Thoughts on Learning from Videos

[SPX]

I've seen a lot of negative comments toward the idea of learning a martial art from DVDs as well as anyone who learns from DVDs and then teaches. But to be honest, I think they are not always warranted.

I actually think that as long as someone has good training partners and the opportunities for competition that someone could reach black belt level in many martial arts and, in fact, could easily be better than many black belts who come from average schools.

The argument seems to always be that something like a DVD could never provide the sort of fine tuning that an instructor could, and of course that is true. But it's also true that often times martial arts are learned in a group setting, often with 40 or more people to a class that has only one head instructor and one assistant instructor, and one-on-one attention is somewhat rare. Far more often than not, when the student DOES get personal attention, it's just a brief, cursory glance.

However, I think that an experienced teacher could put together a good video that could very meticulously lay out how things are supposed to be done. (Feet should be shoulder width apart, the rear foot should be at 45 degrees, hand should be at the hip, etc. with a total visual representation as the teacher demonstrates the techniques, stances, etc from multiple angles.)

Techniques, forms, power theory, sparring strategies, etc could all be taught and I feel that if a dedicated student has fellow students to learn with and pressure test everything, and has access to competitions in which he could try his skills in a live environment, then he or she could certainly become a competent martial artist. There may be a bit of trial and error, but it could certainly be done.

Now before the question gets raised, no, I have never gone through a video course where I video test to attain rank. But I have learned some cool stuff from videos and learned it well enough to do it on resisting opponents. I also had a friend not too long ago who was learning To-Shin Do through Stephen Hayes's videos and, to be honest, it totally changed the way that I looked at ninjutsu as a martial art. This guy demonstrated some stuff on me that I thought was actually pretty practical and could be used to satisfying effect in a self-defense situation.

Of course I recognize that a lot of people could--and no doubt have--spent thousands of dollars on self-study materials and still be terrible at doing any sort of martial arts. But I guess what I'm arguing here is that that's not the inevitable result and that if someone says "I learned X martial art from videos" then maybe they shouldn't be immediately discredited.

Thoughts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well, first of all, this topic comes up a lot. I think the basic consensus is that video training can be useful as an adjunct, and it's better than nothing (assuming NOTHING else in the way of in-person instruction is available).

Second, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I think part of the reason there is a lot of animosity against video training is because some of us are fortunate enough not to have experienced in-person training that suffers from the drawbacks you describe. Speaking only for myself, I cannot imagine anything that could take the place, or even come close, to the feedback I get from my senseis at my dojo. It's invaluable, it's irreplaceable. I sometimes wonder what kind of training other people get that they don't get that kind of feedback.

That said, I can tell you I have referred to videos and books to help me practice my kata when I'm not in the dojo. If I forget what comes next when learning a new kata, and I'm not in the dojo and can't ask, YouTube is my friend.

But in all honesty, I can't see video training as being useful at all as a replacement for in-person training.

 

[MJS]

I've seen a lot of negative comments toward the idea of learning a martial art from DVDs as well as anyone who learns from DVDs and then teaches. But to be honest, I think they are not always warranted.

I actually think that as long as someone has good training partners and the opportunities for competition that someone could reach black belt level in many martial arts and, in fact, could easily be better than many black belts who come from average schools.

The argument seems to always be that something like a DVD could never provide the sort of fine tuning that an instructor could, and of course that is true. But it's also true that often times martial arts are learned in a group setting, often with 40 or more people to a class that has only one head instructor and one assistant instructor, and one-on-one attention is somewhat rare. Far more often than not, when the student DOES get personal attention, it's just a brief, cursory glance.

However, I think that an experienced teacher could put together a good video that could very meticulously lay out how things are supposed to be done. (Feet should be shoulder width apart, the rear foot should be at 45 degrees, hand should be at the hip, etc. with a total visual representation as the teacher demonstrates the techniques, stances, etc from multiple angles.)

Techniques, forms, power theory, sparring strategies, etc could all be taught and I feel that if a dedicated student has fellow students to learn with and pressure test everything, and has access to competitions in which he could try his skills in a live environment, then he or she could certainly become a competent martial artist. There may be a bit of trial and error, but it could certainly be done.

Now before the question gets raised, no, I have never gone through a video course where I video test to attain rank. But I have learned some cool stuff from videos and learned it well enough to do it on resisting opponents. I also had a friend not too long ago who was learning To-Shin Do through Stephen Hayes's videos and, to be honest, it totally changed the way that I looked at ninjutsu as a martial art. This guy demonstrated some stuff on me that I thought was actually pretty practical and could be used to satisfying effect in a self-defense situation.

Of course I recognize that a lot of people could--and no doubt have--spent thousands of dollars on self-study materials and still be terrible at doing any sort of martial arts. But I guess what I'm arguing here is that that's not the inevitable result and that if someone says "I learned X martial art from videos" then maybe they shouldn't be immediately discredited.

Thoughts?

Experienced teachers already have put out quality videos. While they do give alot of detail, if someone who has no background in the art whatsoever, is watching this, its going to be hard for them to figure things out and even if they do, theres a strong chance it still wont be 100%. IMO, if I'm going to spend the time and money to train in an art, then I want to make damn sure that I'm doing everything right and to the best of my ability. Learning from a dvd isn't going to get me there.

As I've always said, they're a great reference tool. I have a few instructional dvds, but I use them to reference. I've watched tapes of GM Remy Presas (Modern Arnis) and have jotted down questions, and brought them to my teacher, and worked on them. Things such as differences or things that caught my eye, that GM Presas did, so I'd ask my teacher about them, and we'd work the stuff.

So, in the end, it all comes down to what the student wants to get out of their training. I know many times people want to train in an art, but that art isn't available in their area. So it comes down to the following: 1) accepting the fact that they wont be able to train in that art, 2) move to an area where that art is, 3) head to the school and take 1 or 2 days, and do privates, record them, to have as a reference, then head back home and train what you worked until you can go back.

As I've said about this topic many, many, many times....its possible to mimic and try to perform to the best of your ability, but if you really want to learn something, you need a teacher.

 

[Carol]

That said, I can tell you I have referred to videos and books to help me practice my kata when I'm not in the dojo. If I forget what comes next when learning a new kata, and I'm not in the dojo and can't ask, YouTube is my friend.

But in all honesty, I can't see video training as being useful at all as a replacement for in-person training.

This is why video makes such a good supplement. In fact, its high value as a supplement IMO gets lost in the hurrdurr over video as a primary method of training.

Personally I have experienced exactly that when I was training regularly. Now that I'm getting things together to start over (again), I really wish I had a video of some of the key matters my instructor was showing me...especially the moves that I know I would get confused!

Another aspect, I think a well done video may also aid the student in forming constructive questions for their teacher. It can help bridge the gap between "I don't get it" and "I don't understand why we move the right leg this way while the left arm is doing (fill in the blank).

I could not rely heavily on video training, certainly not as a primary source. I'm a kinaesthetic, someone needs to push and twist me in to position so my muscles can feel how it is supposed go...then I stand a chance on learning it. Videos as an adjunct though -- very valuable tool.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I've said about this topic many, many, many times....its possible to mimic and try to perform to the best of your ability, but if you really want to learn something, you need a teacher.

I think I've mentioned this as an example before, but I'll trot it out again. In our style, we have an upper-body block that has to be applied a certain way to be really effective. And you can write it down, make a video of it, take still photos, and practice, practice, practice, and not get it right. When practicing it in the dojo, sensei comes over and whacks you, and you bounce your own hand off your punkin' noggin. Then he adjusts your position by a couple millimeters and suddenly you can take a massive blow without moving at all; the energy flows right down your body and into the floor; you can *feel* it.

I am no martial arts expert, just a student. But I refuse to believe you can learn that from anything other than personal instruction. There just is no substitute. You can learn the basic movement, you can practice it with a partner, you can become proficient with the 'movement'. But without that adjustment, you are getting 10% of the value of the block.

I could see a person learning the same upper-body block I do from a video, and saying "Look, I know this block, see?" And it would look good, be smooth, position looks good, everything. But can it block a blow? You don't know that until you do it right and you just KNOW that it's right. And that doesn't come accidentally by trial and error, IMHO.

Lots of things, if they look good, they are good. And lots of things don't.

I don't know. I don't want to come of as an elitist; I'm frankly not qualified to be one anyway, ignorant as I am. But there are times when I think 90% of all martial arts instruction must be pure crap, that people who have had personal training think it can be substituted for by videos or books. I have trouble wrapping my mind around the notion that a person who got the kind of training I get could even think that. I do think I am extraordinarily fortunate to be training in my dojo; the training just doesn't leave any room for question as to what's superior. I hope no one takes that as an attack; I'm looking for a polite way to express my opinion based on what little experience I have.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I could not rely heavily on video training, certainly not as a primary source. I'm a kinaesthetic, someone needs to push and twist me in to position so my muscles can feel how it is supposed go...then I stand a chance on learning it. Videos as an adjunct though -- very valuable tool.

That's it, exactly. I've been shown how to perform a particular joint lock in the dojo; then tried to apply it with my partner and just don't get it. Sensei comes over, puts my hand here, turns my wrist thusly, and whammo. No book can do that, no video can do that.

Tell you something else. There's a wealth of information in the dojo that is not part of the basic exercises and kata. If a person wanted to learn all our upper and lower body exercises and all the kata and be able to perform them, then you could say they 'know' our style. I think they'd have a hard time applying it, though. I'd say that about any style, not just ours. The meat and potatoes are not in the basic exercises and kata; that's just the framework and beginning points.

 

[MJS]

I think I've mentioned this as an example before, but I'll trot it out again. In our style, we have an upper-body block that has to be applied a certain way to be really effective. And you can write it down, make a video of it, take still photos, and practice, practice, practice, and not get it right. When practicing it in the dojo, sensei comes over and whacks you, and you bounce your own hand off your punkin' noggin. Then he adjusts your position by a couple millimeters and suddenly you can take a massive blow without moving at all; the energy flows right down your body and into the floor; you can *feel* it.

I am no martial arts expert, just a student. But I refuse to believe you can learn that from anything other than personal instruction. There just is no substitute. You can learn the basic movement, you can practice it with a partner, you can become proficient with the 'movement'. But without that adjustment, you are getting 10% of the value of the block.

I could see a person learning the same upper-body block I do from a video, and saying "Look, I know this block, see?" And it would look good, be smooth, position looks good, everything. But can it block a blow? You don't know that until you do it right and you just KNOW that it's right. And that doesn't come accidentally by trial and error, IMHO.

Lots of things, if they look good, they are good. And lots of things don't.

I don't know. I don't want to come of as an elitist; I'm frankly not qualified to be one anyway, ignorant as I am. But there are times when I think 90% of all martial arts instruction must be pure crap, that people who have had personal training think it can be substituted for by videos or books. I have trouble wrapping my mind around the notion that a person who got the kind of training I get could even think that. I do think I am extraordinarily fortunate to be training in my dojo; the training just doesn't leave any room for question as to what's superior. I hope no one takes that as an attack; I'm looking for a polite way to express my opinion based on what little experience I have.

Agreed with everything here Bill. Just to clarify, when I said mimic and perform to the best of your ability, basically, thats all it'll end up being...copying. 99% of the time, those people will be sub-par with what they pick up off the dvd. I've never learned an art from a dvd, and I never will. I'd rather not train at all, instead of trying to learn from a dvd.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agreed with everything here Bill. Just to clarify, when I said mimic and perform to the best of your ability, basically, thats all it'll end up being...copying. 99% of the time, those people will be sub-par with what they pick up off the dvd. I've never learned an art from a dvd, and I never will. I'd rather not train at all, instead of trying to learn from a dvd.

Yeah, I agree. You could say that learning the movement (mimicking it) is 10% of the application. It's the part you see. The other 90% is what a good instructor and a motivated student bring in terms of understanding. You can look just right and be completely wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is why video makes such a good supplement. In fact, its high value as a supplement IMO gets lost in the hurrdurr over video as a primary method of training.

kind of, and it depends.

There can be a lot of variation in something like a kata, from one instructor to another, even when they are from the same system and same lineage. If I went on Youtube and used the examples there to help me remember what comes next in my forms, they would be all wrong. Hell, Sifu uses the examples on Youtube as how NOT to do things. He even uses it as an insult: "You wanna look like Youtube? Get it RIGHT!!!"

In my opinion, they are really only useful if they were made by your instructor. And even then it's not always true, as my own sifu changes things as he goes. We practice a form one way, even for a long time, and then he suddenly says, "no, do it like this now, it's better because of..." He works to improve the system, it's not static and unchanging. What I see on a video that even he might have made ten or even 5 years ago, might be different from now.

So when people use a video to supplement memory or something, they fail to take into account that things are not the same across the board, everyone is NOT doing things the same. Take a look at kenpo. Nobody can agree on how things are done, even people who were classmates under the same teacher. So if a kenpo student found a random video made by someone who is NOT his instructor and used it as a guide, he's gonna have problems when he gets into class.

Video has merits, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, those circumstances are more limited that most people realize.

Video as a primary or only method of instruction is a waste of time, money, and effort. Don't do it. Don't waste your money and your time. You will only learn to mimick, and poorly at that. It is NOT the way to learn martial arts. It is NOT "better than nothing."

People tend to have an entitlement mentality, wherein they believe that because they WANT to learn something, they have a RIGHT to learn it, nevermind the fact that there are ZERO qualified instructors nearby to teach it to them. So they go to video and want to believe that it is a viable and good alternative. It's not. Sometimes ya just don't get to do what you wanna do, and that's all there is to it. Life ain't fair. If you don't have a teacher nearby, you may need to commute farther than you thought. Or you may need to pick up your things and move to where the teachers are. I did it, but I also realize most people are not in a position to do that. Again, life ain't fair.

And then there are the people who believe they are exceptional, that while most people cannot learn from video, HE is the exception who can. Everyone wants to believe that about himself. It ain't true. That's simply lying to oneself.

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed with everything here Bill. Just to clarify, when I said mimic and perform to the best of your ability, basically, thats all it'll end up being...copying. 99% of the time, those people will be sub-par with what they pick up off the dvd. I've never learned an art from a dvd, and I never will. I'd rather not train at all, instead of trying to learn from a dvd.

I'd push that all the way up to 100%

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There can be a lot of variation in something like a kata, from one instructor to another, even when they are from the same system and same lineage. If I went on Youtube and used the examples there to help me remember what comes next in my forms, they would be all wrong.

I'm fortunate that there are some old grainy videos made from Super 8 movie film of our founder and that's how we do it in our dojo!

In my opinion, they are really only useful if they were made by your instructor. And even then it's not always true, as my own sifu changes things as he goes. We practice a form one way, even for a long time, and then he suddenly says, "no, do it like this now, it's better because of..." He works to improve the system, it's not static and unchanging. What I see on a video that even he might have made ten or even 5 years ago, might be different from now.

I can understand that. I was actually referring to when I'm learning a new kata and I just can't remember what the next move is; I fully realize that there are variations but when I see what we do in our dojo, it jogs my memory and I go "Oh, yeah, that's how we did it earlier tonight!"

Video has merits, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, those circumstances are more limited that most people realize.

Yes, I agree.

Video as a primary or only method of instruction is a waste of time, money, and effort. Don't do it. Don't waste your money and your time. You will only learn to mimick, and poorly at that. It is NOT the way to learn martial arts. It is NOT "better than nothing."

I will disagree only to the extent that if there absolutely is no other way a person can get training in person - say they are stationed in the Antarctic on a six month mission or something; it might be better than nothing, if only just.

And I don't think the O/P proposed turning to video training, he was just espousing the opinion that it was a valid way to learn given a fairly stringent set of circumstances. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I don't think he was suggesting doing it himself.

People tend to have an entitlement mentality, wherein they believe that because they WANT to learn something, they have a RIGHT to learn it, nevermind the fact that there are ZERO qualified instructors nearby to teach it to them. So they go to video and want to believe that it is a viable and good alternative. It's not. Sometimes ya just don't get to do what you wanna do, and that's all there is to it. Life ain't fair. If you don't have a teacher nearby, you may need to commute farther than you thought. Or you may need to pick up your things and move to where the teachers are. I did it, but I also realize most people are not in a position to do that. Again, life ain't fair.

I agree with that, nothing personal towards the O/P, and not suggesting that he has that mentality. I do agree with you that it seems to be a common attitude these days; in everything. "I deserve a nice house too" is part of the reason our economy is in the tank.

And then there are the people who believe they are exceptional, that while most people cannot learn from video, HE is the exception who can. Everyone wants to believe that about himself. It ain't true. That's simply lying to oneself.

Also true. And there are exceptional people, to whom things come easily. But sometimes they are surprised when things don't come easily. I always got great grades in college. Everything came easily, I didn't even need to study. Until I hit a mandatory class, accounting. OMG. I took it three times. Finally aced it, but it was not easy, and I had to eat a little humble pie; and I got to find out what it's like for people who don't learn easily trying to get through school but trying their best anyway.

 

[SPX]

I will disagree only to the extent that if there absolutely is no other way a person can get training in person - say they are stationed in the Antarctic on a six month mission or something; it might be better than nothing, if only just.

All I can say on this is that my friend who learned the To-Shin Do stuff had learned something valuable. He had studied some other martial arts in the past, but never ninjutsu. I don't know if he was doing it "right," but whether right or wrong, it hurt when he did it to me and my thoughts on learning from video changed after the first day we worked together.

As for better than nothing, I'll just put it this way: Take a guy who knows nothing and has no prior training. Give him videos on boxing fundamentals, judo fundamentals, and sparring strategies, a heavy bag, and a willing and strong training partner, and I just HAVE to believe that after 6 months of regular training that he will have a DISTINCT advantage over an untrained person of the same size.

And I don't think the O/P proposed turning to video training, he was just espousing the opinion that it was a valid way to learn given a fairly stringent set of circumstances. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I don't think he was suggesting doing it himself.

I'm almost certainly going to start a wado-ryu class in a few days and I think I'll also be getting back into judo after being dormant for about 7 years.

I ordered a "shotokan kumite tactics" DVD (should be applicable to all Shotokan-style competition) and was thinking of ordering one or two BJJ vids to get a little extra edge on the ground.

Just for fun, I also ordered a Bill Wallace set to help me with stretching, kicking and point sparring strategies.

 

[Flying Crane]

As for better than nothing, I'll just put it this way: Take a guy who knows nothing and has no prior training. Give him videos on boxing fundamentals, judo fundamentals, and sparring strategies, a heavy bag, and a willing and strong training partner, and I just HAVE to believe that after 6 months of regular training that he will have a DISTINCT advantage over an untrained person of the same size.

Here's the thing: I think people often mistake "I/He/She can fight", with "I/He/She is a skilled martial artist". While that CAN be true, the two issues may coincide, it is not necessarily true.

It's not difficult to hurt someone. You don't need to have superior technique, nor a sophisticated martial system to do so. While natural attributes like strength, speed, and aggression, and a natural "knack" for fighting will help, even those things are not mandatory. Humans can be surprisingly fragile and as a whole they are not difficult to hurt, even badly.

So if someone plays around with some videos for a few months, and then they can beat someone up, have they really learned martial arts? well, maybe. But not automatically so. Maybe they'd be able to do it anyways.

Mimicking martial arts, even if you manage to beat someone up with it, doesn't mean one has learned martial arts. It just means they are a good mimic. They still don't understand the martial system, and that's what I'm getting at.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As for better than nothing, I'll just put it this way: Take a guy who knows nothing and has no prior training. Give him videos on boxing fundamentals, judo fundamentals, and sparring strategies, a heavy bag, and a willing and strong training partner, and I just HAVE to believe that after 6 months of regular training that he will have a DISTINCT advantage over an untrained person of the same size.

I suspect you are correct. However, against a person who got the same training from a talented instructor, I doubt he'd stand a chance. Of course, it's impossible to say, since people are different.

I'm almost certainly going to start a wado-ryu class in a few days and I think I'll also be getting back into judo after being dormant for about 7 years.

I ordered a "shotokan kumite tactics" DVD (should be applicable to all Shotokan-style competition) and was thinking of ordering one or two BJJ vids to get a little extra edge on the ground.

Just for fun, I also ordered a Bill Wallace set to help me with stretching, kicking and point sparring strategies.

I think others in this thread may not be aware of your recently-stated intention to get back into martial arts specifically for sport karate in another thread. I have considered ordering a sparring video myself (point-sparring) and I have a couple of books on 'Winning Karate Tournaments' that I think teach some useful sparring techniques. Not necessarily good self-defense or valid in my style as karate, but definitely useful in point-sparring. However, consider that I have 3+ years being trained to ground myself and kick correctly; if I didn't have that, the book I have on sparring would give me nothing.

You also mentioned Bill Wallace. Interestingly, I recall reading an old article in Black Belt (they're all online for free) with an interview with Bill Wallace, in which he averred that he could take any young karateka and turn him into a champion in point-sparring by teaching him the backfist and the front-leg roundhouse.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RO...gfT0eyvBw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/surefire-scoring.htm

So from what you're looking for, I think the answer may be different from that of a person studying traditional martial arts for the purpose of learning traditional martial arts (and self-defense).

Let me put it this way, and no disrespect intended. A weak kick in point-sparring is still a point. In a fight, you might get dusted. Not suggesting your kicks aren't good, understand.

 

[Buka]

Videos are a great supplement - if you have the years of mat time. Regardless of your fighting style, if you've been doing X for ten years, under good instructors, and have even applied X in competition (or at least tried to), maybe even have used X to save your hide in the real world (or was ready to use X because things were getting out of hand) - then there's a good chance you know a little bit about X.

If you take your experience and wade through the sometimes countless videos available online, you're bound to find a tidbit, maybe even a gem, that can change your game for the better. There are legendary instructors online. And there's a million others, some of whom might become legendary in their own right. Maybe you'll be watching a tournament match of some kind, not really paying that much attention - and then you'll see something that applies to that X that you do. And you'll say "Hmmm". Or be watching old "so and so" on an old film, and one little thing that you never noticed before just jumps out at you. Or maybe the guy in the vid will say something that really conveys something that you've been teaching to your students and you'll think, "I really like that expression because it paints a better picture for the kids."

We live in an age of technology. To me, youtube and the like have become a treasure chest, hell, sometimes it's almost like Christmas. But only if you have the mat time in. Otherwise, it's like learning how to swim from a book when you ain't got any water.

 

[Blindside]

I have had the opportunity to meet with some kenpo guys who were solely video trained, they sucked, three different groups from that particular organization sucked. The fourth guy was OK, and I attribute that to the background in other martial arts that he already had.

I have a long distance study group, they have video of me going over the basics and running various seminars, and they still manage to screw things up. The video reference isn't fixing things, I fix things when I am there, they think they are doing the right thing, but sometimes they aren't. And this isn't new information, they only have vids of stuff that I have already taught them. So even though they have the reference, they don't necessarily understand when and why they are getting it wrong.

With that being said, I have a huge collection of martial vids, hell, I have so many vids that I haven't watched them all, and I will be the first to say that I have learned from them. I am fascinated to look at the sword work from my Kali and compare it to the Messer training associated with the European historical arts. I have learned about how to put on a choke from a different angle, or perhaps a new sweep. But most of the application stuff is in arts that I have a somewhat decent base in, I can't imagine going off an trying to learn (for example) a Chinese internal art or aikido from a video. Way way too much subtlety involved for that.

 

[SPX]

Here's the thing: I think people often mistake "I/He/She can fight", with "I/He/She is a skilled martial artist". While that CAN be true, the two issues may coincide, it is not necessarily true.

Okay, that sounds like you're looking at martial arts almost as an academic pursuit. Maybe I should rephrase then and say that, even if a person only has the training materials that I've mentioned, then he or she can gain effective self-defense skills.

It's not difficult to hurt someone. You don't need to have superior technique, nor a sophisticated martial system to do so.

That's true, but if we're talking about going toe to toe with someone, having superior abilities is the only way to (almost) guarantee that you'll be the one who walks away in good health.

Humans can be surprisingly fragile and as a whole they are not difficult to hurt, even badly.

I've actually thought about this a lot, and I think it's amazing that anyone ever survives past adolescence.

Mimicking martial arts, even if you manage to beat someone up with it, doesn't mean one has learned martial arts. It just means they are a good mimic. They still don't understand the martial system, and that's what I'm getting at.

Well let's at least be fair, when any of us learn kata, we're mimicking the movements of our instructor. You may learn the practical application, but you're following a set of rules about how each move is supposed to be done, and in most styles--ultimately--the goal is to do it exactly as it was formulated by the founder(s).

And it is only through experience in utilizing the techniques and figuring out what works best for you--developing your own style, as it were--that you can make it your own.

 

[SPX]

I suspect you are correct. However, against a person who got the same training from a talented instructor, I doubt he'd stand a chance. Of course, it's impossible to say, since people are different.

Probably not. But most people who might attack you have no training.

I have considered ordering a sparring video myself (point-sparring) and I have a couple of books on 'Winning Karate Tournaments' that I think teach some useful sparring techniques. Not necessarily good self-defense or valid in my style as karate, but definitely useful in point-sparring.

Just to share, this is what I ordered. . .

http://www.blackbeltshop.com/bill_wallace_superfoot's_secrets_for_success_series_titles.htm

and then as an impulse buy while I was ordering the above. . .

http://www.centurymartialarts.com/DVDs/Karate/Shotokan_Karate_Kumite.aspx (wrong video cover in the image, I assume)

However, consider that I have 3+ years being trained to ground myself and kick correctly; if I didn't have that, the book I have on sparring would give me nothing.

Makes sense.

You also mentioned Bill Wallace. Interestingly, I recall reading an old article in Black Belt (they're all online for free) with an interview with Bill Wallace, in which he averred that he could take any young karateka and turn him into a champion in point-sparring by teaching him the backfist and the front-leg roundhouse.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RO...gfT0eyvBw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/surefire-scoring.htm

Man, I love Bill Wallace. I wish it wasn't so hard to find his fights online. His kicking was so SMOOTH.

Those reads were interesting. And I am not at all surprised that Wallace made that statement. I found a video the other day where he was talking about the techniques that he used in kickboxing and it was something like three kicks (lead leg roundhouse, side kick, and hook kick, I believe) and maybe 4 hand techniques.

BTW, where can you find the old Black Belt archives? On the BB site?

So from what you're looking for, I think the answer may be different from that of a person studying traditional martial arts for the purpose of learning traditional martial arts (and self-defense).

Indeed. I'm certain that my motivations do differ from a large portion of the MartialTalk community.

Though to be clear, let me actually point out that there are four distinct reasons I'm getting back into martial arts:

1. Sport.
2. Self-Defense
3. An Interest in the History and Culture
4. Fitness

Sport trumps self-defense only because I imagine there will be far more opportunities to use my skills in that way. But having that confidence of knowing that I can "handle myself" if things get crazy is also very important.

Let me put it this way, and no disrespect intended. A weak kick in point-sparring is still a point. In a fight, you might get dusted. Not suggesting your kicks aren't good, understand.

Yeah, for sure. I'll also mention that even on the sporting side, my interest goes beyond just point sparring. It won't be immediate of course, but after a few years of training, some knockdown competitions, kickboxing, or amateur MMA could potentially be in order. Will cross that bridge when I get there.

Oh, and I'm not too bashful to admit that my kicks right now are NOT that great, at least not anymore. I've been pulling them out of the closet lately, so to speak, and the first thing I noticed how utterly, shamefully inflexible I am. First order of business is definitely loosening up. I can barely even kick head high anymore.

 

[SPX]

I can't imagine going off an trying to learn (for example) a Chinese internal art or aikido from a video. Way way too much subtlety involved for that.

That's a bit different from what I was thinking. I was thinking more along the lines of something like TKD. I've done both ATA and ITF TKD (to varying degrees) and I honestly do not think of it as an overly subtle or nuanced style.

(Before some TKD guys just down my throat, note that I am not saying there aren't subtleties, I'm just saying that I think it's a relatively straightforward--I would even say basic--style when compared to something like aikido or pa kua.)

 

[Tez3]

We've had an American company advertising here to MMA gyms etc about their 'become an MMA ref' online course. I know most don't do MMA but if you did would you trust your safety and possibly life to a ref who did an online course? Here we tend to know everyone so would know their background but in somewhere like America which has vastly more people than we do does the idea of someone who perhaps has never even practised any martial art reffing fighters sound a good idea, they promise btw that you will get a licence/s from the relevant authorities in America.
http://elitemmareferees.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81&Itemid=68