8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal

[MA-Caver]

something needs to be said

Saudi law is based on Islam. It is a Sha'ria country after all

this decision as made by consulting Islam

that means ISLAM CONDONES THIS

after all, the prophet married a 6 year old.....

I agree we do need to protest against this... but we cannot force them to it. We can stand and march right outside their homes and they can just open the door flip us off and go back inside and close the door and continue with what they're doing.

If there is an international law against it and they SIGNED it by agreement then we can go in and enforce it. But like the Geneva convention Japan didn't sign it and therefore did whatever the hell they wanted with their prisoners of war.

Same ting.

 

[Twin Fist]

Please show me a court that makes decisions based soley on the bible and Christian law

And then show me one where they ok'd the marraige of an 8 year old.

untill then? keep on apologizing for and rationalizing thier atrocities

it makes you look VERY fair minded.

It means that some Muslim interpretations of the Koran and associated documents condone this...just as some interpretations of the Bible and associated documents condone (plural) marriage to children.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Please show me a court that makes decisions based soley on the bible and Christian law

And then show me one where they ok'd the marraige of an 8 year old.

untill then? keep on apologizing for and rationalizing thier atrocities

it makes you look VERY fair minded.

Jerry Lee Lewis married his 12-year-old cousin. And he was surprised that people were so upset about it in England, it was common where he was from.

And he wasn't going to wait until she was 18, either, judging by the fact that she was pregnant by age 13.

Yeah, we've got lots of moral authority to tell other countries what to do.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

so, you are OK with child molestation as long as it is in another country. Wow.
No. There really isn't a gray area on child molestation, etc, wrong is wrong, no matter when, or where, or by who. Oppression? Seriously? Dragging people kicking and screaming into the 21st century is not oppression. Denying people the "right" to eight year old wives is not oppression.

Anyone who says this is acceptable because it is within cultural norms needs a smack upside the head.

Don, I don't see him saying it's ok. I see him saying it's the culture, which according to their laws, laws which are rather strictly enforced, says only that sex is legal when married. Otherwise, it's not.

Excuse me? Kindly cite the last LEGALLY SANCTIONED child molestation in the US. Or, at the very least throw stones remotely related to the OP.

Age of consent in alot of the US is 13/14. Not much of a jump from 8 to 13 IMO.
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

Age is lower if legally married, which is allowed in many states if a parent signs off on it and a judge does as well.

My opinion?
8's too young. But in some countries, kids are soldiers at 14. Not my country, not my culture, not my concern. I'm sure I could rant, complain, and go on long forum screes and the Saudi King will issue a decree changing it. Oh wait, he would care less what I think.

Lets just get everyone together, grab our guns (before they are collected by OUR government) and head over there and teach them how to respect a kid. Who's ready to go?

Really. Who is ready to go? Get your guns, load up the attack craft, and go and teach them a lesson. Or, is the idea that we should send other people to die for this?

Sorry, not my country, not my faith, not my culture, not any way related to anyone I know or care about, so I'll be staying here. If the Saudi's are concerned, they can handle it, which I believe they are, through their own systems.

Course, they have some good ideas on drugs, drinking and a few other issues that we all enjoy, maybe they should come and "help" us, hmm?

Lets go on another bit. Every day, hundreds of women and children are regularly raped all over Africa. Where's the outrage?

The Thai child sex industry is still pretty hot. Virgins are sold off by their families, druged, raped then disposed of afterwords. That means killed, just so we're on the same page. Where's the outrage?

Too much stress here. Lets all go relax at our local asian rub n tugs. Oh wait....half of them are staffed with illegals here in sex slavery. Where's the outrage?

Don, you and everyone else here who is incensed by this, has every right to be. It offends you, at a core level. Hell, it offends me too. But. Really, other than draw attention to the issue, what effect can we possibly have here?

 

[Archangel M]

8 and 13 are VASTLY different in terms of basic physical development..I just have to add that...if you raised any you would see that. 8yo are 3rd graders fer chrissakes.

On another point. Who said anything about FORCING or INVADING anybody or any place? All I heard was that the OP thought that it was despicable and disgusting...which it is. Want to ***** about the Thai sex trade then start a thread on it. Somehow I dont think it would have generated the same heat because it isnt associated with Islam which is our current political hot button.

I think that things like this should effect our foriegn policy, and how we deal with these nations....absolutely.

 

[Thesemindz]

The idea that sex and marriage is only appropriate for people who are at least in their late teens is a relatively new idea which has only risen in approximately the last fifty years, and only in the first world.

Until that point, and still in most of the world children as young as ten were regularly considered ready for sexual maturity and marriage. What we consider today to be the age of sexual maturity would have been, until fairly recently, considered beyond the prime.

Beyond that, numerous studies have shown that child sexual activity begins at ages as young as four.

Social and technological evolution tends to lead to the postponing of sexual activity until the teenage years. This is due in part to increased educational opportunities. Even then, nearly half of all teenagers 15-19 have had sex at least once.

While we may not agree with it, and while in some cases it may engender disgust and outrage within our culture, we should be rational enough to put that attitude in context and understand that we are in the minority in our views of human sexuality.

That doesn't make us wrong necessarily, but it does make us outnumbered.

The evidence would tend to show that if we really want to decrease the number of kids having sex around the world, we should increase the educational and technological level of the societies which are exhibiting high levels of child sexual behavior. That can only be accomplished through free trade, both of material goods and ideas.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

Thats all very interesting. Except in this case the mother and daughter DONT WANT THE MARRIAGE TO HAPPEN! The girls father sold her to pay a debt, against the mom and girls will.

And the Saudi "legal system" allows it. "Saudi Arabia", a supposedly wealthy, modern, second..if not first world culture.Technologicaly at least.

This isnt a case of "everybody is happy so leave them alone" here....

 

[Big Don]

FYI:
In the original meaning, First World countries were Western Nations i.e., The US, Canada, the UK, etc. Second World countries were those industrialized nations allied with the Soviet/Eastern block. Third World nations were (are) either NON aligned nations or non-industrialized nations.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I would worry more about the girl being raped in my own country first then worry about another countries culture. If you want to change it start with your own backyard first.

Big Don if you feel strongly about it go there and try to change it.

 

[Phoenix44]

I don't know about "forcing" countries to comply with our sensibilities, but on the other hand, we don't have to grant them Most Favored Nation Trade Status, either.

I mean, unless they have oil or something, in which case who cares about 8 year old kids, anyway?

 

[MA-Caver]

Thats all very interesting. Except in this case the mother and daughter DONT WANT THE MARRIAGE TO HAPPEN! The girls father sold her to pay a debt, against the mom and girls will.

And the Saudi "legal system" allows it.

That is the point I'm trying, hell, been trying to make here... it's LEGAL over there so it's their business with what they do and how they run their country... it's none of ours... nor is it none of THEIRS to decide how WE run our (respective) countries.
We can condemn it and be totally against it and write letters to them and all of that... but we CANNOT tell them HOW to live. Same as they cannot dictate our lives.

 

[Carol]

When arrangements are made in the case of one or both spouses are children, the tradition is for them to remain with their parents until they reach an appropriate age, usually in their teens.

Not saying I agree with the practice, just saying that an arranged marriage at a young age does not automatically equate to child molestation.

 

[Ceicei]

There is no child molestation going on here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ed-EIGHT-divorce-husband-50-years-senior.html

"She doesn't know yet that she has been married," Jtili said then of the girl who was about to begin her fourth year at primary school. Relatives who did not wish to be named said that the marriage had not yet been consummated, and that the girl continued to live with her mother. They said that the father had set a verbal condition by which the marriage is not consummated for another 10 years, when the girl turns 18.

This is worth repeating. I bolded and underlined these words for emphasis. If they actually do comply with the conditions set forth, then I have no objection with this marriage (although I still think she is too young to be married, especially since she has no say with the decision). At least, they're holding off the consummation. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens before she turns 18.

Apparently she is continuing her education as she is mentioned to be in her fourth year at primary school. For that, I applaud their decision to let her continue her schooling.

- Ceicei

 

[Twin Fist]

I know we cant change it, i know that really, we dont have the right to try to change it, but i would think the least we can do is to say "thats wrong"

period

dont then add on "but thats that culture and to them it isnt wrong...." or a bunch of other moral relativism crap

I know, i know, "keeping an open mind" and all that, and that is valid, to a degree, but much like a wound, if a mind is too open, for too long, it is prone to infection.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In that culture, it's often not seen as wrong.

Doesn't negate the fact that in ours, we see it as wrong.

 

[arnisador]

untill then? keep on apologizing for and rationalizing thier atrocities

it makes you look VERY fair minded.

Since you seem to have difficulty even seeing things from the POV of an American from the Democratic party, I am not surprised that you're finding this a stretch even after it's been explained that this doesn't entail the child leaving her home, let alone engaging in sexual relations.

 

[KELLYG]

I don't agree with the child in essence being sold to a man 40yrs her senior against her, and his wifes will, but in that area of the world it is not uncommon. This sounds more like a "pre-arranged" marriage not what we would consider being Married. She is indeed his wife but is NOT expected to preform intimate relations until she is over the age of consent.

This to me is different than if she was expected at 8yrs old to have relations with her husband.

 

[Thesemindz]

I know we cant change it, i know that really, we dont have the right to try to change it, but i would think the least we can do is to say "thats wrong"

period

dont then add on "but thats that culture and to them it isnt wrong...." or a bunch of other moral relativism crap

I know, i know, "keeping an open mind" and all that, and that is valid, to a degree, but much like a wound, if a mind is too open, for too long, it is prone to infection.

This may be the most lucid thing I've ever seen you post.

And I agree.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

I know we cant change it, i know that really, we dont have the right to try to change it, but i would think the least we can do is to say "thats wrong"

period

dont then add on "but thats that culture and to them it isnt wrong...." or a bunch of other moral relativism crap

I know, i know, "keeping an open mind" and all that, and that is valid, to a degree, but much like a wound, if a mind is too open, for too long, it is prone to infection.

Exactly. Its as if we are not allowed to think anything is wrong anymore without getting a lecture.

That slaughter in Darfur is just "the way they do things over there". Somali piracy isnt "wrong" to them. Who are we to tell them to stop? If something doesn't effect me then its not MY problem.

Its one thing to hold those type of beliefs when it comes to deciding if its worth military intervention in others affairs, but how long is it till that type of "relativism" seeps into our everyday lives? Who are we to judge the child molester down the street?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Exactly. Its as if we are not allowed to think anything is wrong anymore without getting a lecture.

Who said you are to think a certain way? Think whatever you like. I certainly do.

That slaughter in Darfur is just "the way they do things over there". Somali piracy isnt "wrong" to them. Who are we to tell them to stop? If something doesn't effect me then its not MY problem.

Right. When they attacked a US-flagged ship, it became our problem. Until then, not so much.

Its one thing to hold those type of beliefs when it comes to deciding if its worth military intervention in others affairs, but how long is it till that type of "relativism" seeps into our everyday lives? Who are we to judge the child molester down the street?

Not a slippery slope argument that I can buy into. China has a 'one child' policy that I find brutal and inhuman. Also not my problem. I doubt they'll try to impose that law here. And if we try to impose a law like that, then...I'll have something to say about it.

And of course, you continue to conflate 'child marriage' where the kid is married in a fairly symbolic way with child molestation. As noted, the 'consumation' is not to take place until the girl is 18, and she lives with mommy until then, and she is free to divorce at that age, as the judge said. In what way is that child molestation?

Here in the USA, we demand that we have the right to run our own affairs as we see fit. Other countries routinely condemn us for having a death penalty, the Pope is mad at us for allowing abortion, and the UN has a never-ending stream of complaints about how awful we are, and in many cases, how in violation of UN rules we are. We don't care. They can all take a long walk off a short pier. We're the USA, and we do what we want.

Fine with me. But if we demand the right to self-determination, then other countries get that right to their own self-rule, too. And we can pass judgment on them, urge them to change, even choose not to do business with them - all fine with me. But force them to change? Please. Like we'd allow Afghanistan to come here and tell us how to run our lives.