when You can get to someone You can move more easily through the basics. And get more training in the short time You have to be there.
Good Day

Yes. true. If you dont have access to a Dojo, then home courses are a good way to go. As the saying goes, "any training is better than no training". It cant replace Dojo training, but someone could advance much faster, or even through, the use of videos and/or manuals.