I am very confused ..... again???

[Manny]

Yesterday I got in touch with sambonim Ramiro Guzman representative of Soo Back Do Moo Duk Kwan in Mexico, I just wanted to know what is SBD and the diferences beetwen it and TKD.

Ramiro Guzman is one of the glories of Mexican TKD, he was one on the fisrts and top stutedents of Grand Master Dai Won Moon (the father of the Mexican TKD) and before reading Guzman's words I got very confused.

Sambonim Guzman was one of the top competitor internationally he was a very important part of Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan in México but it seems some yearsk back there was a fracture in TKD MDK and several people departed and formed a new organization Asociacion Moo Duk Kwan.

Mr. Guzman told me in his email that in the begining of the 70's Dai Won Moon taught Tang Soo Do and eventually Mr. Moon departed form Grand Master Kee and got inside the TKD movement, this is is true?

Mr. Guzman was a high dan in MDK TKD but now he's a 7th dan Black belt in SBD how is this is? he merily change his dans in Kukiwon Tae Kwon Do to SBD is this possible, I mean SBD gave to him a 7th degree black belt? SBD movement started back in 1994-97, how a sambonim can reach 7th degree black belt in such short period of time?

Mr.Guzman told me they don't like the sportizacion of TKD and so they wanted to change to SBD because it's an original martial rat from Korea and they wanted to keep the MA, however Ramiro Guzman as I Said beforte was a top international competitor, wining championships in Europe and Asia and USA... and he liked so much competition even he was one (with Isais Dueñas) the firsth full contact fighters Mexico had.

I really don't get it, I still thinking SBD is in some way TKD too or viceversa, both are Korean Martila Arts, TKD was only the result of the Kwans unifications, some adhere and some don't but, as I know was Gen.Choi the one who unificated the Kwan and thus the word tae Kwon Do was made.

Manny



Manny

 

[DMcHenry]

Soo Bahk Do was called Tang Soo Do (as was Taekwondo), but when GM Hwang Kee change the name he also changed the art quite a bit. Soo Bahk Do has newer, more Chinese influenced sets of forms called Chil Song (7), Yuk Roh (6) and Hwa Sun (1) and have been phasing out the older form set seen in Tang Soo Do (pyung-ahn series with related youdanja forms) in favor of the new form set. There have been styalistic changes too. I can do the exact same form next to a SBD player and we may not look anything alike.

I would be confused too, but that's just me (I'm confused all the time anyway)

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Mr. Guzman was a high dan in MDK TKD but now he's a 7th dan Black belt in SBD how is this is? he merily change his dans in Kukiwon Tae Kwon Do to SBD is this possible, I mean SBD gave to him a 7th degree black belt? SBD movement started back in 1994-97, how a sambonim can reach 7th degree black belt in such short period of time?
Mr.Guzman told me they don't like the sportizacion of TKD and so they wanted to change to SBD because it's an original martial rat from Korea and they wanted to keep the MA, however Ramiro Guzman as I Said beforte was a top international competitor, wining championships in Europe and Asia and USA... and he liked so much competition even he was one (with Isais Dueñas) the firsth full contact fighters Mexico had.
I really don't get it, I still thinking SBD is in some way TKD too or viceversa, both are Korean Martila Arts, TKD was only the result of the Kwans unifications, some adhere and some don't but, as I know was Gen.Choi the one who unificated the Kwan and thus the word tae Kwon Do was made.

This is a very general answer to your points of confusion. I am sure that others can add many other important details, but this is not meant to be a comprehensive answer!
The martial arts of today started to come of age with the work of Kano (Judo) in the late 19th century & Funokshi (Karate) in the early 20th century. They were simply not everywhere in society like they are today, nor were they in the form of today. There were virtually no martial arts in Korea during the occupation, as they "fell out of favor" prior to Japan making it a colony (for many reasons) & they were not allowed by the colonial govt, with the exception of Judo, archery & I believe Kendo & wrestling (maybe sumo). Please keep in mind that again, the martial arts were not in the exact same form that you find them today. During this period of occupation we know of at least 7 Koreans that left Korea for a better opportunity (work &/or academic education). Two of these Koreans had exposure to Chinese martial arts & 6 of them were exposed to martial arts in Japan.
When these 7 men returned to Korea they were responsible for opening the 6 early kwans from 1944-47. These kwans at that time were essentially basic karate now taught by Koreans in Korea, hence the term Korean karate. They used Korean & Chinese terms to describe what they were doing, so they did not have to use the Japanese word karate, such as TangSuDo, KongSuDo & KwonBup.
GM Hwang Kee started with the term HwaSoDo, eventually embracing TangSuDo. There were some attempts to unify under the banner of the Korean KongSuDo Association, but that did last. The 1st president of south Korea, Rhee Seungman, viewed by some as a puppet for the US govt, was fierce anti-Japanese. His govt prohibited the embrace or adoption of anything Japanese with an official policy in place to to accomplish same & promote the re-birth of Korean culture. He took office in the UN supervised elections of 1948. The north did not have elections & the Soviets installed Kim Il Sung. The Korean Civil war broke out in 1950, causing great havoc, destruction, loss of life & general upheaval affecting all aspects of society & Korean life, including of course the martial arts.
When the fighting stopped in 1953 (no peace treaty ever signed) south Korea now had 2 demons to use to further their political agenda, anti-Japanese & anti-communist sentiment. Anyone that resisted what the south Korean govt wanted were labeled with either of these tags or in some cases, both.
The kwans re-opened & continued to teach karate, using the other labels, while adding in their own ways emphasis & techniques to make them more Korean. Gen Choi, who started teaching his TangSuDo in the army since 1946 moved onto the civilian martial art scene in the 1950s as a result of his high rank (general) & position in south Korea. He tried to unify the kwans under his name Tae Kwon Do in 1955. However he was not successful, as the civilians did not want to follow his way. So from 1955 forward, the only ones using the name TKD was pretty much limited to those following Gen Choi.
There were further attempts to make TKD organizations in 1957 & 59, that did not last. Finally in 1961, a military coup happened & the Korean TaeSuDo Association was formed. This eventually became the present day KTA, when Gen Choi, as their 3rd president got them to accept the name TKD. All during this time, Hwang Kee danced a dance or 2 with the various TKD movements (even the KongSuDo merge attempt) but eventually opted out for one reason or another. During these time periods Hwang Kee conducted his own push to make his art or system more Korean in his way. This included using a book from the 1790s & the name Su Bak Do, which came from the game Su Bak Hi. His Moo Duk Kwan embraced TangSuDo & split when many of his students joined the TKD movement in the 1960s. Hwang Kee embraced the SuBakDo name as he pointed out that this was the Korean martial art that was connected to the all important pre-occupation Korea. This was needed given the anti-Japanese sentiment & the desire to re-instill Korean culture.

So now the TKD movement broke into 2: the TaeSuDo guys that centered their push around new unifed sports rules & Gen Choi, who was using the TKD label 1st, around his TKD patterns of Korean forms. (SIMPLE VIEW). Gen Choi would continue to refine his Tuls & their required exact movement over the years, via the ITF. The WTF, now led by Dr Kim Un Yong, continued to get Kukki TKD accepted & adopted by many nations & various international sports groups, eventually taking the tpo prize in the sports world with official Olympic sport status.
However all along, individual schools were still doing what they wanted. Many could still see the karate roots. So for some it is all karate or all just martial arts, as there are only so many ways to kick & punch. For others the differences were stark & many. It is often in the eye of the beholder. For some, martial arts are martial arts. Some break them down by country, others by emphasis, grappling vs striking etc.
Hwang Kee's roots in the end were similiar to those of Choi Hong Hi & the Kukki TKD 2nd generation leaders. The way these men moved forward help to create the differences & emphasis that could help them & others to distinguish themselves as a unique system. But for others, martial arts is martial arts.
SuBakDo was the name Hwang Kee used. TKD was the name Gen Choi 1st used. TaeSuDo was the name the kukki TKD leaders 1st used beofre they adopted the TKD label. For many, the underlying art is the same, a Korean martial art. So at times, degree transfer, promotions or acceptance is possible. It is also a way to grow your group by certifying one from the other in into yours.