Effectiveness of Wing Chun

Si-Je

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
17
Location
Texas
Yes, I'm a Chi believer... But...
I'm not flinging myself around or down for anybody! lol!
I'm little, I get enough of that crap already! I don't want any more of it if I can help it. If your chi can't move me, then tough cookies grandmaster whosiwhatzit. ;)
If it can, then all respect and teach me that stuff!
:)
 

mook jong man

Senior Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
3,080
Reaction score
261
Location
Matsudo , Japan
Yes, I'm a Chi believer... But...
I'm not flinging myself around or down for anybody! lol!
I'm little, I get enough of that crap already! I don't want any more of it if I can help it. If your chi can't move me, then tough cookies grandmaster whosiwhatzit. ;)
If it can, then all respect and teach me that stuff!
:)

Two of those videos are from the school I taught at and they are the real deal Si -Je as you Americans like to say .
When I first joined Wing Chun I was what you might call a bit of a doubter , but as I rose up through the ranks and became an instructor I had a lot of contact with Sifu Jim .

I was the one in the class that would always say Sifu Jim can you do that on me so I can see what it feels like . He'd say sure Mark , no worries .
Well one time he did like a 1 inch double palm strike on me that nearly knocked me into next week , and I am short but pretty solid at 90 kg , and over the years he did several things like that to me .

The other video is about Inst. Tony , one of Sifu Jims most senior instructors , another man I have first hand experience with .
When he visited Sydney he showed me how he could put his body weight into his arm , he held up his arm in a Dai Sau and I pushed on his arm and indeed it did feel like he had his whole body weight in his arm , It was a real struggle to move him .

I also asked him if he could demonstrate his speed to me and he threw out a punch or something , I don't know what it was because it was so fast that my eye balls couldn't register it .

He is a very humble but highly skilled man , on a side note he talked me out of beating the crap out of three drunk dudes that said something crude to my wife one night at a chinese restaurant we were at celebrating Inst. Tony's visit .
I was so mad that I didn't care that I was out numbered and they were bigger than me , only someone like him that I deeply respected could calm me down .

I won't even talk about Sigung Tsui other than to say he is in a whole different league altogether , you would have to have some tricks up your sleeve if you'd been training continuously since 1951 . For the record I have to say I never witnessed any chi manipulation of peoples bodies from 3 metres away , all the demos that were done on me involved contact and quite painfully so at times .

Its not that I don't believe it exists , in fact I have been watching that show Mind , Body and Kick *** Moves and I have seen some pretty incredible things on that , so I don't rule anything out .
Its just that I am the type of guy that has to feel it first before I can become a true believer .
 

KamonGuy2

Master of Arts
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
1,884
Reaction score
19
Location
London, United Kingdom
Well the ring is next best step to actual combat.!
No it's not and that's the point we're making
Definately pressure testing your art is good, but the rules of most tournament/ring fights means that they are completely different from streetfighting. A lot of boxers (including my best mate) are so used to a ref breaking them up when it goes to a clinch that they aren't that good at short range stuff
If I was up against a boxer, I would look forward to the clinch and wrapping them up and then employing my short range fak saos

Since you guys do not challenge people on street than the only other way for you to prove your martial arts is by getting in a ring. Now there is difference from on the street and in the ring. Thats what street challenges are for. Now you could challenge people to light contact fight in the street. Or hard contact with a mouth piece and a cup an no gloves. .!
That's veering off topic. The argument is that wing chunners do not test the art's effectiveness. Asking random people on the street to spar with you isn't a streetfight. Most of them would not take it seriously. Others would do silly little jabs designed to catch you out rather than hurt you
And why a cup but no gloves? If you're going to have one bit of protection you might as well go the whole hog!

But as for street fighting an boxers. Take someone like Mike Tyson. If he was to fight in a the street fight and he did of course. What do you think the out come would be. The other guy was hurt badly. .!
Yeah, but so was mike Tyson and that was our point. In most fights I've been in, the only injury I've sustained has been from attacks from the other guy. I've never 'hurt myself', whereas a lot of other arts do
There is a great youtube clip (ill have to dig it out) were a TKD guy initiates a challenge match against a Muay Thai guy. The Tkd guy does one hit and recoils in pain because he has never hit a person for real

Mike Tyson remained skilled with wrappings and with out wrappings. He still knew how to mixed it up in the street and out the street. Some of these cage fighters and ring fighters who do muay thai no how to adpat to gloves and with out them. So you run into them on the street they won't hurt their hand...but your face and shins and ribs may be hurt if not broke!
It is true that a lot of boxers learn how to do bare knuckle fighting, but it is very very different to what they do in the ring and is not technically boxing

Sport competition is very tactical, and more about wearing your opponent out through the rounds

The 16oz gloves also create a bit of a barrier meaning that you have more cover protecting you. When you take the gloves off, there are massive gaps in the guard

In wing chun at Kamon we train 'feeding techniques' where someone will throw in a hard, determined attack and we have to deal with it. At high level, this is the closest you will get to real fighting because there are no rules, no set attacks (anything goes) and there is no protection

And as for cage fighters - most of them will point blank refuise to have any fights (challenges) in a street, because if they injure themselves, their career is jeapordised. If they were pushed (ie someone tried to mug them) then yeah they would defend themselves. But generally if you ask a Cage Fighter what they will do in that situation they just say 'run' or 'let my mates deal with it'

I've learnt from experience that it is not always the best thing to hang around with martial art instructors. Most will avoid fighting and leave you to deal with it!!!
 
OP
astrobiologist

astrobiologist

Brown Belt
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
418
Reaction score
19
Location
York, Pennsylvania
I'm very interested in learning WC. There is a man who comes by my school in the mornings to train with my fatehr. He trained WC in China when he was younger. I'm hoping he will be willing to teach me what he knows. Also, tonight I am going to check out an MMA school near me. I'm interested in grappling and sparring, more for the contact and the workout, but maybe I'll see what similarities and differences I can find. I haven't been in a street fight in a long time (and I hope it stays that way), but I know that in a situation of self-defense I would never start bouncing around with a high guard like sport fighters do.
 

Eru Il繙vatar

Blue Belt
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
250
Reaction score
2
To Si-Je: I don't know if you've seen it but we had quite a discussion on a thread about internal aspects of WC. Some very knowledgable people on the subject have contributed. I sudgest you take a look:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71232.

I realy dont know what to think of that first video of John Chang...Who knows, maybe something like that does exist. I think the no-touch knockout stuff is something else then mysterious energy. Something closer to psychology. Check out Derren Browns work! He even did a show with a so called fameous WC instructor from Hong Kong. As for blowing candles, I have no experience on doing it by Chi but I have tryed it once for the sake of fun and managed to extinguish one candle from a 1-2 centimeter distance with a relaxed punch. If you practice it I bet you could get quite good probably.

As for the WC vids you posted; I think you'll like the discussion on the thread I linked. I personaly don't think that theres anything mysterious behind it. Just body structure. I can do it myself to a cetein degree and I can feel the muscles at work when I'm doing it and the pressure in heels. The guy from Mooks school isn't doing exactly that when the guy grabs him from behind but the concept is the same... Instead of transfering the attackers mass/push/punch down your heels he transfers his body weight into his arms. It's just using you'r body structure/mass in a smart way. I got the feeling that on that thread I linked before we sort of silently agreed that this can be called as Chi or internal aspects of WC, but I assure you it's not some mystical energy. Not saying that that doesn't exist, just that this particular stuff can be explained quite well with physics and anatomy.

And check out this guys Chi:

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Much of what you said I tend to agree with. Except for a skilled kicker who is used to real contact. I know some Vietnamese fighters who practice full contact TKD they are not going to hurt there foot kicking you. Lol...

Sound like the TKD you spoke of must never have kicked an heavy bag. Plus boxers are not only trying to wear you down. Thats a tactic against a very strong opponent. Most boxers are looking for that opening to knock you out. Atleast the boxers I hung around with were looking for the knock out. How to get in an tap that chin. There strategy was based on hitting the knock out point. If you have a strong chin then maybe they would try to hit you with body shots to wear your body down an if your not conditioning enough break those rips.


But it depends on where the boxer is from?

Is he from the street then chances are he has fights all the time in an out the ring...

Is he from the suburbs then chances are he longs for sparring and matches so he can have a fight.

Sometimes practicing art and having it known is all you need to get challenge into a fight. Especially in the hood. People will always won't to challenge you then.


Here in the county people usually watch you do your forms and basics in the park an asked a few questions...but never really approach you.



No it's not and that's the point we're making
Definately pressure testing your art is good, but the rules of most tournament/ring fights means that they are completely different from streetfighting. A lot of boxers (including my best mate) are so used to a ref breaking them up when it goes to a clinch that they aren't that good at short range stuff.
If I was up against a boxer, I would look forward to the clinch and wrapping them up and then employing my short range fak saos


That's veering off topic. The argument is that wing chunners do not test the art's effectiveness. Asking random people on the street to spar with you isn't a streetfight. Most of them would not take it seriously. Others would do silly little jabs designed to catch you out rather than hurt you
And why a cup but no gloves? If you're going to have one bit of protection you might as well go the whole hog!


Yeah, but so was mike Tyson and that was our point. In most fights I've been in, the only injury I've sustained has been from attacks from the other guy. I've never 'hurt myself', whereas a lot of other arts do
There is a great youtube clip (ill have to dig it out) were a TKD guy initiates a challenge match against a Muay Thai guy. The Tkd guy does one hit and recoils in pain because he has never hit a person for real


It is true that a lot of boxers learn how to do bare knuckle fighting, but it is very very different to what they do in the ring and is not technically boxing

Sport competition is very tactical, and more about wearing your opponent out through the rounds

The 16oz gloves also create a bit of a barrier meaning that you have more cover protecting you. When you take the gloves off, there are massive gaps in the guard

In wing chun at Kamon we train 'feeding techniques' where someone will throw in a hard, determined attack and we have to deal with it. At high level, this is the closest you will get to real fighting because there are no rules, no set attacks (anything goes) and there is no protection

And as for cage fighters - most of them will point blank refuise to have any fights (challenges) in a street, because if they injure themselves, their career is jeapordised. If they were pushed (ie someone tried to mug them) then yeah they would defend themselves. But generally if you ask a Cage Fighter what they will do in that situation they just say 'run' or 'let my mates deal with it'

I've learnt from experience that it is not always the best thing to hang around with martial art instructors. Most will avoid fighting and leave you to deal with it!!!
 

Si-Je

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
17
Location
Texas
Oh, I'm not saying it's mystical. :) It's science. Just have to learn the structure and the way energy flows.
meridians, acupuncture, acupressure, are these things mystical? Some people think so, but the Chinese treat it as science.

And Mook, I just put those videos up to show that watching videos of Chi demos can't prove anything to ya. You said it right, you've got to feel it done on you. As for guys getting hit with Chi several feet away, ah,.. I don't know about all that. But, that one guy blew out candles from far away. Or did he? Don't know. Was it enough force if he did to knock someone down? probably not, who knows?
And there is alot of physcological mind games teachers play with their students that are "fake" like some of these guys in online videos. But, if the power of the mind is strong enough to make the equipment of a paramedic's go nutz and the student actually feels this stuff because of his mind being tricked isn't that kinda the same thing? or similar? And then so, isn't the mind strong enough to develop chi in more amazing ways? And we're only limited to our minds limitations of accepance of what it THINKS it can do?
Deep. anyways!! lol!

Astrobiologist: Effectiveness of WC/WT:
I've got an idea for you as a new student. Take WC/WT classes for 3-6 months, depending on how often a week you train. If you train 2 days a week wait 6 months, if you train 2 or more days a week then wait 3 months. Then,,... go to the MMA gym and put on the gear and spar them. Use the WC/WT you've learned, test it, feel it out. Find out your strengths and weaknesses, find out WC/WT's strengths and weaknesses.
Then..., go back to Sifu and ask, "Sifu, I was sparring and the guy did "this" to me. I couldn't counter. What do I do if I'm attacked like that?" etc...
Then see what Sifu says. If he can answer to your satisfaction, or wants you to train longer or a bit harder in WC/WT groovy. If he doesn't want to fool with answering you or helping you. Bugger out of his Kwoon. Find another teacher. It's a self defense and combative art, he should be excited that you're wanting to apply it and spar right away.
Now, if he tells you to wait another couple of months before you spar at the MMA gym again. Then wait, and let him train you some more. Then go back every couple of months to see how your progressing. When you begin to feel more comfortable using the WC/WT in sparring with these guys, go more often. It'll be fun, and give you a goal to reach for when your training Wing Chun.
Make sense?
Train WC, take your time, learn it right, learn it pure and true, then spar when you feel ready. You'll know more than anyone else when YOUR ready to spar like that. Listen to your WC teacher and his/her suggestions on training, sparring, and counters. Even if it's weird. Trust your WC teacher. Ask questions.
 
OP
astrobiologist

astrobiologist

Brown Belt
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
418
Reaction score
19
Location
York, Pennsylvania
Si-Je, thanks for the advice. I like where you're going with that. There aren't any WC kwoon in my area, but I am likely moving to Boulder, Colorado this year and may find a good school there. There is a man who comes to my school who trained in WC years ago and so I may ask him to share some of his knowledge with me.
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Tell us how it goes with the guy who trained in WC?


Si-Je, thanks for the advice. I like where you're going with that. There aren't any WC kwoon in my area, but I am likely moving to Boulder, Colorado this year and may find a good school there. There is a man who comes to my school who trained in WC years ago and so I may ask him to share some of his knowledge with me.
 

KamonGuy2

Master of Arts
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
1,884
Reaction score
19
Location
London, United Kingdom
Sound like the TKD you spoke of must never have kicked an heavy bag. Plus boxers are not only trying to wear you down. Thats a tactic against a very strong opponent. Most boxers are looking for that opening to knock you out. Atleast the boxers I hung around with were looking for the knock out. How to get in an tap that chin. There strategy was based on hitting the knock out point. If you have a strong chin then maybe they would try to hit you with body shots to wear your body down an if your not conditioning enough break those rips.

But it depends on where the boxer is from?

Is he from the street then chances are he has fights all the time in an out the ring...

Is he from the suburbs then chances are he longs for sparring and matches so he can have a fight.

Sometimes practicing art and having it known is all you need to get challenge into a fight. Especially in the hood. People will always won't to challenge you then.

Here in the county people usually watch you do your forms and basics in the park an asked a few questions...but never really approach you.

Like I said, you will get boxers who are very tough guys and work boxing as a street art (ie they never bother in the ring).

But you're argument was that because wing chun was never in the ring or the cage, it is not as effective as something like boxing or BJJ

My point was that with ring fights and cage fights, you have the luxury of three minute rounds, giving you ample time to play your game, work your tactics at whatever pace you need. It is not like a streetfight, where your opponent is coming in all guns blazing. A boxer will pop out jabs at you and work your guard and work around you. It is too slow.

Certainly most good boxers will have a good enough punch to knock an average joe out after a couple of hits, but nowadays, most people have done some kind of martial art or wil be coming in so intensely that a boxer cannot move the way they ant to. I can proudly say that I can work from any position. Clinch, long range, crowded bar, alleyway, open street, ring, cage etc

Whereas many arts are limited because they need leverage to work

I once saw a boxer in a nightclub who got into a fight where he swung and his punch carried through and hit someone else (not his intended target). It all kicked off and he was taking out by three other people....
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
I see your point and agree to a point. I may have not clarifed my statement from earlier. But What I should have said is a boxer who is both trained in the ring and out. Also a Wing Chun guy could benefit from ring training. Not the sport part. The sport only is a guage of your skill against other skilled fighters. But the Ring work such as sparring with the gloves and equipment so you can go all out with your sparring partner with out knocking out teeth and knocking him out. The only difference between the ring and street fighting is one is real a fight the other is controlled fight meaning. When you spar you don't do eye gouges,leg and arm breaks. You don't try to iron palm your sparring partner's head or kill someone in the ring or sparring?


You do so to get practice fighting. Striking, Blocking, Deflecting, Uprooting, Grappling, Kicking, Trapping etc. This is the reason for ring work. In my Humble Opinion Kick Boxers, Boxers and MMA guys are more condition for and all out distance fight. Not because they have three minute rounds but because they train and spar daily. They are constantly fighting in and out the ring. So they have more experience fighting than the average WC guy who hasn't had a street fight in ten years an his WC training is Chi Sau, Two man Drills, Forms, Basic Punches and steps, Practicing kicks in the air and heavy bag, Hitting the wooden dummy and wall bag along with some conditioning exercises. This guy who only has Chi Sau and two man drills for contact will not have the experience a person who spars daily and fights skilled fighters every couple of months. A person who has a MMA fight or Tournment fight once a year for ten years is going to be alot more keen in fighting than someone who only practices his Art with out any contact other than chi sau and partner drills. This is my opinion. Some WC guys live in areas where they fight all the time. I just so happen to have friends and WC Brothers I can spar. Also there are few schools I can go to an spar people. But someone who is fighting with WC in the ring and spars daily will have an advantage over me. That being experience. Its like this you got a guy who reads books on firiing a shot gun. He practices shooting targets, he even practice shooting and aiming with no bullets. But he has never shot a living creature running away. Now you got a guy who is a sniper in the armed forces who has been on duty for three years and has killed ten men with single shot. The Armed Forces guy has an advantage over the guy who just trains with the gun but has never killed with it?

Also a Wing Chun guy who has killed men in hand to hand combat maybe due to fact he is Navy Seal or Marine this guy skills in WC will be to advantage than someone who just practices forms and basics and partner drills and chi sau. The guy who kills with his WC on regular basis will have an advantage over the guy in the ring too.

But this is my opinion. I am simply saying that Cage,Tournment,MMA,UFC, or Ring Fighting can enhance your fighting skills because you actually gauge your progress and you can do techniques you wouldn't do in a sparring session but it is controlled because the level of intent is capped at submission or knock out. Know breaking,crippling,maiming or killing. But all out fighting.

An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?

But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street?

You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.

But let me requalify my statement. WC right now is not adapted to ring. But it can. All one has to do is practice your drills with gloves on. Spar with gloves on. practice your forms with gloves on. Practice blocking and chi sau with gloves on. The more you do so the more natural your response shall be in the ring. WC right now in the ring is usually chain punch, front kick, shoot, take down,ground and pound. Which is pretty limited an no other real techniques. The newbi may not know your doing WC?

But all arts have limitations even WC. The trick is to know your limitations and adapt. Like for instance someone is driving 100mph at you with a chevy pick up truck. Don't throw up a Bong Sau or Kwun Sau to deflect the car. Your WC is not that strong. You will be killed. Move,run,jump,dodge get the heck out of the way. Your on the second floor a guys are coming in a room with guns don't try to deflect the bullets with tan sau. Jump out the window and brace for impact and roll on the grass to stop from breaking your legs. Then run or press upagainst the building. You have to know when to break the rules and when to follow the rules.

I believe WC is a very effective art. But I believe you an always find ways to improve your fighting ability in the streets. Also I don't know if you seen the TKD Olympics. But they don't do any timing or give you time to set up a technique. They go pretty fast an throw everything they can at you but the kitchen sink. Some Kick Boxers with alot stamina do the same. Your Technique comes in by not getting knocked on your **** and landing clean strikes to knock them. But again this is my opinion. I feel my view point before was not correctly posted. I am sorry I dont think I explained my self well.



Like I said, you will get boxers who are very tough guys and work boxing as a street art (ie they never bother in the ring).

But you're argument was that because wing chun was never in the ring or the cage, it is not as effective as something like boxing or BJJ

My point was that with ring fights and cage fights, you have the luxury of three minute rounds, giving you ample time to play your game, work your tactics at whatever pace you need. It is not like a streetfight, where your opponent is coming in all guns blazing. A boxer will pop out jabs at you and work your guard and work around you. It is too slow.

Certainly most good boxers will have a good enough punch to knock an average joe out after a couple of hits, but nowadays, most people have done some kind of martial art or wil be coming in so intensely that a boxer cannot move the way they ant to. I can proudly say that I can work from any position. Clinch, long range, crowded bar, alleyway, open street, ring, cage etc

Whereas many arts are limited because they need leverage to work

I once saw a boxer in a nightclub who got into a fight where he swung and his punch carried through and hit someone else (not his intended target). It all kicked off and he was taking out by three other people....


 

KamonGuy2

Master of Arts
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
1,884
Reaction score
19
Location
London, United Kingdom
I see your point and agree to a point. I may have not clarifed my statement from earlier. But What I should have said is a boxer who is both trained in the ring and out. Also a Wing Chun guy could benefit from ring training. Not the sport part. The sport only is a guage of your skill against other skilled fighters. But the Ring work such as sparring with the gloves and equipment so you can go all out with your sparring partner with out knocking out teeth and knocking him out. The only difference between the ring and street fighting is one is real a fight the other is controlled fight meaning. When you spar you don't do eye gouges,leg and arm breaks. You don't try to iron palm your sparring partner's head or kill someone in the ring or sparring?


You do so to get practice fighting. Striking, Blocking, Deflecting, Uprooting, Grappling, Kicking, Trapping etc. This is the reason for ring work. In my Humble Opinion Kick Boxers, Boxers and MMA guys are more condition for and all out distance fight. Not because they have three minute rounds but because they train and spar daily. They are constantly fighting in and out the ring. So they have more experience fighting than the average WC guy who hasn't had a street fight in ten years an his WC training is Chi Sau, Two man Drills, Forms, Basic Punches and steps, Practicing kicks in the air and heavy bag, Hitting the wooden dummy and wall bag along with some conditioning exercises. This guy who only has Chi Sau and two man drills for contact will not have the experience a person who spars daily and fights skilled fighters every couple of months. A person who has a MMA fight or Tournment fight once a year for ten years is going to be alot more keen in fighting than someone who only practices his Art with out any contact other than chi sau and partner drills. This is my opinion. Some WC guys live in areas where they fight all the time. I just so happen to have friends and WC Brothers I can spar. Also there are few schools I can go to an spar people. But someone who is fighting with WC in the ring and spars daily will have an advantage over me. That being experience. Its like this you got a guy who reads books on firiing a shot gun. He practices shooting targets, he even practice shooting and aiming with no bullets. But he has never shot a living creature running away. Now you got a guy who is a sniper in the armed forces who has been on duty for three years and has killed ten men with single shot. The Armed Forces guy has an advantage over the guy who just trains with the gun but has never killed with it?

Also a Wing Chun guy who has killed men in hand to hand combat maybe due to fact he is Navy Seal or Marine this guy skills in WC will be to advantage than someone who just practices forms and basics and partner drills and chi sau. The guy who kills with his WC on regular basis will have an advantage over the guy in the ring too.

But this is my opinion. I am simply saying that Cage,Tournment,MMA,UFC, or Ring Fighting can enhance your fighting skills because you actually gauge your progress and you can do techniques you wouldn't do in a sparring session but it is controlled because the level of intent is capped at submission or knock out. Know breaking,crippling,maiming or killing. But all out fighting.

An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?

But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street?

You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.

But let me requalify my statement. WC right now is not adapted to ring. But it can. All one has to do is practice your drills with gloves on. Spar with gloves on. practice your forms with gloves on. Practice blocking and chi sau with gloves on. The more you do so the more natural your response shall be in the ring. WC right now in the ring is usually chain punch, front kick, shoot, take down,ground and pound. Which is pretty limited an no other real techniques. The newbi may not know your doing WC?

But all arts have limitations even WC. The trick is to know your limitations and adapt. Like for instance someone is driving 100mph at you with a chevy pick up truck. Don't throw up a Bong Sau or Kwun Sau to deflect the car. Your WC is not that strong. You will be killed. Move,run,jump,dodge get the heck out of the way. Your on the second floor a guys are coming in a room with guns don't try to deflect the bullets with tan sau. Jump out the window and brace for impact and roll on the grass to stop from breaking your legs. Then run or press upagainst the building. You have to know when to break the rules and when to follow the rules.

I believe WC is a very effective art. But I believe you an always find ways to improve your fighting ability in the streets. Also I don't know if you seen the TKD Olympics. But they don't do any timing or give you time to set up a technique. They go pretty fast an throw everything they can at you but the kitchen sink. Some Kick Boxers with alot stamina do the same. Your Technique comes in by not getting knocked on your **** and landing clean strikes to knock them. But again this is my opinion. I feel my view point before was not correctly posted. I am sorry I dont think I explained my self well.
If you train
Your wing chun without contact then you need to switch schools. And quickly. At Kamon we are training contact every lesson. Obviously it will never go to full contact, but no art does.

You cant hit someone full contact in the face during a practice session because you can cause serious injury to your training partner and they wont come back!

So we go to the next best thing. Using the chest for full power hits and using controlled energy to deal strikes to the face that your opponent can handle. Over time, this builds up

Beginners obviously cant hit each other full in the face, because they havent conditioned themselves to take it. So over time of limited contact, they become more adept at taking a hit

At advanced level, we train very hard hits to the face because we know that our training partner can take it

People who glove up and go at it hells bells annoy me. That is not full contact. It is like me grabbing a sponge baseball bat and hitting someone with it and claiming Ive hit them with a real baseball bat

Certainly gloved up punches are hard, but I would rather take a gloved up punch than a full palm strike in wing chun

Ring fighting is pointless. Too many rules. I fight karate knockdowns, which is bare knuckle, and even that isnt realistic because there are still too many rules
In all the arts I study, wing chun has the most contact

Pressure testing your martial arts is always important, but dont take pressure testing as a sign of real combat.
What I would say to chunners is dont take your wing chun into a sport format, because you will lose. If people want to glove up and spar etc, great, but dont use your wing chun to do that. For examples of why not, just look at youtube


Finally, you are quoting the Olympic TKD as a good example of pressure testing? Seriously, get out there and have a look around. The Olympic TKD stuff was a joke. Bad martial arts from a bad art
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Okay what I was saying is it wise. To allow people to put on face shields and mouth piece with gloves and throw punches at the face. Now in a real fight you might get punched in the face an feel pain. But the purpose of the training is to get use to different types of strikes being thrown hard at you. To be able to block them easily by constant pressure training of non-stop sparring. An also it gives beginners a chance to feel how WC works in a fighting scenario...its merely a training tool. An gives you more experience which may help prepare you for a fight. Now of course you may not have endurance in the face or body yet. But you can break down other exercises where you slap the face with out the gloves and equipment. An then your practice sparring with no gear an only hit the chest and stomach. But with full fledge equipment you can do somethings with a harder blows that you may not want to deal with with out gear. Atleast for beginners.


Do you see my point. I agree that gloves are not as painful as palm strike to the face. Depending though on the person power too. But what I am saying is it gives you a chance to feel real contact. or More contact. But your are right. I agree with you totally. I guess your missing my point.


By the way I like your ideas below great...
If you train
Your wing chun without contact then you need to switch schools. And quickly. At Kamon we are training contact every lesson. Obviously it will never go to full contact, but no art does.

You cant hit someone full contact in the face during a practice session because you can cause serious injury to your training partner and they wont come back!

So we go to the next best thing. Using the chest for full power hits and using controlled energy to deal strikes to the face that your opponent can handle. Over time, this builds up

Beginners obviously cant hit each other full in the face, because they havent conditioned themselves to take it. So over time of limited contact, they become more adept at taking a hit

At advanced level, we train very hard hits to the face because we know that our training partner can take it

People who glove up and go at it hells bells annoy me. That is not full contact. It is like me grabbing a sponge baseball bat and hitting someone with it and claiming Ive hit them with a real baseball bat

Certainly gloved up punches are hard, but I would rather take a gloved up punch than a full palm strike in wing chun

Ring fighting is pointless. Too many rules. I fight karate knockdowns, which is bare knuckle, and even that isnt realistic because there are still too many rules
In all the arts I study, wing chun has the most contact

Pressure testing your martial arts is always important, but dont take pressure testing as a sign of real combat.
What I would say to chunners is dont take your wing chun into a sport format, because you will lose. If people want to glove up and spar etc, great, but dont use your wing chun to do that. For examples of why not, just look at youtube


Finally, you are quoting the Olympic TKD as a good example of pressure testing? Seriously, get out there and have a look around. The Olympic TKD stuff was a joke. Bad martial arts from a bad art
 

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,920
Reaction score
1,434
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!

Hagakure

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
294
Reaction score
12
Location
Eye of Terror, UK
An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?


But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street?

You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.

Yoshi, read some of Geoff Thompsons work, if you've not already, I'd highly recommend his work. He's a former doorman whose meant to have had literally "thousands of fights". In his book "3 second fighter", Geoff explains that in his pretty extensive experience, most fights were over and done with in 3 seconds. This is highly unlikely in the MMA cage, not impossible, but it's unusual for a fight to be over in this short a period of time.

Most of us, that "probably" includes the average street thug would be classed as an amateur fighter. I personally think that this highlights the main difference between MMA/TMA/styles etc. Not the arts themselves, but the extent to which they're trained. Most guys that compete in the ring, and I'm talking about the higher level tournies here, are either pro, or semi pro. They train and train and train, that's all they do. They'll take far more knocks than the average amateur guy who trains for a few hours a week will, and they'll be far more accustomed to getting smacked around, it is, after all, part and parcel of their job.

My opinion is such, that I believe Wing Chun to be an extremely proactive, simple art that is quick and aggressive, and accustomed to close range fighting, which in nightclub toilets, doorways, pubs, will come in very handy. While it's not always applicable for all of us to become ring fighters, what we train can still be used as a force multiplier that will hopefully mean that if we come under attack, we'll (hopefully) live to type on here another day. :)

H
 

skinters

Blue Belt
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
208
Reaction score
4
Yoshi, read some of Geoff Thompsons work, if you've not already, I'd highly recommend his work. He's a former doorman whose meant to have had literally "thousands of fights". In his book "3 second fighter", Geoff explains that in his pretty extensive experience, most fights were over and done with in 3 seconds. This is highly unlikely in the MMA cage, not impossible, but it's unusual for a fight to be over in this short a period of time.

geoff thompsons,very good,he has a technique as you know called the fence,which he uses to control people on the door in a non threatning way.for example he might extend his hand and touch the persons arm,just enough to give him warning of any violent movements.the person knows he is being controled,but cannot undertstand how.

geoff talks about the fence here. some of the best self defence advice you will see.

you can draw a lot of similiarities with this technique and those practiced in wingchun.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Hagakure

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
294
Reaction score
12
Location
Eye of Terror, UK
geoff thompsons,very good,he has a technique as you know called the fence,which he uses to control people on the door in a non threatning way.for example he might extend his hand and touch the persons arm,just enough to give him warning of any violent movements.the person knows he is being controled,but cannot undertstand how.

geoff talks about the fence here.

you can draw a lot of similiarities with this technique and those practiced in wingchun.

Yeah, the fence. That's a great idea isn't it. GT's obviously used it himself many times, and, it looks very similar to a WC stance in the first place. :D

It's the whole (You) "I don't wanna fight mate, seriously" (with forward guard arm up) and BLAM! Then run.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top