WTF is this

[chrispillertkd]

I have KKW Dan rank, so I guess I have... sort of...
I actually do know the KKW curriculum, though my personal preference remains training with the Chang Hon Tul. That may well be simply because that was my earliest training, but nonetheless I prefer them.

Could be. I learned a few of the KKW poomse in college and found that I really prefered the ITF tul, which I had already known. I was training at a KKW/WTF club at the time and they were fairly in line with KKW standards so I actually was doig the Taeguks and Koryo with the correct stances, blocking preparations, etc. I just prefered the ITF method of executing techniques.

In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.

Is the KKW funded by the ROK government at all? If so it's conceivable that prices could be kept low. If not then yes they'd have to raise prices, at least somewhat.

And therein lies the problem. Any attempt at enforcing standards from on high would result in schools telling the KKW to go stuff themselves and either joining another org or forming their own. Look at all the schools now that, despite their KKW affiliation, issue in-house Dan ranks to their baby black belts so they can wear a real BB instead of a poom belt.

But, ultimately, that might not be a bad thing. If the goal is to get and maintain high standards then having people who don't meet those standards leave isn't necessarily bad. If the goal is simply high membership then yes, it must be avoided. I think the KKW attitude lies somewhere in between. They want people to adhere to their standards but they also want as many people as they can get to be certified by them. Whether they have chosen a good way to meet these goals is a matter of debate and each person's opinion on the matter.

Edit: If the KKW is interested in technical standardization then they would do well, IMHO, to set the bar if not high at least at a medium level and expect people to meet it. If the KKW is more interested on unity amongst Taekwondoin then they should at least explain why unity is itself desireable and, more to the point, what they mean by unity in the first place. Can a martial art have any sort of meaningful unity without a technical standard that the majority of its members meet? If it's just a matter of being united to be united it then becomes a matter of what people are going to get out of that. Personally, I'd feel much stronger ties to a certain Kwan than to a huge organiztion, but that's just me.

What is required to obtain and retain that certification?

Actually, not too much. You have to attend an International Instructors Course and pay the fee to be certified. And be a IV dan.

Back in the day IIC's were longer and I personally wish they would go back to being a week in length. But the fact is the IIC's were longer when less people were familiar with the ITF's technical standards. You were having people who had never trained with Gen. Choi or any of his instructors attending and the IIC's were used to get them on the same page for techniques, learn to perform the tul correctly, etc. Now it is acceptable to have students as low as 2nd gup attend what is, really, a course for instructors. And these are often students that train regularly uder instructors or Masters (in the ITF that means you're a minimum of VII dan) who themselves have attended many IIC's. In other words, the technical standard now is much higher than it was in the early 70's. My own instructor, for example, has attended IIC's under Gen. Choi as well as with his son GM Choi, Jung Hwa and is very clear about what he wants and doesn't want as far as techniques go. Speaking as a non-member, it seems to me like the KKW is trying to do now what the ITF was trying to do in the early 70's. They're just on a slower time table.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So looking at this thread as well as others where both KKW and non-KKW members have commented, I see the following;

• An organization that has stated guidelines, but the guidelines aren't necessarily followed either on an organizational level or individual school level.
• Quality of practitioners varies considerably.
• Time to achieve a Dan varies considerably
• The organization allows non-KKW practitioners to join regardless of whether they know the curriculum.
• The organization allows skips in Dan rank, up to six as long as the highest three are paid for.

My question is what prompts someone to be a member of such organization? This isn't a slam, it is a legitmate question. Why would you wish to be associated with an organization that has mostly children in Korea as members? As noted, some of questionable quality. Why would you wish to be in an organization that allows those that haven't trained as you to join? Using the guise of 'unity' is a red flag. Unity for what? If they're no standards that are enforced...if quality is like a roller coaster, if TIG is subjective at best then what 'unity' are you trying to achieve? I'm sorry, but 'unity' sounds an lot like a money grab. Would that be an out-of-bounds consideration? I suppose if you want to compete at a certain level it is necessary? If so, how many of the KKW members here on the board compete at that level?

I dunno. I just don't see the attraction.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So looking at this thread as well as others where both KKW and non-KKW members have commented, I see the following;

• An organization that has stated guidelines, but the guidelines aren't necessarily followed either on an organizational level or individual school level.
• Quality of practitioners varies considerably.
• Time to achieve a Dan varies considerably
• The organization allows non-KKW practitioners to join regardless of whether they know the curriculum.
• The organization allows skips in Dan rank, up to six as long as the highest three are paid for.

My question is what prompts someone to be a member of such organization? This isn't a slam, it is a legitmate question. Why would you wish to be associated with an organization that has mostly children in Korea as members? As noted, some of questionable quality. Why would you wish to be in an organization that allows those that haven't trained as you to join? Using the guise of 'unity' is a red flag. Unity for what? If they're no standards that are enforced...if quality is like a roller coaster, if TIG is subjective at best then what 'unity' are you trying to achieve? I'm sorry, but 'unity' sounds an lot like a money grab. Would that be an out-of-bounds consideration? I suppose if you want to compete at a certain level it is necessary? If so, how many of the KKW members here on the board compete at that level?

I dunno. I just don't see the attraction.

I suspect that for most people, the answer is simple:
That's the rank the school they joined gives out. I really doubt that many people pick their school based on which org issues the certificates.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I suspect that for most people, the answer is simple:
That's the rank the school they joined gives out. I really doubt that many people pick their school based on which org issues the certificates.

Yes, you may very well be right.

 

[WaterGal]

the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc. You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?". It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand" of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd". As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.

I'll be honest, I've never heard anyone who's not already a martial artist say something like that. Usually people come in and go "so you guys do karate, right?". It doesn't help that the TSD school here in town claims to do TKD, and the other TSD school in the other town says they do karate. And we've had a few unhappy students/parents from those schools come in, and are confused about why we don't teach the same things and won't honor their rank.

 

[WaterGal]

In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.

Yeah, that's the problem as I see it. I mean, maybe they could just supervise the first one, or one every X years, but it'd still be very expensive for schools, who I'm sure would be expected to pay for it. Another option would where you could report schools that are "black belt mills", and KKW sent someone out to investigate if they have a few complaints, but then you'd have some schools reporting their competitors just to cause them problems, and it'd still be expensive. I'm just not sure what could be done about it.

One idea, though, since I've seen some complaints about giving out rank too quickly, would be for KKW to have some kind of online database where you register all your students at white belt, and then when you send in the dan application, they can check the database to see if it's been a reasonably long time since they started. That wouldn't do anything about low standards, but it would at least keep people from giving someone a black belt after 6 months, and wouldn't be too expensive or difficult for schools.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I don't know that "member" is the right word to use in regard to Kukkiwon. A student is a member of his/her school. You don't really join the Kukkiwon. There are no membership fees collected. You pay for rank/instructor certification and take a test at your school or in Korea.

Kukkiwon's objective is to spread Taekwondo and increase the national prestige through the spread of one of its most popular cultural products. It's not an exclusive organization by any means. They promote taekwondo as an activity for anyone to enjoy. I guess it's a bit like baseball, in that anyone can participate at the lowest level, but the number of people participating at the very highest level is quite small. There is no real need (or possibility) to hold everyone to the same standard in this regard.

As far as being a "money grab," I'm betting there are far worse offenders than Kukkiwon when it comes to certifications. Kukkiwon's fees are fairly reasonable, in my opinion. I would worry more about a money grab from an organization headed/owned by one man or a small group of men.

Anyway, as I think Dirty Dog said, I'm fairly sure that the majority of new students aren't joining a school because of the org the school belongs to.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I see that you're in Korea. I have a question in regards to KKW certification fees. In the U.S. a first Dan is $85 USD IIRC. Keeping in mind the difference in currency, is it equivelent for a child/adult in Korea?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc. You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?". It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand" of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd". As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.

I don't know if that is a regional phenomenon or no.

I have never heard anyone outside of the art say that they were thinking of doing a particular type of taekwondo in this area. On the occasions that I have been asked about the art in general or about a specific school, when I mention that there are different organizations, I ususally get a response of, "Really?"

It is only within the past decade or so that I have heard non-practitioners specifically calling it taekwondo instead of karate. From what I can tell, this pretty much the case in other parts of the US (I'll leave it to others in other parts of the US to comment there), so at least here, I wouldn't call KKW a brand at all.