Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Si-Je]

Check this video out. here's a 'straw' I'm grasping at. lol!
This is my favorite site for realistic street combat.
Should this tiny girl have used BJJ in this elevator against this big guy?
Could she have? Or would it have put her in a truely dangerous position wrestling him in the small space of an elevator?
It takes a bit to get started, about halfway through you get the most awesome beatdown probably ever delivered by a tiny teenager! lol!

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Too answer Si-Je Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program. Wing Chun does too...But most schools neglect Sprints up grass hills,Running five miles a day,100 pushs extremely fast to build stamina not strength. 100 Leg lifts contious motions. 1000 fast chain punches. Fast front kicks contiously until your legs fall off...etc...also some people alternate the number of techniques starting off at minute progressing up to ten minutes over the course of a month. each day so like for instance some may do extremely fast

Wing Chun Stamina routines alternative method
Push ups (One Minute)
Sit ups (One minute straight)
Sprinting on straight grounds (One Minute intervals) 10x
Sprintin up hills (One Minute intervals) 10x
Running (One miles-five Miles)
Chain Punching (One Minute)
Front & Side Kicks contious(One Minute)
Leg Lifts(One Minute)

An much more...

But Si-Je. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.


Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...

So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun. Not really that they see as a long term art the will be able to use when their seventy or eighty years old. Now cross training for them is adding their Wing Chun to thier already obtained BJJ Skills. But WC is the supplemental art so they have some striking in their aresnal. They will not learn WC or Grow in their WC as fast as you have. It depends on the teacher. It is suppose to take three years to get the entire system but it may take them longer maybe ten years...that is okay. Some of them may never ever use their art in a real street sitituation. Many of them will never venture outside the safe zone of their surburbs. The only place where they can get close to combat is to get in the ring...Their is thirst for combat which is not met...

I been to Other WC schools outside my lineage...The basics were excellent...And if you practice those basics they way they do for ten years not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop. I don't train exclusively root so I am not there yet my self. I utilize skill and movement more so than root. Although I use root to strike with. But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.

So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense. If they wanted Self Defense they learn Karate...But for sports Tae Kwon Do and MMA are good. Muay thai is also be supplemented with BJJ now and days. But I could be wrong I don't think the Gracies were using Brazialian JuJitsu...Weren't using Greco Wrestling? Is there a difference?

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.

Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".

So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..

That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.

To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.

Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.

Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.

So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh my GOD you are REALLY grasping for straws on this! Put it on a credit card. You are going to win anyways right??? Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

 

[Si-Je]

Too answer Si-Je Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program.

But Si-Je. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.

Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...

So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun.

not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop.
But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.

So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense.

I understand the sport aspect. But, I've talked to alot of people that believe that BJJ is a great SD and would and do use it in the street. Ack! Their preference.
Train it for sport, that's great for them. I only have a problem with it when it's "sold" as viable self-defense.

As for a WC/WT person defending a grapple at that short time in art. Hubbie has started teaching the anti-grappling at grade 1 because of this. Using the basics of anti-grappling that match what they are leaning standing at that time in art.
i.e. you do basic stance and chain punch.
then you do that on the ground. using basic stance on ground to keep attacker off you when their between your legs.
Teaching to roll off the attacker in a mount position and chain punch to cover face with attack while their in mount.
And teaching to heel kick, or bicycle kick to keep a standing attacker from jumping on top of you when your on the ground on your back. Do this while turning on your back like a turtle if opponent runs around to your side to get "side position". etc...
Teaching to side step/pivot or "sprawl" against a takedown.

Basics standing, basics on the ground. Match for match, apply the same standing as you do on ground.

 

[dungeonworks]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

Pay it off in the "Gracie" period! LOL j/k

Also, which video on your link am I looking at? I see something about a cat cyst, WWE ladder match, and links to girl on girl kissing (which is kind of cool too, but not why I am on a Wing Chun forum! :ultracool )

By the way, I really do appreciate your insight Si-Je. I am just trying to understand it. If we all agreed, things just would not be fun around here and be more like an "SNL Skit".

 

[dungeonworks]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

He's Force Recon right? Salutes to him! :ultracool

 

[jarrod]

i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.

jf

 

[arnisador]

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html

The site wants to install something if you want to watch videos...

 

[Si-Je]

eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser.
Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html

does this one work better? It worked for me.

 

[Si-Je]

Live in my neighborhood and see how easy it is to avoid such things. We don't have a car, we walk to the grocery store three to five times a week. There's this crap everywhere we walk. On the sidewalk, off the sidewalk, in the street, in the parking lots to the stores.
Big D is nasty.
Big cities are nasty.

i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.

jf

 

[arnisador]

eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser.
Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html

does this one work better? It worked for me.

Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.

Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!

 

[Si-Je]

This one is why I don't lock my legs behind a stronger guy. They pick you up and slam you on your back, It's too easy to be slammed on your head or neck.
And this is at a tournament

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19848/back-broken-during-tournament.htmlhttp://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...ournament.html

 

[jks9199]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition. Others manage to... If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.

(And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period. A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)

 

[Si-Je]

Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.

Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!

It says that this was taken from an elevator security camera, so I guessing it's as real as it gets. They do alot of videos taken from individuals off cell phone cameras, and security cameras on this site. Most of the clips are NOT edited for bad language or brutality. So you have to be careful who's watching this stuff with you.

And honestly, I don't think she had alot of choice but to follow him. Looks like he set the elevator to open where he wanted it, like the parking garage, and it was the only way out. I wouldn't want him to recupe and charge the elevator again while I was still in it waiting for the doors to close. hey, it could have been her floor too! lol!

Anyways, I think if women followed through like that more visciously men would have to think twice about attacking a woman. If it was pretty much common knowledge that a cornered woman will stomp you down worse than a man it might deter future attacks on women.
Men that attack women know that she'll be overly concerned with getting away and won't fight back much, easy target. And a target with less chance of receiving serious injury.
Personally, if a guy attacks me like that I'll give him a beatdown for all women everywhere.
I love her use of the floor and walls of the elevator to bang his head into, the grab and pull back by the scruff of his neck was absolute beauty! lol! Like she was saying " where do you think YOUR going? get back here so I can't smack you around some more!" lol!

Oh, and no one has anything to say about the BJJ guy that got his back broken in tournament? I guess he should have leg go his legs around the guys waist?

 

[Si-Je]

Oh, stop with the credit card. We don't have one. Done deal. Must be nice to be folks with credit and money.

As for the Gracie rules:
1. no punching the back of the neck and head (well, don't shoot into my legs trying to slam me painfully to the ground on my back and expose your head like that.)
2. Don't mount me and try to smash my face in totally exposing your groin at my face level where I can easily chain punch it until they scream alto style and get off me.
3. don't clamp your legs around my head in a triangle fashion where I could get my neck broken, and not expect me to bite you in the theigh or the groin to save my neck.
4. don't armbar me with my elbow in the crotch where I can tan sau and shove my arm forward into the groin to save my elbow from being broken or hyper extended.

Those rules are like saying: "no, I've got you in an armbar you can't hit, kick, elbow, poke my eyes, chop the throat, hurt my groin, bite, ear slap, or seriously hurt me in any vitals. Even though I expose all to you.
Now be still while I break your arm and put the video on youtube!" oh and by the way, " BJJ is a realistic self-defense art designed for the mean beaches of Brazil."

Hubbie likes to "play fair" like that, but, I will not. That's not the point I'm trying to make. He's gonna make the point WC/WT can be used in the ring with rules and following the rules, because that's the only way to help people see it's a complete system and a viable true self-defense. The cage. So, he's more likely to play along. He's a devildog, he likes competition and pain. lol!
Not me, I'm a punker and don't let myself get hurt for 'show' or to prove a 'point'. He's the Sifu, let him do it. lol!

You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition. Others manage to... If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.

(And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period. A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)

 

[MJS]

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times,

Never said that it hadn't been beaten.

it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

Yes, that is true. However, has it ever entered your mind, that the stand up fighters, such as Chuck, have incorporated a grappling defense into their stand up, to make that takedown defense even strgoner? Or are you still assuming that they're using pure standup for that?

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

Hmm...your lack of understanding is showing Sije. If you really watch a match, you will see that many BJJ guys will secure a good position first, which really isn't as hard as you make it seem. They play the chess game, thinking a few moves ahead, so while it appears they're going for one thing, they're really setting up what they want and by then, its too late for the other person.

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

More lack of understanding showing here. You are under this impression that it takes alot. Watch Rickson or Royce. They're so relaxed, compared to the G&P guys that you see today. That is the real idea of BJJ.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

Its probably because you don't understand it.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

Nobody said that you had to roll around on the ground. I've said many times that is the last place you want to be, because of the reasons you list, such as mult. attackers, objects on the ground, etc. However, to assume that you will never end up there is a recipe for disaster. BJJ will help you with the initial escape, and getting up properly, so you can continue your stand up defense.

 

[MJS]

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.

So, going on this, is your hubby only fighting in the state in which you live or will he be traveling? If he is going to travel, then theres no issue with traveling right over to Ca.

 

[MJS]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.

Umm...yeah, ok.

 

[Si-Je]

So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.

Umm...yeah, ok.

What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.

And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?

And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.

I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ.

 

[seasoned]

Cut and dry guys, the stand up arts, of kicking punching and strikes, allows that person to better defend against multiple opponents. Takes downs put you at a disadvantage with more then one aggressor, with all that rolling around on the ground. If you are fighting more then one person you had better stay up and moving. I am talking street not cage. If three guys confront you, and you are a stand up fighter I would venture to say you could have at least 2 on the ground in a bad way, real fast. If I am a grappler facing 3 guys, I can only concentrate on one at a time. Just my thoughts. And also by the way I have used the groin kick in the street very successfully. It is the pelvic bone you are striking, with that front kick. Very painful.
The traditional arts cover ground techniques, but it is more on how to deal with them rather then roll with them. A self defense art is something that can be used anywhere, I would hope. What about the LEO we have on board. I know you have all the toys at your disposal, but if it comes down to it, do you want to roll around on the ground with them, along with your firearm? I have been to a lot of DT classes, and a lot are different, do some instructors teach grappling within that context?