WTF 7th Dan?

[Earl Weiss]

12/12 BB Mag.

Ibrahim Ahmed: "Nonth degree Black Belt in Korea Tae Kwon Do Han Moo Kwan and a 7th degree Black Belt In the World Taekwondo Federation..."

So, as we know WTF does not award rank. Tjhought maybe it was an editing error. So I checked his website:
http://www.worldmartialartscollege.com/?page_id=14

Same thing.

Is he KKW? (Juust a poor Choice of words?)

Also searched KTA Han Moo Kwan. Not much out there about him other than his own site.

Any more info on him and Han Moo Kwan?

 

[terryl965]

Master Weiss poor choice of words, the WTF does not reward black belts. It should say KKW and as far as Han Moo Kwan never heard of them and can't find anything about them.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, Han Moo Kwan is an organization/style of taekwando. Quick google search gave me these:
http://www.hanmookwan.org/
http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/profile/person?personId=182576135&targetid=profile
http://www.hanmookwan-svl.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Moo_Kwan
http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html
I dont have time to research more since im going to class now, but this should give you a pretty good start. Also saw that the first website has a 'related links' section that you might want to check out.

 

[ATC]

Yeah, he is Kukkiwon certified. It states it on his bio page but then goes right back to stating that he is WTF certified. Just poor choice of words.

It is because of Grand Master Dr Ibraham Ahmed’s desire to assist other martial artists around the world in 1977 the World Martial Arts College was formed. He is 7th Dan Black belt by Kuk Ki Won , 9th Dan by Han Moo Kwan, 9th Dan by league of Grand Masters –Grand Master Dr Ibraham Ahmed is one of the highest ranked Black Belts in the world, 10th Degree Black Belt Founder of the World Martial Arts College.

Awards and Achievements:
1966 Began training under Ali Hussin in Tang Soo Do- ranking equivalent 1st Dan
1969 1st Dan Black Belt Korea Tae Kwon Do Association
1970 2nd Dan Black Belt Korea Tae Kwon Do Association
1971 Opened and began first Tae kwon Do School Dearborn, Michigan
1972 Started US Tae Kwon Do Han Moo Kwan Association
1973 Promoted to 3rd Dan by World Tae Kwon Do Federation
1975 Promoted to 4th Dan World Tae Kwon Do Federation
1977 Established the World Martial Arts College
1978 Promoted to 5th Dan World Tae Kwon Do Federation
1984 Promoted to 6th Dan World Tae Kwon Do Federation
1984 Head Coach Olympic Tae kwon Do Nationals Michigan
1995 Promoted to 7th Dan World Tae Kwon Do Federation

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Han Moo Kwan is one of the original 'second' wave schools, stemming from either Yon Moo Kwan or Jidokwan depending on who's story you wish to believe. The founder, GM LEE is KKW 9th Dan. The largest HMK school in the U.S. as far as I know, is the one in Oklahoma under GM In Hue Won who I 'think' is KKW 8th Dan.

For what its worth, this is the same school that occasionally offers a Hapkido BB after one weekends worth of training i.e. if you have a TKD black belt, take two-days worth of HKD training, pass the test (what can be tested on after two-days?), and the check clears....BAM, you are now a HKD BB. The exact degree of HKD BB depends on your TKD BB rank so I imagine it can be higher than 1st Dan after two-days of training.

I think you can add fries with that as well and maybe super-size for just a little extra $.

 

[Instructor]

I wish the martial arts world had a better business bureau...

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, Han Moo Kwan is an organization/style of taekwando. Quick google search gave me these:
.

My query was not so much alonmg the lines of the Kwan since I di locate sites thru a search. It had more to do with his rank in the Kwan. The sites did not list any relationship with him which meant nothing since they were not comprehensive in nature. If the KKW site verifies rank then that is basis for legitimacy.

 

[rlobrecht]

Yeah, he is Kukkiwon certified. It states it on his bio page but then goes right back to stating that he is WTF certified. Just poor choice of words.

It may be marketing. People associate WTF with taekwondo from the Olympics, plus it's the logo you see on uniforms. You have to be pre-knowledgable to know what Kukkiwon is.

The school I attend used to have a Karate sign out front. The owner said there was a time when people didn't know what taekwondo was, and found that a lot of families were just looking for a school for their kids to do some martial art.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My query was not so much alonmg the lines of the Kwan since I di locate sites thru a search. It had more to do with his rank in the Kwan. The sites did not list any relationship with him which meant nothing since they were not comprehensive in nature. If the KKW site verifies rank then that is basis for legitimacy.

In order to confirm his rank on the KKW site, you'd need to know his FULL name, birthday, and citizenship.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In order to confirm his rank on the KKW site, you'd need to know his FULL name, birthday, and citizenship.

I've often wondered what the usefulness of having the KKW be able to verify rank if this is the amount of information you need. I suppose it's helpful for students to see if their instructors have processed their paperwork but not so much for seeing if the instructor is KKW certified in the first place, IMO.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ATC]

I've often wondered what the usefulness of having the KKW be able to verify rank if this is the amount of information you need. I suppose it's helpful for students to see if their instructors have processed their paperwork but not so much for seeing if the instructor is KKW certified in the first place, IMO.

Pax,

Chris

The instructor cannot promote you via KKW if he or she is not KKW certified 4th Dan at least. So if your are getting a KKW cert from your instructor then he/she is KKW certified. The KKW tracks how many black belts each instructor promotes.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The instructor cannot promote you via KKW if he or she is not KKW certified 4th Dan at least. So if your are getting a KKW cert from your instructor then he/she is KKW certified. The KKW tracks how many black belts each instructor promotes.

Uh, yes, I know. But I have heard of cases where instructors have either not been KKW certified and passed themselves off that way or, related to what I posted before, told students they filed the papaerwork but never did and just issued fake certificates. If the KKW database is just a means to be able to check to see who has what rank that's great. But I don't see it as being all that helpful in the case of a student who is actually trying to check whether or not his instructor is KKW certified. FWIW.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

Many give you BB and have a qualified Master send in the paperwork...

I know several "Masters " who "exaggerate " their rank...allot of 2nd and 3rd degrees claiming 5th...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Many give you BB and have a qualified Master send in the paperwork...

I know several "Masters " who "exaggerate " their rank...allot of 2nd and 3rd degrees claiming 5th...

And this is precisely why it would be nice if the KKW database were a little more usable.

 

[Gorilla]

Yep

 

[DennisBreene]

Is it just me or is this rampant. Admittedly I had a very long hiatus before I got back into the arts but I don't think I've ever seen so many 9th and 10th Dans. It was rare to see a master above 6th Dan 25 yrs ago and I suppose some of that is the result of those individuals continuing to rise in rank, but 10th Dan in my system was almost like the pope. There was only one overseeing the entire style.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Is it just me or is this rampant. Admittedly I had a very long hiatus before I got back into the arts but I don't think I've ever seen so many 9th and 10th Dans. It was rare to see a master above 6th Dan 25 yrs ago and I suppose some of that is the result of those individuals continuing to rise in rank, but 10th Dan in my system was almost like the pope. There was only one overseeing the entire style.

Valid observation. Many arts, unfortunately, have undergone changes. As an example, Uechi Ryu was an art with just one 10th Dan, the founder's son Uechi Kanei Sensei. In the 90's the grandson took over, and as I understand it the system broke into 16 (or more) separate factions as a result. Some reverted to the use of Uechi Ryu's predecessor, Pangainoon. A quick search on the net will show a pletora i.e. Pangainoon, Pangainoon Ryu, Pangainoon Jitsu, Pangainoon Karate etc. Each of course having its own head. TKD is similiar in that there are multiple different factions, each with its own hierarchy. Some factions have multiple 9th and 10th Dans. And of course we have those that claim to have a dozen or more 10th Dans in a dozen or more martial arts.

Sometimes politics get into the mix, sometimes just ego and greed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Admittedly I had a very long hiatus before I got back into the arts but I don't think I've ever seen so many 9th and 10th Dans. It was rare to see a master above 6th Dan 25 yrs ago and I suppose some of that is the result of those individuals continuing to rise in rank, but 10th Dan in my system was almost like the pope. There was only one overseeing the entire style.

Lots happens in 25 year. The snot nosed teen of 15 can become a respected surgeon. Even withh a conservative 5 years per Dan rank, the White Belt becomes a 5th Dan, The Second Dan a 7th. The population of people doing MA in the USA was probably 100 times if not 1000 times greater in the 1970's than in the 1950's.

 

[ATC]

Uh, yes, I know. But I have heard of cases where instructors have either not been KKW certified and passed themselves off that way or, related to what I posted before, told students they filed the papaerwork but never did and just issued fake certificates. If the KKW database is just a means to be able to check to see who has what rank that's great. But I don't see it as being all that helpful in the case of a student who is actually trying to check whether or not his instructor is KKW certified. FWIW.

Pax,

Chris

Yes all that is true. However when the instructor is to send in the paperwork or even do it online now, he or she must also submit said paperwork or online form under their KKW number. We just had testing and we do all cert request online. I get to help with this process and when doing them online, You can see that the Masters account has his KKW Dan number there on each application. The student simply needs to ask to see the Master Dan number and look it up themselves. I know my Master has all his certs framed and hung on his wall for all to see. Very simple for any student to look him up. If any Master has to hide his credentials then this should be a red flag to any student or potential student. In our school even our KKW certified instructors have their certs hanging on the wall as well. If any instructor or Master even gets angry or irritated at the fact that someone asked to see their certs or credentials then this should also be a red flag. But I get what you are saying.

 

[WaterGal]

It may be marketing. People associate WTF with taekwondo from the Olympics, plus it's the logo you see on uniforms. You have to be pre-knowledgable to know what Kukkiwon is.

Yeah, I'm sure it's this. A lot more people have heard about WTF, and nobody but serious adult TKD people care about the distinction.

The school I attend used to have a Karate sign out front. The owner said there was a time when people didn't know what taekwondo was, and found that a lot of families were just looking for a school for their kids to do some martial art.

Hahaha, yeah. Most of the Tang Soo Do guys around here still say they do karate or TKD for the same reason. I suppose that's better than 20 years ago when it was all "Korean Karate".