Judge: 2 adoptive dads can be named on birth certificate

[Big Don]

Judge: 2 adoptive dads can be named on birth certificate

By JANET McCONNAUGHEY
Associated Press/Houston Chronicle

Excerpt:

Dec. 27, 2008, 6:35PM



NEW ORLEANS — A same-sex couple in California has won a federal court ruling that their adopted son's Louisiana birth certificate must bear the names of both adoptive fathers.
The facts are so clear that no trial is needed, U.S. District Judge Jay Zainey wrote.
"What a great Christmas present for these guys!" said Kenneth D. Upton Jr. who represented Oren Adar and Mickey Ray Smith of San Diego.
In his ruling Monday, Zainey said Louisiana's Office of Vital Records must give full faith and credit to the New York State court in which Adar and Smith adopted the boy, he ruled Monday. The office had refused to issue a birth certificate listing both as the boy's legal parents.
Upton, reached at home Saturday evening, said he hopes to get a birth certificate in the coming week but doesn't know whether the Louisiana Attorney General's Office — which is in charge, although a state health department attorney argued the case — will decide to appeal.
The attorney general's office will look into the matter next week, said Tammi Arender Herring, spokeswoman for Attorney General James "Buddy" Caldwell.
END EXCERPT


I thought, silly me, that things like birth and death certificates were supposed to reflect, what is that word, oh, yeah, the FACTS.

The facts are that it takes one male and one female to cause a pregnancy and thus a child. This judge's ruling will make the fans of homosexuality happy, but, it ignores reality. Yeah, it does piss me off. Here is why:
There is no judge anywhere that would let me have my son's mother's name removed from his birth certificate, despite the fact that she said in open court that "I don't want any rights to him." and the fact that she has contributed no monies nor time in 11 years, and he is only 12...
There are areas where you can look to the gray areas and ignore black and white, this is not one of them.

 

[Big Don]

My birthday is on the thirteenth, every few years it lands on a Friday and people make fun of it and me that day. Should a judge rule that I can change my birth certificate to state I was born on the 27th? NO. Why? Because that isn't true.
I have to congratulate the attorneys in this case, they convinced a judge that facts are unimportant. So, if I can get a judge to rule I am King of the World, I can start levying taxes on you?! Hey, facts don't matter...

 

[MA-Caver]

.

 

[elder999]

I thought, silly me, that things like birth and death certificates were supposed to reflect, what is that word, oh, yeah, the FACTS.

No, Don-birth certificates often don't reflect what you would call the FACTS.

My wife, first wife and sister were all adopted. Typically, as part of the adoption process, parents are provided with a new birth certificate, one that shows the adoptive parents as, well, parents. In this case, full faith and credit requires that both parents-in this case, two men-be put on the birth certificate. This was done for the reasons outlined in the case-insurance, custody, etc. It's also the reason it was done in more conventional adoptions-not to attempt some sort of deception, which is, of course, impossible in this case, as the FACTS reflect that the two of them could not actually be the birth parents-at least, not without some ridiculous medical adventure.....

Speaking of medical adventure, when a person receives gender reassignment surgery, or a sex change, their birth certificate is legally altered to reflect their new gender-this is another case where the birth certificate doesn't necessarily reflect the facts. Same with legal name changes-as you've posted, if a judge lets you change your name from "Big Don" to "King of the World," then you could get a new birth certificate reflecting that. And, if you really wanted to alter your birthdate, and a had testimony from a psychiatrist that being born on the 13th was resulting in lasting psychological damage, you probably could change the date..

If I were you, though, I'd keep the 13th, and "Big Don" They fit...:lfao:

In any case, I don't see how this affects anyone, other than the people involved, for better or worse, and don't see how it affects anyone involved for worse. Sorry.

 

[MA-Caver]

It affects the child whenever he looks at the birth certificate and sees two MEN as his parents and thinks that they had sex and he was the result.

 

[elder999]

It affects the child whenever he looks at the birth certificate and sees two MEN as his parents and thinks that they had sex and he was the result.

No....the circumstances there would clearly indicate that the child was a moron. :lfao:

When did you first see your birth certificate? :lfao:

More importantly, do you think for a minute that two men are going to try to convince their adopted child that he was the result of sex between them? Isn't it more likely that he'll have been told the truth of his adoption, as well as the circumstances of his parentage? Given that, the legal mechanism of his birth certificate becomes relveant only as that-a legal device to ensure that both parents have parental rights.

 

[MA-Caver]

No....the circumstances there would clearly indicate that the child was a moron. :lfao:

When did you first see your birth certificate? :lfao:

I first saw mine when I was about 8... found it while helping my parents pack up things for our move out of state... asked me mum what was it that had my name on it she told me...
I at least had the benefit of growing up with a female mother and a male father to where it all made sense.

A child is only a moron because he hasn't been taught the PROPER differences

 

[Tames D]

I understand where your coming from Big Don and I kinda agree.

But if birth certificates reflected the facts then my kids certificates would have the name of a man who abandoned them at birth (leaving them with a very, very young mother unable to support them).

My wife and I adopted them at birth and raised them and they know me as their dad. I like that my name is on their birth certificates as Father.

 

[Nolerama]

I think this is just Big Don's opinion/poke at his feelings on gay marriage/adoption/legitimacy as functional human beings. I get it. You don't think gay people should have similar rights as straight people.

But I disagree. They should be able to enjoy (at least on a facetious, American living level) life, liberty, and their pursuit of happiness as long as it doesn't harm others.

Those are two facts. As well as two very different opinions.

Come on, there are much worse things to worry about, like the way the food you get at Taco Bell NEVER looks as scrumptious as it does in the pictures.

 

[Big Don]

I think this is just Big Don's opinion/poke at his feelings on gay marriage/adoption/legitimacy as functional human beings. I get it. You don't think gay people should have similar rights as straight people.

Not at all. It is my opinion/poke that vital records, which is what most states call Birth and/or Death Certificates should reflect reality. Two men are incapable of birthing a child, therefore, there should be only one father listed on any birth certificate regardless of how PC the coupling is.

 

[Big Don]

I understand where your coming from Big Don and I kinda agree.

But if birth certificates reflected the facts then my kids certificates would have the name of a man who abandoned them at birth (leaving them with a very, very young mother unable to support them).

My wife and I adopted them at birth and raised them and they know me as their dad. I like that my name is on their birth certificates as Father.

Your name is on plenty of adoption paperwork, I am sure. That ought to show the kids and anyone else what lengths your love for them led you to go.
You cannot have a different date on the birth certificate because that would be wrong, why then is it acceptable to alter other information?

 

[elder999]

Your name is on plenty of adoption paperwork, I am sure. That ought to show the kids and anyone else what lengths your love for them led you to go.
You cannot have a different date on the birth certificate because that would be wrong, why then is it acceptable to alter other information?

C'mon, Don, that's just obtuse. I've already pointed out how those things could be changed. You could get a sex change, and the information on your birth certificate would be changed from male to female, and the name (if there was one besides "baby γάιδαρος's αλόγων" ) would be changed to "Denise," or "Donna," or whichever simply fabulous name you chose to live out your life as a woman.

Sorry, it's a legal document. Doesn't mean it can be changed. Doesn't even mean it reflects FACTS.

 

[MA-Caver]

Your name is on plenty of adoption paperwork, I am sure. That ought to show the kids and anyone else what lengths your love for them led you to go.
You cannot have a different date on the birth certificate because that would be wrong, why then is it acceptable to alter other information?

I've two close friends of mine who had a physically abusing father (as well as an abusing husband)... when their mother was brave enough to leave him, they were happier... she then met and eventually married another gentleman who has been quite on the far opposite end of the abusive scale as the original father. He's been nothing but kind and generous and loving.
The two friends call him "father/dad" as for the abusive biological one... they simply refer to him as the "sperm-donor". His name however remains on the birth certificate.
It is also for legal reasons should that ever come up that it remains so.

As I see it a birth certificate is a legal document... it should not be augmented, altered, switched around to fit convenience. Person wants a sex change... g'wan ahead and knock yourself out... do whatever barks up your tree... but you're still far as I'm concerned... John or Jane Doe no matter what your physical alteration might be, as it says on the birth certificate. Mentally, emotionally and now physically a woman/man... but biologically your DNA is still going to show up the original sex.

 

[arnisador]

This is great news, though I also see the value of recording the birth mother's name for genealogical and medical reasons.

As to the facts, paternity tests repeatedly show that a great many men are raising children they think are theirs...until you DNA test all parents, it's a crap-shoot.

 

[tellner]

As elder pointed out, official birth certificates do not always reflect the uterus and sperm donor. And that is the way it's been for a very, very long time. Adoptive parents are very often the official parents of record.

What makes this case special is the same thing that's raising Don's blood pressure. The two parents of record are both men.

And that's perfectly fine. It allows both of them to share parental responsibility. It means that if one of them dies the other is still the surviving parent. It's in the best interests of the child. And stability and security for little children are the whole point of the exercise.

 

[Rich Parsons]

No, Don-birth certificates often don't reflect what you would call the FACTS.

My wife, first wife and sister were all adopted. Typically, as part of the adoption process, parents are provided with a new birth certificate, one that shows the adoptive parents as, well, parents. In this case, full faith and credit requires that both parents-in this case, two men-be put on the birth certificate. This was done for the reasons outlined in the case-insurance, custody, etc. It's also the reason it was done in more conventional adoptions-not to attempt some sort of deception, which is, of course, impossible in this case, as the FACTS reflect that the two of them could not actually be the birth parents-at least, not without some ridiculous medical adventure.....

Speaking of medical adventure, when a person receives gender reassignment surgery, or a sex change, their birth certificate is legally altered to reflect their new gender-this is another case where the birth certificate doesn't necessarily reflect the facts. Same with legal name changes-as you've posted, if a judge lets you change your name from "Big Don" to "King of the World," then you could get a new birth certificate reflecting that. And, if you really wanted to alter your birthdate, and a had testimony from a psychiatrist that being born on the 13th was resulting in lasting psychological damage, you probably could change the date..

If I were you, though, I'd keep the 13th, and "Big Don" They fit...:lfao:

In any case, I don't see how this affects anyone, other than the people involved, for better or worse, and don't see how it affects anyone involved for worse. Sorry.

Elder999 has a good point here. I know some and have read links here of people that were named as the father, and no matter the DNA testing, the "mother" named him on the certificate so, now this guy is the legal "father" and must provide support.

I understand the Adoption Process provides for "new" Certificates so the New Parents may have legal rights to the child.

 

[elder999]

I've two close friends of mine who had a physically abusing father (as well as an abusing husband)... when their mother was brave enough to leave him, they were happier... she then met and eventually married another gentleman who has been quite on the far opposite end of the abusive scale as the original father. He's been nothing but kind and generous and loving.
The two friends call him "father/dad" as for the abusive biological one... they simply refer to him as the "sperm-donor". His name however remains on the birth certificate.
It is also for legal reasons should that ever come up that it remains so.

If their new dad were to legally adopt them, it would require that their natural father give up his parental rights. Were this to occur, they could be issued new birth certificates with their adoptive dad listed as father. I'm friends with a couple who were pretty much the same as your friend's parents: he adopted the little girl from the first marriage, eventually, and her birth certificate and last name were changed.

As I see it a birth certificate is a legal document... it should not be augmented, altered, switched around to fit convenience. Person wants a sex change... g'wan ahead and knock yourself out... do whatever barks up your tree... but you're still far as I'm concerned... John or Jane Doe no matter what your physical alteration might be, as it says on the birth certificate. Mentally, emotionally and now physically a woman/man... but biologically your DNA is still going to show up the original sex.

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but the FACT (sorry, not shouting, just using BigDonscript:lol remains that legal practice has been just the opposite for all of our lives.Legal documents: contracts, deeds, liens and such, get changed, altered and switched around every day,because there are legal mechanisms to do so. It's not a new thing at all. And, the fact remains that, whether you like it or not, gay couples have been adopting children-many of whom wouldn't have families, otherwise-for a long time. And, the fact remains that in jurisdictions that specifically banned such adoptions, the courts have struck down the legislation that made such bans as unconsitutional. So, the facts are that couples who basically have genitals that mechanically exclude them from the conventional reproductive process are going to have children, in one way or another, and-since a legal mechanism for doing so has already been in place for a long, long time-have the opportunity to change their children's birth certificates to reflect their parentage.Still don't see how it hurts anyone, or how it's anyone else's business....got another question for you 'Caver: when's the last time you saw someone else's birth certificate?

 

[MA-Caver]

..got another question for you 'Caver: when's the last time you saw someone else's birth certificate?

Couple months ago when I was at the county health dept. to get my birth certificate (original was long lost) as proof to change my drivers license from Utah to Tennessee. Met a nice woman... we chatted while in line (ok, flirted) and did the "show me yours I'll show you mine"... unfortunately nothing ever came of that... :idunno: Oh, the bc did confirm that she was female and about my age... (couple of other things confirmed she was female but... I won't skew the thread )

But nothing untoward unusual about hers compared to mine... why?

 

[elder999]

Couple months ago when I was at the county health dept. to get my birth certificate (original was long lost) as proof to change my drivers license from Utah to Tennessee. Met a nice woman... we chatted while in line (ok, flirted) and did the "show me yours I'll show you mine"... unfortunately nothing ever came of that... :idunno:

But nothing untoward unusual about hers compared to mine... why?

Sorry ya struck out there, pal-better luck next time....:lol:

edit added for 'Caver's edit: yeah, but if she had had gender reassignement surgery, her birth certificate could have been changed years before to reflect her new gender. She could have adopted any kids that were hers.etc., etc., etc.

Why? I've seen my birth certificate, my kids', both of my wives, and until very recently, that was it. My sister died last year, and I saw hers, and now I actually have copies of my nephews'. Other than that, though, I've never seen anyone else's birth certificate, and don't know how such a thing could be any of my business....

What makes this case special is the same thing that's raising Don's blood pressure. The two parents of record are both men.

No so sure that's true. I think he was ignorant of the mechanisms whereby birth certificates do get changed. The whole adoption by same gender couples thing is a whole other (obviously related) issue.

 

[Twin Fist]

well well well

i can see both sides of this issue

on one hand, a BIRTH certificate should list the two people that biologically created that person

on the other hand, the 2 gay dudes adopted the kid, MY birth certificate listed my adoptive parents, not my biological ones.

I understand it from both sides