Your ranking system

[Satt]

Thanks

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I have arnauds Notes, I also have a copy of Charles daniels original notes and another copy from Ed. They are not always the same but close. Henka at its best!!!

 

[Jay Bell]

Those interested in exploring Takagi Yoshin ryu indepth might want to check out Arnaud's manual from www.budomart.com that among other things lists every technique with a brief explanation to each. No, no pictures.

No it doesn't. There are more techniques.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I think this example right here is why sensei say to train with as many as possible. No-one seems to have exactly the same notes. I have seen that from the copies I have. Some have more or less notes than others. I feel that there is more out there but in reality, i will never have it all. Neither do i need it all.

I am only looking to train and do as well as I can for me. If i have something that i have learned that is a benefit to someone else, i will not hold it back from them. This is just me. I have been exposed to too many people that want to treat this art like they have been given the golden apple and then do not want to show it to others. This is not what sensei wants. At the 2002 taikai which was the lowest priced taikai here in the U.S. from what I understand, he looked out and saw a sea of green. He loved that there were so many green belts at that taikai. I think Sensei wants people to learn and understand his art, not to aquire knowledge and then treat it as "my precious". I have found it is impossible to give away all you learn and figure out. More will and has always come.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

No it doesn't. There are more techniques.

If that rumor's true, then would it praytell have anything to do with ne waza?

 

[Kreth]

I think Sensei wants people to learn and understand his art, not to aquire knowledge and then treat it as "my precious".

Well, it's tough to establish your own ninja empire if you give away all your info, and this is the goal for some

Jeff

 

[Jay Bell]

If that rumor's true, then would it praytell have anything to do with ne waza?

If by 'ne-waza', you mean rolling around like BJJ does, no. There are fundemental techniques that are not taught (openly?) in the Bujinkan.

 

[Satt]

Well, I went out and bought my green belt just for preparation. I think it is really cool that you just wear the green in the Bujinkan until you get your black. I am getting really excited to actually study with a real instructer!!! This will force me to just think about what I am learning instead of my belt color. Oh yeah, by the way Chris, I am sorry I got you hooked on MT. I have been so addicted and I am sure you are getting there too. He he.

 

[Jay Bell]

Jason,

Have you talked to the instructor? Most have students where white until they receive their green belt.

 

[Satt]

Oh I know, I just bought it just to have it you know. I am sorry I made it sound so bad. I have my white belt from To-Shin Do to. I even had bought a blue belt for incase I made that to. My main comment though was I think it is cool that the Bujinkan just has one belt. It keeps things simple you know. This is my last comment.

 

[Jay Bell]

Nono, you didn't make it sound bad at all. I just didn't want you to show up day 1 and be told that you had the wrong belt on

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If by 'ne-waza', you mean rolling around like BJJ does, no. There are fundemental techniques that are not taught (openly?) in the Bujinkan.

I should know, I've practiced them. What I wondered what whether or not it's true that these come from Takagi Yoshin ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu.

 

[Jay Bell]

I think we're crossing wires here. For clarity -- there are waza from Takagi Yoshin ryu as well as Shinden Fudo ryu that are done from a seated position. That is not the information I was referring to as not being done within Bujinkan training.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I was at a seminar once were Papasan (Ed Martin) did some kata from Takagi Yoshin Ryu from Seiza, sitting in a chair, and from standing. It was pretty wild stuff. The chair you are in makes a pretty good weapon.

 

[Don Roley]

Let me also add to my above posts. These notes were neatly typed up and printed and have come to me from many places. Ed sent me five ryu, I already had Kukishin Ryu. No I have not worked on all the kata but have worked on at least the shoden (I know there are different names for the Gyokko levels) level of them. I have been exposed to many of the kata from a teacher to help me to undrstand the feeling of the ryu. Not just the shoden levels of these things either. I still have much to learn and explore, so dont bash me too badly.

Let the bashing begin! :whip:

In all seriousness, you have hit a sore spot with me and I have to stand up and say that if you are trying to learn from notes, you are just plain wrong. You can't learn the kata from notes. I do not mean it is difficult, I do not mean you have to work harder I am saying that it is impossible to learn the kata from notes. The same goes for video tapes.

Oh sure, I know people who use them as references for what they have learned. And I know at least one guy here in Japan that goes through the motions from notes he got like you before he shows up to his teacher's class. But after he shows what he practiced, the teacher shows him the real stuff and the important points that can't be conveyed by notes.

I dare say, the kata cannot be conveyed by seminars or brief visits to Japan. They need to be learned, practiced and then at a later date reevaluated by the teacher for errors that have crept in and more stuff of deeper understanding shown.

The problem in the Bujinkan is that there are so few people that learn this way. I once had a video on bojutsu from a non-Japanese. I was learning bojutsu from one of the Japanese shihan at the time. Almost everything the teacher pointed out to me as a mistake and bad habit, the guy was doing. I have had conversations with guys here in Japan and we wonder how people can show up for only a few weeks to Japan at a time and teach all the kata from a school later on. In a month of training here you are probably only going to see a handfull of kata. Yet there are several people giving seminars on all the kata of a particular school. That is just plain wrong. I do not think people should be practicing the kata they get off of notes and I think it is unethical for teachers to teach the same. I have not had the complete kata of any one school taught to me by a qualified teacher. But if I ever become a teacher I will only show those kata from those schools I have learned and had corrected at a later class.

I'll get off the soapbox now. :soapbox:

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Don,

I do respect your oppinion, however, I am pretty isolated as far as good teachers are concerned. I drive long distances,go and sleep in tents, floors, cots and were ever i can find a cheap place to lay my head, all to bring back things for my students and do the best i can to learn this art. I know I have alot of teachers above me that are pleased with what I am doing. I dont make excuses, I train hard, and never ask for anything other than an opportunity to learn.

The thing I have a problem with is those people that live or visit there, attain knowledge and then keep it like it was their most precious possestion and never communicate it to the rest of us. I really dont care for the pompass megadans that treat others as if they were their domain and if you want to learn you must learn it from me. Or this, I am the only one teaching that has it right.

My question to you is this, what would you have me do, quit? No sir, it has not been easy on me to learn what i have, and it has been dang hard doing this, raising two boys and holding down a job for the past 16 years to provide for my family. So pardon me if I have people above me who care and want the best for those of us who train here. They give me their best and i them.

 

[Don Roley]

My question to you is this, what would you have me do, quit?

No, stay within what you have been taught since that is probably enough and more than 99 percent of the people in martial arts will ever see. The basics, done right, are much better than trying to learn from kata notes.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

No, stay within what you have been taught since that is probably enough and more than 99 percent of the people in martial arts will ever see. The basics, done right, are much better than trying to learn from kata notes.

This is what I do, I go by these rules, everything begins and ends with kihon, Ultimately everything is henka. I always try to stay within the framework of the principles taught. I use the kata to find new ways to learn the kihon and sanshin, and in turn I get insights to the kata. I have never said i know anything or everything, In fact the more I learn, the less I know.

I have had the notion lately that all the Ryu are made up of the Kihon and sanshin. But this is requiring more and more research and training.

And Just for the record in my above post, i was not mad or upset, but I will state my oppinion, and give others the right to state theirs. Have a good day sir

 

[Tengu6]

With all due respect to Don, who are you to say what can and cant be done? Video tapes, notes, whatever medium......if you start with what you know and see if what is in the notes fits with those pricipals..or if you know "what" to look for on a video, you can learn.............I would say that it is not possible unless you have experience with a qualified instructor first so you know what to look for.......and I dont think you can outright substitute traiing with a teacher for video's and notes............but it can, and is being done with success.......this is confirmed whenever someone in this situation visits Sensei in Japan and discovers they are doing it right.

I think we would agree that these techniques are tried and true from centuries on the battlefield..these techniques originated as thought and then troubleshooted and finly field tested.......this was before it could be taught by an instructor.

Notes and vidoes are not the best way..........but they are good supliments. Chris studys any way he can.....and when he shows his findings to instructors up to 15th Dan, his findings are confirmed.

Yo may have a strong opinion on this, and most likely many people agree with you, but that does not make it truth.

With respect,
Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

With all due respect to Don, who are you to say what can and cant be done?

I am saying what I do based on my knowledge and experience with the katas and the teaching methods I have experienced both in America and here in Japan.

And if I don't have a right to say something one way, who has the right to say anything another way?