wtf and itf
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Well there is no better it is strickly up to the instructor, the ITF has spit and they are in three fanction as of right now and the Kukkiwon nor WTF is having IRS problems. You see there are no WTF certificates so wht would they rell you this?
What is the difference? Basically two schools of thought I agree with Terry's post. My two cents- ITF TKD is - to my knowledge still Shotokanish and founded by the late General Choi. WTF is sport oriented TKD. Right now they are both in disaray. Like Terry said!
agreed!!
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
is your instructor at least a 2nd dan?
then that is all you need.
trust your knowledge, and your instructors opinion of how well you have mastered the material.
What diploma mill yours comes from makes NO DIFFERENCE at all.
and dont let anyone tell you any different.
It is though the Kukkiwon not the WTF
You would be certified by the Kukkiwon, not the WTF. And you need at least a 4th Dan to sign for you; a 2nd Dan cannot officially recommend you for Kukkiwon promotion. The Kukkiwon is undergoing reorganization, but will most likely work itself out. May take a little longer, but things will clear up.
dancingalone
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I believe a dyed-in-the-wool Shotokan person would be aghast to see such a comparison made. Shotokan people don't do sinewave for starters and their stances are generally much lower. I'm speaking of the JKA version.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
An ITFer might not be aghast at the comparison since Gen. Choi was a 2nd dan in Shotokan but ITF Taekwon-Do as it stands today is very different from Shotokan.
I trained at a WTF club for a couple of years in college and there are some aspects of WTF Taekwon-Do that are more Shotokanish than ITF Taekwon-Do, IMHO. WTF sparring rules and some aspects of the Taeguk poomse differentiate WTF Taekwon-Do from Shotokan, but similar things can easily be said about ITF Taekwon-Do.
Pax,
Chris
dancingalone
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Yes, the general was a 2nd dan in Shotokan. That said, the final version of his art as described in his Encyclopedia is hardly textbook Shotokan karate at all. Aside from the sinewave and stance variances, just consider the Shotokan side snap kick. It's a world of difference from the more powerful version found in Korean MA. There are many more examples. I wouldn't call ITF taekwondo anything close at all to Shotokan despite its roots.
I agree.
Again, I agree... although I know several people who practice both Ch'ang H'on (ITF) TKD and Shotokan, and can point out as many similarities as differences. I have a copy of the original English version of the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, and it has Shotokan katas included in it... and some of them are amazingly similar to current ITF tuls (or should I say that the other way around, since the katas came first?). Anyway, while they are now separate arts, they have a great deal in common - a comparison that I used in another, similar thread relates them to languages: French and Italian have the same roots, which are easy to see despite their divergence - but neither one of them is Latin.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Yes Shotokan and ITF TKD have many similarities, of course there are differences, but its the similarities you should be looking at, if there were no differences then they would be the same art right?
dancingalone
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Using that line of tack, I'm afraid you could say the same about TKD and jeet kune do or TKD and wing chun. They both use kicks and punches, right? Likewise, a chimpanzee shares 98% of the same DNA sequences as does a human, but in the end it's a chimpanzee.
From my perspective if you are interested in practicing unique fighting systems rather than than a generic one, as I am, it behooves you to understand the precise differences between fighting systems. Otherwise, you are not practicing shotokan karate-do nor are you practicing ITF taekwondo. You'd be doing something else entirely.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
The founder was a 2nd dan shotokan black belt and if you look at the patterns in both arts there are some identical movements among other obvious copies that ITF has taken from Shotokan. If stances are lower and theres no sinewave so? That somehow makes a difference to the fact that the General took his knowledge of Shotokan and created patterns and training methods based on that? The poster earlier stated that ITF was closer to Shotokan than to WTF ,this is true in many respects. He wasnt saying ITF looks identical to shotokan, it certainly does not. Im an instructor in ITF and I freely admit our roots, there is no shame that we are basically a Korean karate, I prefer it to the sport style that has evolved out of our style. I prefer the tradition and martial way that comes from Karate.
What are you talking about when you say generic and unique and not practicing one over the other? Missed your point there.
What are you talking about when you say generic and unique and not practicing one over the other? Missed your point there.
dancingalone
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From my perspective saying ITF taekwondo is like shotokan is way, way off base. The inherent strategies and principles of movement are very different and I can't believe anyone who has seriously studied both would bother saying the two are similar. I guess you could but only on such a broad level that the comparison would be meaningless hence my analogies to the chimpanzee DNA or to TKD/wing chun.
I pay close attention to stylistic details, having practiced a number of different styles but firmly setting on goju-ryu karate. A lot of people think a kick is a kick or a punch is a punch. To me, it's not. Different styles do things differently because they differ inherently in terms of their goals. Why doesn't classical shorin-ryu karate emphasize hip twist for example? That is what I mean by generic. We had a discussion on MT previously where some thought it was useful to practice different sets of TKD patterns at the same time, such as the Chang Hon along with the Tae Geuk. I believe it's useless to do so, since you likely will be performing both sets of patterns the same way in the same style, which would beg the question why not just practice your own pattern set and get good at it rather than engaging in a Quixotic quest.
I'll give one more hint to the differences with Shotokan and ITF and then I'm done. Consider the use of tension within Shotokan karate to add power to one's strikes. Does ITF taekwondo have it?
I pay close attention to stylistic details, having practiced a number of different styles but firmly setting on goju-ryu karate. A lot of people think a kick is a kick or a punch is a punch. To me, it's not. Different styles do things differently because they differ inherently in terms of their goals. Why doesn't classical shorin-ryu karate emphasize hip twist for example? That is what I mean by generic. We had a discussion on MT previously where some thought it was useful to practice different sets of TKD patterns at the same time, such as the Chang Hon along with the Tae Geuk. I believe it's useless to do so, since you likely will be performing both sets of patterns the same way in the same style, which would beg the question why not just practice your own pattern set and get good at it rather than engaging in a Quixotic quest.
I'll give one more hint to the differences with Shotokan and ITF and then I'm done. Consider the use of tension within Shotokan karate to add power to one's strikes. Does ITF taekwondo have it?
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Eh, I understand, you are alot more serious about the technical differences among martial arts than I am. If I see the same movement done slightly differently in 2 different martial arts I dont think "wow those are SO different", instead I think "holy cow thats so similar!". I dont expect arts to have many similarities at all so when they do its always a surprise.
dancingalone
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Good catch! It does seem inconsistent, doesn't it? I can have both opinions depending on context. ITF TKD and TSD OK. ITF TKD and Shotokan not so much. I'll expound further when I get a chance.
dancingalone, first of all, I have read everyone of your posts. I must say, I do agree with most all of them.
Respectufully, I am a Taekwondo'ist first. Any form I choose to practice is of value, to me. I do not consider it "quixotic" You keep mentioning the word "generic" As if people are not capable of comprehension of more than one set, and the nuance pertainig to that particular poomse......its still taekwondo poomse- no matter the family of poomse it belongs to.
Granted, its not for everyone. Some people have trouble with just one form.
Then you have those folks who have the gift with poomse. I think that each MA'st has their on specialty witihin the art they practice.
It would seem you have expermented with different arts...and settled on on, I beleive- Gojo Ryu. Thats great!
Respectufully, I am a Taekwondo'ist first. Any form I choose to practice is of value, to me. I do not consider it "quixotic" You keep mentioning the word "generic" As if people are not capable of comprehension of more than one set, and the nuance pertainig to that particular poomse......its still taekwondo poomse- no matter the family of poomse it belongs to.
Granted, its not for everyone. Some people have trouble with just one form.
Then you have those folks who have the gift with poomse. I think that each MA'st has their on specialty witihin the art they practice.
It would seem you have expermented with different arts...and settled on on, I beleive- Gojo Ryu. Thats great!
