Thoughts on Learning from Videos

[SPX]

I actually did hear about the online MMA ref thing a few days ago. And no, I certainly would not want a ref who had been certified on the Internet to be officiating one of MY fights. So I get your point, but I also think it's a little different. I would put that in the same category--maybe not on the same level, but same category--as a doctor getting licensed to practice from an online course.

But I don't see learning a martial art that way. I would see learning something like karate or BJJ via videos or a correspondence course or whatever as being more along the lines of someone learning to play guitar from a video.

I mean, if there was a band that you liked and you found out that the guitarist was self-taught, would that somehow invalidate his music because he didn't have a teacher to help him with his hand placement or chord progression?

BTW, consider this statement regarding Evan Tanner:

"If you notice, all of Tanner's early fights look almost exactly the same: close the distance, knee from the clinch, get a takedown, achieve dominant position, secure a submission. It's all very rudimentary and textbook in 2008, but 10 years ago Tanner's style, cobbled together from instructional videos, gave him a massive leg-up on the competition." (Source: http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Linking-Evan-Tanner-14383.)

The extent of Tanner's martial arts training before he started fighting was some high school wrestling experience that ended 6 years prior to his first professional fight. Before he died, he often talked about how he taught himself submission grappling using Gracie BJJ videos, and he didn't receive any professional instruction until several fights into his pro career.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

BTW, where can you find the old Black Belt archives? On the BB site?

They are all right here (1962 to 2004), thanks to Google scanning them and Black Belt magazine making them available for free.

http://books.google.com/books/serial/ISSN:02773066?rview=0

 

[SPX]

Awesome, thanks!

 

[dancingalone]

Not too interested in rehashing this extensively as I've discussed it a few times before.

Summary:
The video instructional courses out there are uniformly terrible. It's no wonder that many criticize video learning. On the other hand as a former management consultant who has worked on semiconductor industry training media, I do believe a great deal of physical training taught through CBT/or other means is viable, given an intelligent design geared towards achievable outcomes. IMO, this type of thoughtful construction just hasn't been attempted before in the martial arts world. MA instructional videos usually just have some guy regurgitating material with no direction or targeting towards things that could be readily achieved with video instruction. No reinforcing checklist of key points, no attempt to teach using all the senses, etc...

Addressing SPX's comments about learning a 'simple' art through video... I don't know if it is possible to teach TKD entirely by video. I do think learning stand alone techniques such as a front stance or a roundhouse kick is definitely achievable, so long as there is live correction available with a qualified teacher. This is where I separate from most of the opinions here on MT - yes, I think even complete newbies can get something out of a video so long as they have an actual teacher as well.

 

[Tez3]

I actually did hear about the online MMA ref thing a few days ago. And no, I certainly would not want a ref who had been certified on the Internet to be officiating one of MY fights. So I get your point, but I also think it's a little different. I would put that in the same category--maybe not on the same level, but same category--as a doctor getting licensed to practice from an online course.

But I don't see learning a martial art that way. I would see learning something like karate or BJJ via videos or a correspondence course or whatever as being more along the lines of someone learning to play guitar from a video.

I mean, if there was a band that you liked and you found out that the guitarist was self-taught, would that somehow invalidate his music because he didn't have a teacher to help him with his hand placement or chord progression?

BTW, consider this statement regarding Evan Tanner:

"If you notice, all of Tanner's early fights look almost exactly the same: close the distance, knee from the clinch, get a takedown, achieve dominant position, secure a submission. It's all very rudimentary and textbook in 2008, but 10 years ago Tanner's style, cobbled together from instructional videos, gave him a massive leg-up on the competition." (Source: http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Linking-Evan-Tanner-14383.)

The extent of Tanner's martial arts training before he started fighting was some high school wrestling experience that ended 6 years prior to his first professional fight. Before he died, he often talked about how he taught himself submission grappling using Gracie BJJ videos, and he didn't receive any professional instruction until several fights into his pro career.

The thing is though..guitars don't hit, kick, bite, or generally beat you up. It's an inanimate object so you can quite easily learn to play it from a book or video, learning to defend yourself or fight isn't quite the same. If you play badly, people won't listen to you or buy your CDs, no harm done other than prhaps to your pride. someone attacks you and you only have online moves to go by, you are going to be in trouble. When our instructor shows us a SD move, for example and to be simplistic, a straight punch, he will show us the different ways it can come at you, from either hand, from behind, the side etc, he will show us how to defend from all angles, a video isn't go to do this, there isn't the time on a video, it can't actually throw that punch at you to see if you can defend against it, it won't correct you or perhaps importantly show you an alternative way to deal with it. One thing I've always found is that your defence can be dependant on your size, strength, height etc but the video is one size fits all. My instructor will show the men how to do something then say to me, try it this way, it'll be easier for you. It's that depth that's missing from videos.

Ten years ago in MMA people were still trying it for size, still learning so someone with a wrestling background...it doesn't go away it's like riding a bike...can teach himself moves to fight and get away with it, there's very little chance of that happening. If teaching yourself was good, Tanner wouldn't have needed any more instruction other than more videos.

 

[SPX]

Well as I mentioned regarding Evan Tanner, it's been proven that someone can pick up a new skill and then use it in a competitive arena. Unless you need some proof other than someone actually doing it.

As for front stance or a roundhouse kick, that should be no problem learning from a video. These types of techniques are not mystical or overly complex. In fact, the mechanics are quite easily taught. I could teach someone to assume a front stance or do a front kick or do a reverse punch or do a roundhouse or whatever else in about 5 minutes at the most. It may take some practice to really get it down and learn to put some power behind it, but the movement is quite simple and I don't see why a video couldn't teach it. Just demonstrate the technique in various speeds, explain any technical details (ex. feet 1.5 shoulder width's apart, or rear foot at a 45 degree angle, or raise knee slightly above waist level while curling back toes and then snap the kick out and strike with the ball of the foot, etc.), and shoot a demonstration from the front, the back, the rear, both sides, top down, and close ups on relevant subjects. As long as the student has some degree of physical aptitude then I think learning something like a roundhouse should be quite simple and easily achievable even without an instructor. It's not rocket science.

 

[SPX]

The thing is though..guitars don't hit, kick, bite, or generally beat you up. It's an inanimate object so you can quite easily learn to play it from a book or video, learning to defend yourself or fight isn't quite the same. If you play badly, people won't listen to you or buy your CDs, no harm done other than prhaps to your pride. someone attacks you and you only have online moves to go by, you are going to be in trouble. When our instructor shows us a SD move, for example and to be simplistic, a straight punch, he will show us the different ways it can come at you, from either hand, from behind, the side etc, he will show us how to defend from all angles, a video isn't go to do this, there isn't the time on a video, it can't actually throw that punch at you to see if you can defend against it, it won't correct you or perhaps importantly show you an alternative way to deal with it. One thing I've always found is that your defence can be dependant on your size, strength, height etc but the video is one size fits all. My instructor will show the men how to do something then say to me, try it this way, it'll be easier for you. It's that depth that's missing from videos.

Ten years ago in MMA people were still trying it for size, still learning so someone with a wrestling background...it doesn't go away it's like riding a bike...can teach himself moves to fight and get away with it, there's very little chance of that happening. If teaching yourself was good, Tanner wouldn't have needed any more instruction other than more videos.

You see, I never said it wasn't BETTER--perhaps even MUCH better--to learn with a live instructor. I merely said that it's possible to learn useful skills and that someone who has intelligently trained with videos will be better prepared for a self-defense situation than someone who has done nothing at all, provided he or she has had resisting training partners to go through a trial-and-error process with.

As for Tanner, I agree that his wrestling background helped a lot, but the important point is that his entire submission game--which is how he picked up his first 7 wins--was learned from videos. Of course later on, as he began to face more skilled opponents he had to get with a legitimate camp and up his game. I certainly said no one could become champ just by video learning. I just said they can acquire legitimate skills.

Also, just because one thing is better, doesn't mean that something else is not good. There can be good, better and best . . . not just best while everything else sucks.

 

[Tez3]

Well as I mentioned regarding Evan Tanner, it's been proven that someone can pick up a new skill and then use it in a competitive arena. Unless you need some proof other than someone actually doing it.

As for front stance or a roundhouse kick, that should be no problem learning from a video. These types of techniques are not mystical or overly complex. In fact, the mechanics are quite easily taught. I could teach someone to assume a front stance or do a front kick or do a reverse punch or do a roundhouse or whatever else in about 5 minutes at the most. It may take some practice to really get it down and learn to put some power behind it, but the movement is quite simple and I don't see why a video couldn't teach it. Just demonstrate the technique in various speeds, explain any technical details (ex. feet 1.5 shoulder width's apart, or rear foot at a 45 degree angle, or raise knee slightly above waist level while curling back toes and then snap the kick out and strike with the ball of the foot, etc.), and shoot a demonstration from the front, the back, the rear, both sides, top down, and close ups on relevant subjects. As long as the student has some degree of physical aptitude then I think learning something like a roundhouse should be quite simple and easily achievable even without an instructor. It's not rocket science.

Have you learnt to do a roundhouse kick from a video? If so post up a video of you doing it.

I'm sorry but I'm smiling at the thought of someone teaching themselves to do an effective roundhouse kick. I'm sure what they did would look like a roundhouse but does it work, a lot of places btw don't teach you to do it with the ball of the foot until they've mastered doing it with the instep. How do you make sure you turn the non kicking foot properly or your hip is correct, you can do yourself a mischief learning to do it incorrectly.No one is saying it's mystical but like most things it needs to be taught properly, that's what an instructor is for. It take a while to learn how to do it properly and effectively with an instructor so theres no saying how long it would take you to teach yourself.

 

[SPX]

Have you learnt to do a roundhouse kick from a video? If so post up a video of you doing it.

Not a roundhouse, but I learned how to do a rear-naked choke literally just by watching MMA and practicing on unsuspecting friends, lol. And I don't even mean watching instructional videos that break it down step-by-step . . . I just mean by watching fights and seeing it applied over and over and over. When I went into judo I can honestly say that my instructor didn't really teach me much about how to do that technique. I already had it down pretty well.

I'm sorry but I'm smiling at the thought of someone teaching themselves to do an effective roundhouse kick. I'm sure what they did would look like a roundhouse but does it work, a lot of places btw don't teach you to do it with the ball of the foot until they've mastered doing it with the instep. How do you make sure you turn the non kicking foot properly or your hip is correct, you can do yourself a mischief learning to do it incorrectly.No one is saying it's mystical but like most things it needs to be taught properly, that's what an instructor is for. It take a while to learn how to do it properly and effectively with an instructor so theres no saying how long it would take you to teach yourself.

As for the instep, I've heard that Kukki TKD is that way, but I was never taught that. However, I don't have a lot of doubt that I could pick up an Olympic TKD instructional video and figure out how to do it that way.

But an instructor teaches a technique via words and demonstration . . . it's not like he can jump into your body and do it for you. He can explain it. He can show it. But YOU have follow his example and do it. And I think that a good, experienced instructor will be able to explain on a video just like he could in person, AND THEN address the common pitfalls or errors that he has seen beginners make through his his extensive teaching career. I feel like that should be enough for 70% of people to figure it out. Maybe there will still be 3 in 10 who can't get it right.

 

[Tez3]

Not a roundhouse, but I learned how to do a rear-naked choke literally just by watching MMA and practicing on unsuspecting friends, lol. And I don't even mean watching instructional videos that break it down step-by-step . . . I just mean by watching fights and seeing it applied over and over and over. When I went into judo I can honestly say that my instructor didn't really teach me much about how to do that technique. I already had it down pretty well.



As for the instep, I've heard that Kukki TKD is that way, but I was never taught that. However, I don't have a lot of doubt that I could pick up an Olympic TKD instructional video and figure out how to do it that way.

But an instructor teaches a technique via words and demonstration . . . it's not like he can jump into your body and do it for you. He can explain it. He can show it. But YOU have follow his example and do it. And I think that a good, experienced instructor will be able to explain on a video just like he could in person, AND THEN address the common pitfalls or errors that he has seen beginners make through his his extensive teaching career. I feel like that should be enough for 70% of people to figure it out. Maybe there will still be 3 in 10 who can't get it right.

When you learnt the RNC did you also learn the escapes from it? that's what an instructor does, teaches you the moves and teaches the escapes too. I think however if you are going to go against what experienced, over many, many years instructors are saying there's probably no point in continuing. You remain convinced you can teach yourself from a video, all I'll do is wish you luck and I won't even say I told you so when it goes awry.

 

[dancingalone]

Have you learnt to do a roundhouse kick from a video? If so post up a video of you doing it.

Don't have a video but a former student of mine taught himself a RH kick using a Sang Kim DVD. (I've mentioned this before on MT and that's why I used it as an example of what I think is possible through video training.) He was a complete newbie to the martial arts. The only key correction I had to make was to tell him to follow through on the kick rather than stopping the motion upon impact.

Some have said that this is a rather big correction to have to make. And it is, but I'm more interested in what he was able to learn entirely by himself on his own initiative using a rather poor source of information (sorry, Mr. Sang Kim) at that. Now was he an instant expert? Of course not. It takes lots of refinement to be able to perform even a single kick well. Nonetheless, I think it's good anecdotal evidence that even beginners can benefit from informational sources other than a live teacher.

I do concur with the idea that videos should be used in addition to having a teacher not in lieu of one.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not to belittle guitar skills, but...

If you teach yourself to play guitar, you may learn to play with some degree of proficiency. And some may achieve mastery. But guitar, especially electric rock guitar, is definitely in the realm of 'if it sounds good, it is good'. Doesn't matter where you learned your licks, if they sound right, people like them. On the other hand, if you learn from a tutor or instructor and learn to read music, how to play this or that style effectively, you may find that you learn more quickly and can be more flexible in your future playing.

On the other hand, you can have a perfectly nice-looking kick that just isn't effective. Body mechanics is so much more than just the appearance of the kick itself, it's hard to describe; but anyone who has been shown how to deliver a kick properly knows what I mean. One kick looks a lot like another in some sense, and everyone does have to learn the basics of the kick itself. But that's just the surface.

"But my kick looks just like his!" I've heard that many times in my dojo from frustrated beginners comparing their kick to their instructor's kick. First, no it doesn't, and second, if it was identical, if the body mechanics are not there, it's not a good kick, even if it looks pretty. It will get you hurt in actual self-defense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But an instructor teaches a technique via words and demonstration . . . it's not like he can jump into your body and do it for you. He can explain it. He can show it. But YOU have follow his example and do it. And I think that a good, experienced instructor will be able to explain on a video just like he could in person, AND THEN address the common pitfalls or errors that he has seen beginners make through his his extensive teaching career. I feel like that should be enough for 70% of people to figure it out. Maybe there will still be 3 in 10 who can't get it right.

See, I think we have a basic disagreement there. A good instructor will do more than show you and ask you to repeat what he did. He will physically demonstrate by moving your hand or arm or leg or whatever into position, he will apply the technique you're defending against and you'll see very clearly what he means.

I see it in the dojo all the time.

Do this!

Like this?

No, like this!

Like this?

No, point your toes up!

Like this?

Yes, but don't lean back!

Like this?

Yes, but keep your guard up, don't flail your arms!

Like this?

Yes, but now your toes are down again.

Like this?

Urgh. Let me show you. (grabs karateka and adjusts) LIKE THIS!

OH! I get it now!

Good, keep doing it.

And five minutes later...

Your toes are down again!

Oops, sorry!

And that's just scratching the surface. I can't tell you how many times I was sure I was doing it just like sensei until he physically moved my arms through the motion and I 'got it'. Then every time I drifted away from it, he'd correct me again, and that happens over and over.

 

[SPX]

When you learnt the RNC did you also learn the escapes from it? that's what an instructor does, teaches you the moves and teaches the escapes too.

Nope. But I'm sure it would be possible.

I think however if you are going to go against what experienced, over many, many years instructors are saying there's probably no point in continuing. You remain convinced you can teach yourself from a video, all I'll do is wish you luck and I won't even say I told you so when it goes awry.

I'm sure you could learn new skills from a video, too.

 

[SPX]

Not to belittle guitar skills, but...

If you teach yourself to play guitar, you may learn to play with some degree of proficiency. And some may achieve mastery. But guitar, especially electric rock guitar, is definitely in the realm of 'if it sounds good, it is good'. Doesn't matter where you learned your licks, if they sound right, people like them. On the other hand, if you learn from a tutor or instructor and learn to read music, how to play this or that style effectively, you may find that you learn more quickly and can be more flexible in your future playing.

I'm sure that's true. And you're right, "If it sounds good, it IS good," though I know of some very technical self-taught guitarists (like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth).

I would argue that a fighting technique is the same way. It's entirely possible for someone to have a punch or a kick that is "bad form" but still effective, though once it's been proven to be effective it's no longer called bad form . . . it's called unorthodox.

On the other hand, you can have a perfectly nice-looking kick that just isn't effective. Body mechanics is so much more than just the appearance of the kick itself, it's hard to describe; but anyone who has been shown how to deliver a kick properly knows what I mean. One kick looks a lot like another in some sense, and everyone does have to learn the basics of the kick itself. But that's just the surface.

"But my kick looks just like his!" I've heard that many times in my dojo from frustrated beginners comparing their kick to their instructor's kick. First, no it doesn't, and second, if it was identical, if the body mechanics are not there, it's not a good kick, even if it looks pretty. It will get you hurt in actual self-defense.

Well I would say that there are definitely stages to learning any striking technique.

First, you learn the mechanics of it, and how to throw it smoothly in the air. Then you start to strike objects, like a heavy bag or makiwara. Then you learn how to apply it against a resisting opponent.

By the time you get to the latter, you're not really learning "the kick" anymore . . . you know the kick. If you can kick the hell out of a heavy bag then you know the kick. Learning how to apply it is really about taking that kick and applying it while dealing with things like footwork, range, timing, defense, etc. This last stage is the reason why I said you would need good training partners and, preferably, opportunities for competition.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a long distance study group, they have video of me going over the basics and running various seminars, and they still manage to screw things up. The video reference isn't fixing things, I fix things when I am there, they think they are doing the right thing, but sometimes they aren't. And this isn't new information, they only have vids of stuff that I have already taught them. So even though they have the reference, they don't necessarily understand when and why they are getting it wrong.

That's the thing. People screw it up, and they do not realize it. They mimick, but they do not learn and do not really understand it.

 

[SPX]

See, I think we have a basic disagreement there. A good instructor will do more than show you and ask you to repeat what he did. He will physically demonstrate by moving your hand or arm or leg or whatever into position, he will apply the technique you're defending against and you'll see very clearly what he means.

Maybe the disagreement really lies in this:

I think there's more than one way to skin a cat. For one, as has been stated before, often times even instructors themselves will vary a bit in how they do a technique or how they do a kata/form. Some vary more than others. So does that mean that only one is an effective fighter and no others are?

I have personally been taught different ways to do the same technique from different instructors within the same style.

"Do it like THIS!"

"Oh, but Mr. Jones said to do. . ."

"No, no, no! Do it this way."

*go back to train later with Mr. Jones*

"Why are you doing that like that? That's now how I showed you. . ."

 

[Tez3]

Nope. But I'm sure it would be possible.



I'm sure you could learn new skills from a video, too.

If you are going to learn the escapes for example from fight videos you hare constrained by many things. You will only be able to learn what's is in that particular fight, so you can do it is your opponent does it exactly the same as the fighter you were watching, it may not work against your opponent and the escape you need might not have been used in a fight you've watched. It's a very hit or miss way of learning. No one is arguing that videos aren't a usefel help but to say you can become a good martial artist able to fight and defend yourself is going a bit far.

You know, I suspect you are winding people up here with your assertions that it's easy to learn from videos, if you aren't have you considered it's rather insulting to instructors saying they aren't necessary when so many put blood, sweat, love and tears into what they are doing?

 

[Flying Crane]

Not a roundhouse, but I learned how to do a rear-naked choke literally just by watching MMA and practicing on unsuspecting friends, lol. And I don't even mean watching instructional videos that break it down step-by-step . . . I just mean by watching fights and seeing it applied over and over and over.

OK, let's all agree that human beings are largely visual creatures. We rely on sight, and we learn thru watching and mimicing and then trying things out. Chimpanzees do this too, that's how they learn to use a twig to fish for ants: they see another Chimpanzee do it and then they try it. Not everything in life requires a formal instructor to figure out. Simply seeing someone do something can sometimes be enough to get the hang of it.

However, without good instruction you cannot learn good martial arts. Not on a level of really understanding what you are doing systematically. You may be able to pick up a few techniques, and even figure out how to use them in a rudimentary way. That doesn't mean you have learned a martial art, or that you are doing those few techniques at a high level. With a lot of this stuff, it can still be effective at a low level, but good training will teach you how to optimize.

Hey, if you want to believe that video is a viable way to learn martial stuff, go ahead. With the concessions that I've made, sure you can pick up a few things. But as far as really learning martial arts, no you cannot do so, not on anything beyond an unstructured, rudimentary level.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe the disagreement really lies in this:

I think there's more than one way to skin a cat. For one, as has been stated before, often times even instructors themselves will vary a bit in how they do a technique or how they do a kata/form. Some vary more than others. So does that mean that only one is an effective fighter and no others are?

I have personally been taught different ways to do the same technique from different instructors within the same style.

"Do it like THIS!"

"Oh, but Mr. Jones said to do. . ."

"No, no, no! Do it this way."

*go back to train later with Mr. Jones*

"Why are you doing that like that? That's now how I showed you. . ."

Here's the difference, and put it down to satori. When Mr. Jones shows me, he applies the technique I'm defending against (for example) and if I do it the way he showed me, I'm good. And it feels good, it feels right. If I apply it a millimeter different, he crashes through my defense and I hurt a lot. We can argue about one instructor versus another, but when you've been shown the 'right way' and you know it down to your bones, the argument is over. But you can't explain that until it happens to you, then you just 'get it'.

The first time sensei came at me with a strong overhand punch and I put up my block correctly, I felt the power flowing down my body and exiting into the floor. Call it chi or body mechanics or whatever, I felt it. And I took his nearly full-force blow and didn't even twitch. No muscle required, just technique. And when I got it wrong, he hurt my head or I hurt it myself from my arm flying into my face. The difference was minuscule in my technique. Very subtle stuff.

Now, if Mr. Smith wants to say "No, do it this way," then Mr. Smith is going to have to show me that his way works also, or I'm not going to do it. I know now what a good upper body block feels like. There are 10,000 ways to do it wrong and one way to do it right. I can't explain. But everyone reading this who has felt it is nodding their head along with me right now. Even if they practice a different style or use different mechanics to get the result, they know the difference between right and wrong is like night and day when you experience it. That 'aha' moment when you get it right can't be replaced by anything, I think.