Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news
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Once or twice maybe, but she won double gold for four or five years in a row. But even if she wasn't like that, I still wouldn't have any problems with promoting a 6 year old, or even younger. There is no minimum age requirement for poom promotions under the Kukkiwon Rules and Regulations.
I think they are aware of the message that is being sent, which is: "1st Poom is not a big deal." Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank. What do I care if someone else promotes a six year old is a 1st Poom?
To me, poom is a low level. But then again, 4th or 5th Dan are relatively low levels too....
puunui let me ask this of you, so you would not have a problem with 22 year old Masters. Because at that age they would be 3rd by the time the transfer from poom to dan at 15 and 19 could be a Master with the KKW. I understand I believe what you are saying but do not know if I complete agree with Masters at 20.
I don't have any problem with a 19 or 20 year old Kukkiwon 4th Dan. According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are Masters, so we could have 15 year olds using that term. ATC's instructor is 24 or 25 and I think a Kukkiwon 5th Dan.
25 and well respected by Masters his senior by 20, 30 years and up. His father is also well respected as is his Uncle. His pedigree is pretty top notch. He has been Instructing since 14. He started assisting at the age of 8.
I am not say that all 8 year old can or should do this. Even he will tell you that it was hard and he was scared, but his father is old school and was (is) one tough cookie. The stories he tells us I would not put my kids though and I consider myself pretty tough.
Any organisation is entitled to set its own requirements and standards for Black Belt.
Although I guess having a standard that a six year old can achieve raises questions about that standard. Devalues the Black belt throughout the whole organisaiton.
Although I guess having a standard that a six year old can achieve raises questions about that standard. Devalues the Black belt throughout the whole organisaiton.
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Ummm....never mind. 
TaekwondoDad
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Ok, my better, perhaps best judgment is to avoid this thread, but no one ever said I used good, let alone better or best judgment.
My daughter started training at age 3. Last February, at age 6, she tested for and earned her Black Belt.
I understand there are those who believe no one under (pick an age, 18, 20, 16, 10) should earn their first poom. Perhaps this is a discussion that needs to be had within the Taekwondo community. It is a shame that it cannot be had without insulting and denegrating entire orgnizations, masters/grandmasters, children or parents.
When my wife and I signed our daughter up for TKD, we knew very little about it and imagined it would take her years, if ever, to achieve the rank of Black Belt. She enjoyed the classes and we could see positive benefits in her coordination, strength, concentration and other areas.
To those who say parents are only looking to teach the kids discipline or respect and where are the parents in teaching this, in our case our daughter has never had a problem with discipline or respect and where was I, her parent, while she was training? Sitting in a chair at the edge of the mat encouraging her and learning all I could to assist her in her endeavor. You see, her Taekwondo has become part of my parenting plan/strategy/technique. It is a tool I use in raising my daughter just as I am a tool her master uses in teaching her TKD.
As for those who say a 6 year old cannot memorize 1 form, my daughter has knows all her Taeguk forms as well as Koryo. She assists in class, works one on one with lower belts and has been sought out by adults for help with their forms.
She has also competed locally, regionally and nationally and won multiple gold medals for forms and sparring. Not once has she been handed a medal for being the only one in her division. She has defeated others her age and rank at each tournament. She was scheduled to compete at the USAT ESPN/Rise event and we cancelled our trip when we learned she would not have a match.
My daughter loves Taekwondo and her masters. She trains 1-2 hours a day 4-5 days a week during the school year. Over her breaks she trains 7 days a week 2-3 hours a day. We have seen how her stamina, strength, concentration and coordination compare to others her age and older who are starting TKD. She has worked hard, tested and earned her rank.
For those that ask what young Black Belts have to look forward to, hopefully a lifetime of participating and growing in TKD!
Can she beat up a full grown adult male? Of course not. Can she do everything an adult black belt can do? Of course not. Even considering these things, I don't see how her achievements lessen or demean anyone else's.
The fact that children are training is a fact of life right now. The fact that the Kukkiwon allows it and sanctions young Black Belts is obvious. The bylaws allow for 4th degree pooms. Do the math and you would need to start with a 10 year old black belt to get a 16 year old 4th degree.
Perhaps there is a need to distinguish between children and adults. I would have thought poom-v Dan did this, but seeing as how both are referred to as Black Belts, perhaps more is needed.
A constructive dialog about how to encourage youth to participate in Taekwondo, how to offer them advancement perhaps on a different track could lead to growth and strengthening of TKD. Complaining that kids ruin the sport, despoil the title and insulting organizations, masters, young taekwondoins and parents only hurts an already divided house.
Finally, I have been surprised by the number of people that ask if my daughter will continue with TKD now that she has earned her Black Belt. Her master has taught that Black Belt, first poom or Dan, is the BEGINNING, not the end. This discussion seems to lose sight of that.
My daughter started training at age 3. Last February, at age 6, she tested for and earned her Black Belt.
I understand there are those who believe no one under (pick an age, 18, 20, 16, 10) should earn their first poom. Perhaps this is a discussion that needs to be had within the Taekwondo community. It is a shame that it cannot be had without insulting and denegrating entire orgnizations, masters/grandmasters, children or parents.
When my wife and I signed our daughter up for TKD, we knew very little about it and imagined it would take her years, if ever, to achieve the rank of Black Belt. She enjoyed the classes and we could see positive benefits in her coordination, strength, concentration and other areas.
To those who say parents are only looking to teach the kids discipline or respect and where are the parents in teaching this, in our case our daughter has never had a problem with discipline or respect and where was I, her parent, while she was training? Sitting in a chair at the edge of the mat encouraging her and learning all I could to assist her in her endeavor. You see, her Taekwondo has become part of my parenting plan/strategy/technique. It is a tool I use in raising my daughter just as I am a tool her master uses in teaching her TKD.
As for those who say a 6 year old cannot memorize 1 form, my daughter has knows all her Taeguk forms as well as Koryo. She assists in class, works one on one with lower belts and has been sought out by adults for help with their forms.
She has also competed locally, regionally and nationally and won multiple gold medals for forms and sparring. Not once has she been handed a medal for being the only one in her division. She has defeated others her age and rank at each tournament. She was scheduled to compete at the USAT ESPN/Rise event and we cancelled our trip when we learned she would not have a match.
My daughter loves Taekwondo and her masters. She trains 1-2 hours a day 4-5 days a week during the school year. Over her breaks she trains 7 days a week 2-3 hours a day. We have seen how her stamina, strength, concentration and coordination compare to others her age and older who are starting TKD. She has worked hard, tested and earned her rank.
For those that ask what young Black Belts have to look forward to, hopefully a lifetime of participating and growing in TKD!
Can she beat up a full grown adult male? Of course not. Can she do everything an adult black belt can do? Of course not. Even considering these things, I don't see how her achievements lessen or demean anyone else's.
The fact that children are training is a fact of life right now. The fact that the Kukkiwon allows it and sanctions young Black Belts is obvious. The bylaws allow for 4th degree pooms. Do the math and you would need to start with a 10 year old black belt to get a 16 year old 4th degree.
Perhaps there is a need to distinguish between children and adults. I would have thought poom-v Dan did this, but seeing as how both are referred to as Black Belts, perhaps more is needed.
A constructive dialog about how to encourage youth to participate in Taekwondo, how to offer them advancement perhaps on a different track could lead to growth and strengthening of TKD. Complaining that kids ruin the sport, despoil the title and insulting organizations, masters, young taekwondoins and parents only hurts an already divided house.
Finally, I have been surprised by the number of people that ask if my daughter will continue with TKD now that she has earned her Black Belt. Her master has taught that Black Belt, first poom or Dan, is the BEGINNING, not the end. This discussion seems to lose sight of that.
While I don't often comment on other school's policies, I have to say I firmly believe a six year old cannot be a black belt. They can get one, sure, but to be a black belt is a different thing altogether and a six year old can't do it IMO.
I never understood that sort of rhetoric, "be" a black belt. A black belt is only a piece of cloth which you wrap around your waist. Why would you want to be that? I would rather just be myself. That is really all you can be.
It's exactly what you make of it.
I guess by "be" a black belt, I mean to justify the rank. To justify the rank, I believe one has to be able to lead a class, train with students, etc. Six year old children cannot do this and in my experience, very very few have enough motor skills and coordination to get the techniques right to what I'd consider an acceptable black belt level.
I guess by "be" a black belt, I mean to justify the rank. To justify the rank, I believe one has to be able to lead a class, train with students, etc. Six year old children cannot do this and in my experience, very very few have enough motor skills and coordination to get the techniques right to what I'd consider an acceptable black belt level.
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I was going to leave this completely alone, because I really don't have a dog in this fight. But, I'm bored so here goes...
Can folks argue that the KKW is simply a money making machine? I suppose they could and the KKW themselves have provided some pretty good ammo in recent years.
Can folks argue that this instructor is simply selling the art of TKD as a commercial enterprise? I suppose they could, and many do even if this one isn't.
Can folks argue that the KKW standards just aren't what they should be? I suppose they could as well.
Can folks argue that a 6 year old BB cheapens the art as a whole? I suppose that is the point some are trying to make here in this thread.
But to all that, here's the real question; what is a black belt anyway? Beyond just a piece of fabric. What's it suppose to 'mean'. Well, here's the kicker...it doesn't really mean anything. Is there;
So the main question for those that are less than enthused about a 6 year old KKW BB...by what stardard are you judging. And hey, I'm not saying its right or good or wise. I'm just looking at the big picture. Belts began with Kano Jigoro for sport competitions. They were white, brown and black. Now we have every color of the rainbow and stripes and tape and whatever else. What is the standard? How much is too much? How little is too little? How young is too young?
And by what standard to you make the judegement?
And if you don't like it...what are you going to do about it?
Can folks argue that the KKW is simply a money making machine? I suppose they could and the KKW themselves have provided some pretty good ammo in recent years.
Can folks argue that this instructor is simply selling the art of TKD as a commercial enterprise? I suppose they could, and many do even if this one isn't.
Can folks argue that the KKW standards just aren't what they should be? I suppose they could as well.
Can folks argue that a 6 year old BB cheapens the art as a whole? I suppose that is the point some are trying to make here in this thread.
But to all that, here's the real question; what is a black belt anyway? Beyond just a piece of fabric. What's it suppose to 'mean'. Well, here's the kicker...it doesn't really mean anything. Is there;
- any universal rule for the minumum age of a BB?
- any universal rule for the minimum time in training to achieve a BB?
- any universal rule for the minimum time to progress from one BB grade to another?
So the main question for those that are less than enthused about a 6 year old KKW BB...by what stardard are you judging. And hey, I'm not saying its right or good or wise. I'm just looking at the big picture. Belts began with Kano Jigoro for sport competitions. They were white, brown and black. Now we have every color of the rainbow and stripes and tape and whatever else. What is the standard? How much is too much? How little is too little? How young is too young?
And by what standard to you make the judegement?
And if you don't like it...what are you going to do about it?
My take on your questions.
Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.
One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.
But isn't that exactly what the other guy who promoted that six year old to Kukkiwon 1st Poom doing as well? Why is he wrong and you right, especially since the rank recommendation was approved by the Kukkiwon? Doesn't the Kukkiwon set the standard for who does or does not get promoted?
Well, I justify my rank to myself and the man who promotes me. My students will justify their ranks to themselves and me.
What I said above is what I want in myself as a black belt (Monday) and what I will want in my eventual black belt students.
Yes, the KKW sets the standard, but obviously they don't review it carefully. Like I said, with a recommendation from an instructor I think my dog could get a black belt from them. Actually, my papers went through before my test for the purpose of ceremony.
Well, I don't think he's running it the way I feel it should be run, obviously. He's running it as a money factory as near as I can figure. But hey, maybe he feels this kid is a justifiable black belt. Maybe she is a justifiable black belt, I don't know.
Let me ask you a question, now. Do you think KKW blackbelts should be able to teach classes? Do you think a 6 year old can lead a class?
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