Your ranking system

[Tengu6]

I am saying what I do based on my knowledge and experience with the katas and the teaching methods I have experienced both in America and here in Japan.

And if I don't have a right to say something one way, who has the right to say anything another way?

Not saying you dont have the right to say your opinoin, just what qualifies you to say it as absolute fact as opposed to saying "in my opinoin..." or "I find that....." You stated that your opinion is based on what YOU do here and in Japan.......does not mean that someone else may find differently.

Your opinion is always welcome as far as I am concerned........by listening to your opinions I may find that mine are wrong.

With Respect,
Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

Well Markk, I state things as fact because from where I sit, they are facts. They also reflect the statements of what I hear from Japanese experts on the matter who do not state things as their opinion, but as facts just as I did.

I have experienced what you feel to be a valid way of learning the kata, and I have also trained under qualified instructors who knew the kata on a weekly basis as I described. To me, there is no comparison. You cannot learn the kata from seminars, videos and especially notes. I have experienced that, and I have experienced being the uke for a teacher holding menkyo kaiden in the art showing the kata, and then coming back after a while and learning it again for correction.

You can learn a lot from training in the kata at a seminar, especially if you learn it like Hatsumi teaches it with a lot of time taken to explore various aspects of it. But you do not learn the kata qua kata. There are certain things you can teach with a small group over an extended period of time that you cannot with a large group for a weekend. You have to accept your limitations and adapt to the medium as best you can. But if you want the full impact of the kata as they were meant to be transmitted, you have to learn them by that method- and they were not transmitted by notes.

 

[Tengu6]

I wonder why Hatsumi has stated that he has continued to learn from Takamatsu for 0ver 30 years since his passing. He has stated that he reads and rereads his notes and personal letters and finds that they continue to teach him to this day, in fact not only do they teach him, but they mean different things as he progresses.......all from the same writtings. Perhaps Hatsumi sensei is unaware of your facts.

Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

I wonder why Hatsumi has stated that he has continued to learn from Takamatsu for 0ver 30 years since his passing. He has stated that he reads and rereads his notes and personal letters and finds that they continue to teach him to this day, in fact not only do they teach him, but they mean different things as he progresses.......all from the same writtings. Perhaps Hatsumi sensei is unaware of your facts.

Markk Bush

Because Hatsumi went through personal training on a one-on- one basis for 15 years before he went through his notes and letters.

What we are discussing is the complete opposite.

 

[Tengu6]

Because Hatsumi went through personal training on a one-on- one basis for 15 years before he went through his notes and letters.

I have been training for 11, in 4 more I will be able to use my notes?

What we are discussing is the complete opposite.

No it isn't, I said that I believe it could be done if one had the proper instruction and knew what to look for and how to work through it. I also stated it was the the best or preferred way..........but a possibility none the less.

Markk Bush

 

[Jay Bell]

The bit that bothers me here is the fact that the "group" is going off of ego-ist instinct. While those who know (Don in Japan) and trying to be up front and dispell such nonsense.

The amount of teachers that teach off of notes...with no background as to said notes, save for two weeks a year, and leave their students stunted. If that's where you'd like to roam, then so be it. But you are *NOT* playing the game as you'd like to imagine it.

Get real with your training. Videos and notes won't do you anything. That's fact...no matter how much of a prodigy you imagine yourself to be.

 

[Tengu6]

The bit that bothers me here is the fact that the "group" is going off of ego-ist instinct. While those who know (Don in Japan) and trying to be up front and dispell such nonsense.

The amount of teachers that teach off of notes...with no background as to said notes, save for two weeks a year, and leave their students stunted. If that's where you'd like to roam, then so be it. But you are *NOT* playing the game as you'd like to imagine it.

Get real with your training. Videos and notes won't do you anything. That's fact...no matter how much of a prodigy you imagine yourself to be.

Arent you projecting quite a bit into this? Ego-ist instinct? Those who know? Know what? I hav enever heard of Don before I saw this board. Ed Martin, Jack Hoban, Bud Malmstrom, Shiraishi.I know them and have trained with them.......While I respect Don and imagine he has great skills....I have found his beliefs to differ with Shihan that I trust and know.

No disrespect meant Don, none at all. I do agree with Jay that this is getting pointless and I will not continue with this post.

Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

I have been training for 11, in 4 more I will be able to use my notes?

Just speaking as a person, and not a moderator, can we put aside the nasty sarcastic remarks like this and deal with the facts? Basic fact, notes are what you write AFTER you get the physical training.

No it isn't, I said that I believe it could be done if one had the proper instruction and knew what to look for and how to work through it. I also stated it was the the best or preferred way..........but a possibility none the less.

Markk Bush

Define "proper instruction" please. Do you mean someone who has learned the kata as I describe and you merely use the notes to get some familiarization before class? If so, we are on the same page. But if you talking about someone who is just a high ranked instructor with no specific training in the kata, not only no but hell no.

And the big problem I have with your statement is this,

knew what to look for and how to work through it

One of the defining aspects of a student is that they do not know what to look for or the proper way to work through it. You might as well be trying to pick up a surgical textbook without any medical training. You need teachers to show you what is in the kata and what is supposed to be taught in the kata so that you do not overlook or misinterpet important aspects. If you knew what to look for, you would not need to train in the kata. People getting together trying to figure out what is important in the kata is a recipe for going off in some pretty weird directions with your training.

 

[Tengu6]

Just speaking as a person, and not a moderator, can we put aside the nasty sarcastic remarks like this and deal with the facts? Basic fact, notes are what you write AFTER you get the physical training.



Define "proper instruction" please. Do you mean someone who has learned the kata as I describe and you merely use the notes to get some familiarization before class? If so, we are on the same page. But if you talking about someone who is just a high ranked instructor with no specific training in the kata, not only no but hell no.

And the big problem I have with your statement is this,



One of the defining aspects of a student is that they do not know what to look for or the proper way to work through it. You might as well be trying to pick up a surgical textbook without any medical training. You need teachers to show you what is in the kata and what is supposed to be taught in the kata so that you do not overlook or misinterpet important aspects. If you knew what to look for, you would not need to train in the kata. peopel getting together trying to figure out what is important in the kata is a recipe for going off in some pretty weird directions with your training.

I know I said I wasnt going to post on this but I couldnt resist here. Martial arts is a science.......science is taught by instructors......BUT, someone had to experiment and work through the known facts at hand (instruction from qualified Shihan) in order to make progress in uncharted areas. Yes I know these ares have been "charted" but in terms of working on your own (not entirely on your own but with limited access to Shihan).

And yes, we both agree that notes are something you use after you have had instruction. However we may dissagree that, IMO, after some years of instruction (different for everyone) you may be able to work through notes written by others using what you "Know" as a starting point and continually revisiting that point.

One important fact to remember is that god did not put this stuff on the earth with an instructor........it was developed the same exact way I mentioned above. Some died in the process, some did not.

I never said this was as good a way to learn as having direct instruction, and I have stated numerous times that it is in no way an adequate substitute....just that is is simply possible that is all.

I dont want anyone to think that you can just get a few DVD's and earn your Shodan, that is not what i am saying.

Hatsumi also says he cannot teach this, you have to steal it from him.

Anyway, thanks for your insight,
Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

Martial arts is a science.......science is taught by instructors......BUT, someone had to experiment and work through the known facts at hand (instruction from qualified Shihan) in order to make progress in uncharted areas. Yes I know these ares have been "charted" but in terms of working on your own (not entirely on your own but with limited access to Shihan).

But you are trying to go by someone else's chart without any point of common reference. Where the heck are you going to end up like that.

And yes, we both agree that notes are something you use after you have had instruction. However we may dissagree that, IMO, after some years of instruction (different for everyone) you may be able to work through notes written by others using what you "Know" as a starting point and continually revisiting that point.

And if you are wrong, dead wrong, you will not know thatyou are spinning off in weird directions. And it seems a bit egotistical to announce that you are so damn good you are qualified to do this when better people like the Japanese shihan will not train off of other people's notes. All you really seem to be doing by working on what you "know" is deeping you preconceptions and biases. The wonderfull thing about instruction is that it is supposed to be opening us up to new areas and ways. But if you only work on what you "know" then there seems to be little use for it as compared to staying with things you have been taught in person.

One important fact to remember is that god did not put this stuff on the earth with an instructor........it was developed the same exact way I mentioned above. Some died in the process, some did not.

And if you are wrong, your students will die. People developed the kata after their bitter experience to pass along in a certain way. How the heck are you going to gain that same experience? Playing with it in a dojo? If you have killed a person in unarmed combat, maybe you are in a position to talk about developing the kata as you describe. As for me, it all seems egotistical to compare oneself with the guys who paid for this stuff in blood.

I never said this was as good a way to learn as having direct instruction, and I have stated numerous times that it is in no way an adequate substitute....just that is is simply possible that is all.

And if Hatsumi felt it was possible, he would probably tell us so. He might even come out with official notes for us to follow. And he would not be making all the comments he does about how even videos can't capture the whole essence of what he is doing.

 

[Tengu6]

We seem to be mis communicating. I agree with what you are saying, I must not be communicating my point well. I certainly dont think I am so good that I can do what the Shihan in Japan cant or would never attempt.


I imagine we could go back and forth all day to no avail and I see no point in that. I have no need to change your mind.

Markk Bush

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I was Talking to one of my Instructors last night and he made two points.

1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down?

2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject. If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that. But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else. Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here? And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week. Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.

I have seen so many people in this art that devote themselves entirely to this art that when they look up later on then discover that thay have allowed the best parts of life to pass them by. Most of the time, they are left in a ruined state of mind. Or, when I look at someone that has done that, all I see is that they have martial experience that they may or may not be able to use. There are a whole bunch of us over here that are committed to sharing knowledge and what we have learned, those who chose not to share are quickly becoming the dinosaurs as we call them, and no more use to us than a pile of bones in a museum. Yep, the dinosaurs lived and were a terrible formidable animal, but where is it now?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down?

First off, the scrolls are utterly and completely useless for anyone who hasn't received training in the techniques written down therein. They are written in that manner on purpose.

Secondly, Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu sensei for 15 years starting 1957. By then he was already a high ranking budo practicioner with both menkyo kaiden in a number of koryu as well as dan ranks in several gendai budo. This means he probably had pretty good control of his body from the beginning.

Thirdly, he trained pretty much every week for two or three days full time each week. That in between 40 and 50 weeks a year should equal about 100 full days of training a year. The training dosage of most Bujinkan people nowadays can hardly be compared to that.

2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject.

Because those are meant to be studied AFTER one has received proper training.

If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that.

Have you been to Japan yourself? And if so, have you tried to write down the specifics of each class? Couldn't have left much time for training...

But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else.

That, like excessive note taking, is reserved for what we call "kata collectors".

Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here? And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week. Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.

There are other people who are most likely willing and capable to do that.

I have seen so many people in this art that devote themselves entirely to this art that when they look up later on then discover that thay have allowed the best parts of life to pass them by.

I don't quite think I'm following you here.

Most of the time, they are left in a ruined state of mind. Or, when I look at someone that has done that, all I see is that they have martial experience that they may or may not be able to use.

Surely you're not suggesting that a regurgitated or "made easy" version of budo taijutsu would make it more str33t applicable? Sure, there are people who only do what they've been told without practicing with insight, but more often than not that is what happens when people focus too much on memorizing kata.

There are a whole bunch of us over here that are committed to sharing knowledge and what we have learned, those who chose not to share are quickly becoming the dinosaurs as we call them, and no more use to us than a pile of bones in a museum. Yep, the dinosaurs lived and were a terrible formidable animal, but where is it now?

Nobody has "chosen" to withhold any kind of information in the Bujinkan, except with the case of Hatsumi sensei and ninjutsu, but that wouldn't have been the case of people's taijutsu was good enough. IMHO there are far too many people in the Bujinkan and in the rest of the martial arts community who are too eager to teach instead of keeping on learning. If you want to get real good, it's going to take time like a *****. It's been that way for over 1000 years now and I seriously doubt it's going to change.

 

[Don Roley]

I was Talking to one of my Instructors last night and he made two points.

1 as mark has stated that Hatsumi Sensei trained with takamatsu for 15 years. There is only so much you can cram into 15 years of study. No matter what anyone says. The body must always catchup with knowlwdge. If one could not learn from the scrolls, why is the kata, techniques, etc. even bothered to be written down?

Reference and memory retention, not instruction. Have you not heard how Hatsumi has said that certain things were written down in wrong or criptic ways to not allow those not versed in the physical aspects to understand what is going on?

2 If there was never any way of learning other than with a qualified instructor, then why would Hatsumi Sensei even bother to make video's of the Ryu, Taikai's, daikomyosai's, and not to mention the several books he has put out on the subject.

Reference and memory retention. If a qualified teacher was not needed, why would there have been so many teachers?

If people have been to japan and were bringing the knowledge back as I believe they are supposed to, there would probably have been no need to do any of that. But the fact is people are selfish and want to hoard Knowlwdge to make themselves look big or more worthy than anybody else. Don, I dont know you, but how many times have you came over here and announced you are going to have a seminar to help us over here?

Let me see if I get this straight, I am somehow responsible for your not knowing kata? Maybe someday I will move back to the states and start teaching. But I have a few years to get a lot, lot better first. I tend to think that if you are going to teach people something they will be relying on to save their life, you have the responsibility to make sure you know the subject matter as damn well as you can.

And if you did bother, why dont you do this and teach one kata for the whole three days or a week.

I do not know if even that will work. And I would rather teach the ten chi jin since there seems to be so many people that do not know it correctly or completely.

Some of us have lives, families, jobs etc, which makes it impossible to go there and live. There are more important things in life to me than martial arts.

Same here. But we deal with the hand we are given and accept our limitations. If we do not know something, we should not teach it. If we can't get to the training, we work on what we do know. Complaining that we are too busy to learn something correctly and saying that it somehow gives us the right to do as we please just plains baffles me. You say there are things more important than martial arts and I agree with you, but why are you using that as an excuse to do what you like in martial arts?

If you dropped out due to family comitments, then I would understand. But if you say you can only teach your students only stuff you got from notes because you are too busy I have to ask why you are teaching at all. I see people who teach as having a very great burden. I cannot imagine taking the trust people have in you and your knowledge lightly. They are relying on your knowledge to perhaps save their life. If you have not bothered to learn something completely, fully and the way it was supposed to be taught, then I think you should just decline to teach it and save that task for other instructors.