8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal

Big Don

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8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal

Published: April 12, 2009 at 7:40 AM
UPI/CNN EXCERPT:
ONAIZA, Saudi Arabia, April 12 (UPI) -- A Saudi Arabian judge has refused to overturn a ruling that declared the arranged marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man legal, a relative says.

The judge, Sheikh Habib Habib, ruled for the second time Saturday in Onaiza that the girl's marriage to a friend of her father's was legal and binding. He said the child wife could file for divorce once she reached puberty, CNN reported.END EXCERPT

I do not care if their culture considers this OK. Any culture that condones this is WRONG.
Forcing an eight year old child to marry is WRONG. The father, and the "Husband" should both be shot.
 

terryl965

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This is wrong in so many ways and I for one say let them both die a horrible death.
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MA-Caver

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Agreed that it is wrong. Just the same as the Afghan government passed a law where it is legal for the husband to rape the wife if she says no to sex.

Thing is... it's how THEY live over THERE and not how WE over HERE.

While both are WRONG in our respective societies it's not in theirs. Who are WE to decide for them Right or Wrong.
WE don't have to do it, WE don't have to have laws like that.

We have to put the shoe on the other foot and think about if it were our people who were committing terrorist acts on their people and they were powerful enough to send armies to our country to root out the terrorist... then find our way of life repugnant and WRONG... would we want THEM to tell US how to live?

Same ting.

We are over there to root out possible terrorist who may commit further acts of aggression and terror against the U.S. THAT IS ALL we are there for. NOT to determine their way of life or to try and change it.
We can offer escapes for those who do not want to live there and provide sanctuary for those women who want to be away from their abusive way of life... they can come HERE if we are merciful and compassionate enough to understand their plight and misery... but one HAS to question our right to go into another country and change how THEY decide to do things.
It's not turning a blind eye but there should be a line drawn in respecting how others should want to live... no matter how repugnant it may be for us.

If we go on this tangent then we might as well invade Thailand and change their child-sex laws as well.

We would take great umbrage if they came over here and tried to change our way of doing things.
It's what THEY choose to believe/live just as we choose to believe/live. They view our women as wonton sluts because they parade around in bikini's and show their hair and faces and so forth... encouraging impure sexual thoughts in the men and boys. It's how THEY see us... are they WRONG... are WE?

It's none of our damned business HOW they live their lives when you think about it... unless or until we allow THEM to dictate to us how WE should live then we shouldn't dictate to THEM how to live.

All the while I agree strongly that they're wrong by OUR moral standards. But it has always been my belief that people have the right to choose how they live and if a people have been oppressed long enough they will rise against (or escape) their oppressors.
 
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Big Don

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Agreed that it is wrong. Just the same as the Afghan government passed a law where it is legal for the husband to rape the wife if she says no to sex.

Thing is... it's how THEY live over THERE and not how WE over HERE.

While both are WRONG in our respective societies it's not in theirs. Who are WE to decide for them Right or Wrong.
WE don't have to do it, WE don't have to have laws like that.
so, you are OK with child molestation as long as it is in another country. Wow.
We have to put the shoe on the other foot and think about if it were our people who were committing terrorist acts on their people and they were powerful enough to send armies to our country to root out the terrorist... then find our way of life repugnant and WRONG... would we want THEM to tell US how to live?

Same ting.

We are over there to root out possible terrorist who may commit further acts of aggression and terror against the U.S. THAT IS ALL we are there for. NOT to determine their way of life or to try and change it.
We can offer escapes for those who do not want to live there and provide sanctuary for those women who want to be away from their abusive way of life... they can come HERE if we are merciful and compassionate enough to understand their plight and misery... but one HAS to question our right to go into another country and change how THEY decide to do things.
It's not turning a blind eye but there should be a line drawn in respecting how others should want to live... no matter how repugnant it may be for us.

If we go on this tangent then we might as well invade Thailand and change their child-sex laws as well.

We would take great umbrage if they came over here and tried to change our way of doing things.
It's what THEY choose to believe/live just as we choose to believe/live. They view our women as wonton sluts because they parade around in bikini's and show their hair and faces and so forth... encouraging impure sexual thoughts in the men and boys. It's how THEY see us... are they WRONG... are WE?

It's none of our damned business HOW they live their lives when you think about it... unless or until we allow THEM to dictate to us how WE should live then we shouldn't dictate to THEM how to live.

All the while I agree strongly that they're wrong by OUR moral standards. But it has always been my belief that people have the right to choose how they live and if a people have been oppressed long enough they will rise against (or escape) their oppressors.
No. There really isn't a gray area on child molestation, etc, wrong is wrong, no matter when, or where, or by who. Oppression? Seriously? Dragging people kicking and screaming into the 21st century is not oppression. Denying people the "right" to eight year old wives is not oppression.

Anyone who says this is acceptable because it is within cultural norms needs a smack upside the head.
 

arnisador

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It's none of our damned business HOW they live their lives when you think about it.[...]it has always been my belief that people have the right to choose how they live

There are a lot of ways in which I agree with you, but I don't think this 8 year old girl really can make a choice. The difference between some of the ways women are treated and the way slaves have been treated are small enough to make me uncomfortable simply respecting their cultural choice.

As an aside, anyone who believes that an 8 year old can be sentenced to life in prison for murder but also believes an 8 year old can't decide to get married (even if it's at her father's urging) has a bit of a contradiction to resolve.
 

Sukerkin

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Don, I can understand your emotional reaction to this issue but please take a moment to think about what you are saying, who you are saying it to and in reaction to what you are saying it.

Given some of the things that happen in the US of A, throwing of stones is ever going to be a precarious activity for one who lives in a glass house.

Now, over here in Britain, we moved away from such practices centuries ago but they most certainly did occur. Marriages at astoundingly early ages were not at all abnormal, especially amongst the aristocracy where such arrangements were surety for alliances.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Arranged marriages have a long history in all human societies. The concept of marrying for love is relatively recent.

The age of consent for juveniles to marry also varies widely. Eight is certainly on the low side, but even in the USA, girls as young as 12 can marry with their parent's permission in some states.

The US does not permit involuntary marriage, though. And I'm glad we don't.

As to spousal rape - as late as 1973, it was still legal in all 50 states - a man could not legally rape his wife, period. It is still only a crime in 33 of the states, with the others making due with a civil charge (lawsuit) in place of criminal charges. Even some states which make spousal rape illegal, make it a lesser offense than rape between non-married people.

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32701

It can also be difficult to get prosecutors to prosecute husbands on marital rape charges, as it can be very difficult to prove the case. Not to get to squicky, but the physical evidence, well, might well have been there for perfectly legal reasons. Even signs of abuse can be used by the defense as evidence of a voluntary 'kinky' lifestyle.

I do not agree with laws that make it legal to rape one's spouse - however, even in the US, we still have such laws, very much like Afghanistan's.
 
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Big Don

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Don, I can understand your emotional reaction to this issue but please take a moment to think about what you are saying, who you are saying it to and in reaction to what you are saying it.

Given some of the things that happen in the US of A,
Excuse me? Kindly cite the last LEGALLY SANCTIONED child molestation in the US. Or, at the very least throw stones remotely related to the OP.
throwing of stones is ever going to be a precarious activity for one who lives in a glass house.

Now, over here in Britain, we moved away from such practices centuries ago but they most certainly did occur. Marriages at astoundingly early ages were not at all abnormal, especially amongst the aristocracy where such arrangements were surety for alliances.
 

Bill Mattocks

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MA-Caver

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so, you are OK with child molestation as long as it is in another country. Wow.
No. There really isn't a gray area on child molestation, etc, wrong is wrong, no matter when, or where, or by who. Oppression? Seriously? Dragging people kicking and screaming into the 21st century is not oppression. Denying people the "right" to eight year old wives is not oppression.
NO and a resounding HELL NO I am NOT okay with child molestation ANYWHERE, ANYTIME! I never advocated it at any point in my post! I agree there is NO grey area involving child molestation, abuse or even spousal or woman abuse/molestation. Get that understood. I will not repeat myself on that again! I've said enough.
However; if we had the RIGHT to stop another country from doing it then by all means. If we had the right to change another country's culture then by all means. But we do NOT have the RIGHT to dictate to another country how they should govern themselves. Other wise lets just TAKE over like the Russians have tried to do with other countries, and Germany and China and countless of others throughout history.

This is the danger we as a species face right now. The idea that EVERYONE should live the way one group decides they should. It is the slow erosion of cultural diversity. This is part of the idea of One World Government... that all should live by IT'S rules alone.
One country can go to war with another and that's fine... tribal warfare is common and natural amongst the human species.

But going to war to have the audacity to change how they live simply because they do not agree with how WE want to live is wrong. Just as wrong as their ideas about marriage and how to treat women.
That is what I'm upset about... OUR actions being determined by our reactions (emotions) rather the right reason to fight the fight and to send American (and British) young men to die in a far-away-land where we're not wanted anyway!

Anyone who says this is acceptable because it is within cultural norms needs a smack upside the head.
Don ... I respect you and have begun to enjoy your posts and input. I will ignore this. :asian:
 
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Big Don

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I don't think we have the right to ensure child molestation exists nowhere, I think we have a responsibility to do so.
To let evil thrive somewhere, because we "don't have the right" to tell people that child molestation, etc is wrong is stupid.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
IMHO, if you KNOW evil is being done and say it is OK because of X or Y or Z, you don't qualify as a good man.
 

Bill Mattocks

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There is no child molestation going on here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ed-EIGHT-divorce-husband-50-years-senior.html

"She doesn't know yet that she has been married," Jtili said then of the girl who was about to begin her fourth year at primary school.
Relatives who did not wish to be named said that the marriage had not yet been consummated, and that the girl continued to live with her mother.
They said that the father had set a verbal condition by which the marriage is not consummated for another 10 years, when the girl turns 18.
 

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I don't think we have the right to ensure child molestation exists nowhere, I think we have a responsibility to do so.
To let evil thrive somewhere, because we "don't have the right" to tell people that child molestation, etc is wrong is stupid.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
IMHO, if you KNOW evil is being done and say it is OK because of X or Y or Z, you don't qualify as a good man.

What, then, would be the right thing to do, Don?
 

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Speaking out against evil is the very least humanity obligates us to do.
Mavis (Mrs Jay) Leno sets a good, if ignored, example of this.


So because Caver isn't speaking out against the Saudi gov't on your thread, he's complicit with their behaviour?

And good for Mavis Leno, but even she picks her battles.
 
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Big Don

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So because Caver isn't speaking out against the Saudi gov't on your thread, he's complicit with their behaviour?

And good for Mavis Leno, but even she picks her battles.
He didn't not speak out against it. He said that we had no right to say it was wrong.
 

MA-Caver

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Speaking out against evil is the very least humanity obligates us to do.
Mavis (Mrs Jay) Leno sets a good, if ignored, example of this.
That IS our right... to speak out.. but to FORCE change upon them is NOT our right NOR is it our obligation.

How'd you like it if I came into your home and started forcing you at gun point to cook dinner in a certain manner or to make love to your wife in THIS way and not the manner you're (both) used to? That I make you change the furniture around and have you watch only THIS or THAT program on TV... I'm there in your house and forcing you to do these things?

You'd be wanting to kick my *** wouldn't you? Why? Just because I'm trying to take away your right to live the way YOU want to live in your own home. What about it? So? Well it's wrong.
I can on this forum or out in front of your house on the public sidewalk stand there and protest and protest loudly about how you're living in your own house... but I cannot just go in and MAKE you do it.
Now if you're breaking the laws of the land then it's up to the authorities to enforce the laws... but is it against any international law what those countries' cultures say it's right to do (for them)?
We can condemn and protest at what they're doing in their yard but we cannot force them to stop doing it until we have the RIGHT to do so.
Morally we'd be right. But to their eyes we're being the immoral ones.

All I'm saying like it or not, hate it or not we do NOT have the right to tell others how to live. We can try to convince them but a mind convinced against it's own will is of the same opinion still.
 
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something needs to be said

Saudi law is based on Islam. It is a Sha'ria country after all

this decision as made by consulting Islam

that means ISLAM CONDONES THIS

after all, the prophet married a 6 year old.....
 

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It means that some Muslim interpretations of the Koran and associated documents condone this...just as some interpretations of the Bible and associated documents condone (plural) marriage to children.
 

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