Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

Status
Not open for further replies.

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18

The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together. They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent. This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted. This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.

In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Is it just me or does anyone else see off balancing, keeping oponent off of your center, using leverage and trapping???
 

Nolerama

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
1,228
Reaction score
71
Location
St. Louis, MO
I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.
 
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.

Yeah, I agree with that too. I think the BJJ/WC flows better than say, Karate or TKD and BJJ does with the mechanics of both being more natural for lack of better word.

Do you guys do any Wing Chun/Tsun in your MMA work? Which stand up do you guys use for the most part. I know the MMA group I was training with used mostly Muay Thai and Boxing.
 
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
The large number of people doing JKD/BJJ are thinking similarly!

Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part. The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.

I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work. I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.
 

Si-Je

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
17
Location
Texas
Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part. The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.

I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work. I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.

I think you all know what I would say to this. So, I'll leave that alone.
But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art. I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,063
Reaction score
700
Location
Kennewick, WA
But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.

How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?" 'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:

 
Last edited by a moderator:

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,765
Reaction score
750
Location
Georgetown Texas
How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?" 'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:




Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,765
Reaction score
750
Location
Georgetown Texas
Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.

Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.


The one you show is a bit differant.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
I think you all know what I would say to this. So, I'll leave that alone.
But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art. I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.


My Bad!!!! I meant Alan Orr's Wing Chun!!! I was thinking other cross training with EBMAS and FMA. Was just on the phone with a friend talking about that.

In my opinion, I do not believe any one system has the answer for everything, just to clarify my thoughts....not even Wing Chun. As you can see by the video posted, even Wing Chun masters could use help from a grappling system...ANY GRAPPLING SYSTEM!!! LOL That tape is an embarrassment to Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Weng Chun....EVERY flavor of Wing Chun.
 
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.


The one you show is a bit differant.


I still agree with what you said originally, he is open for a groin shot....IF you could get one fired off in time. That's the thing with any technique in any situation...the IF variable. I have been in that predicament in street fights a couple times and usually, Bob the Brawler will be raining blows to your face and that leaves me occupied trying to cover and better my position....which is very hard when it is a wrestler. Heck, I tried grabbing the one guys balls but his jeans were so tight they acted as a bit if a shield as my grip couldn't penetrate the denim of the Jordaches'! LOL (Yes, this happened in the late 80's!)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
12
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,765
Reaction score
750
Location
Georgetown Texas
Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

This is only conversation. As you know from my past posts I am a stand up fighter with some ground capabilities. In the art of war we need to be functional in all situations, and I believe any traditional art, is all inclusive. We have 4 limbs to strike with, but I am not naïve to think I won’t end up on my back. If I do the fight is not over, just another position to strike from. I personally don’t care about winning or losing, just surviving, and stopping the threat.
 

Si-Je

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
17
Location
Texas
Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.


The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynAfOSiqmg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jarrod

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
2,172
Reaction score
96
Location
Denver
Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.


The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.


the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler. it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.

jf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
12
Location
St.Louis Missouri
So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?



Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.


The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?


Just as Seasoned mentioned...it is another place to be effective. I too am a striker and would much rather pound it out with someone rather than roll, but...at least eighty percent of my adulthood streetfights went to the ground if not only for a few moments. Sometimes, I was able to out scramble and stand while others, it was too much for me to out wrestle a better grappler. In a nutshell, if I am facing a quicker striker that is not as strong as I am, you bet your **** I want to get him to the ground and negate the barrage of fists in my face. If I am facing a stronger guy, no way! I would rather pick him apart or make him want to stop by fighting at a longer range (think kickboxing or Tae Kwon Do). If that is not possible, then I want the arsenal and attributes I am learning in Wing Chun. You see, I am a Koei-Kan-Karate and kickboxer learning Wing Chun at this point. I have not the skill in Wing Chun to be able to rely on it at this point but that is changing slowly. I also trained MMA/Grappling for almost a couple of years and sparring MMA rules gave me a new light on how "I" aproach my training and helped clarify what I want to work on. Throw in the fact that I am 36 and just not the spring chicken I once was and the window of oppurtunity for me to fight the way I have relied upon to this point in my life, well....sometime soon, I will not have youth on my side nor the ability to rely on athletic ability alone. It took untill my early thirties to realize I am getting older and my atheletic attributes are slowly eroding. Wing Chun fits the bill for me.

To make a long story short, I am training with the fact in mind that grappling and kickboxing are not going to be my best face card to play when needed in the coming years. I see 50+ year old men in Wing Chun that would SMOKE me on my best day in a fight and rather quickly to boot. Same with the Fillipino styles. The Chuners and Fillipino guys aren't limping and crippled like so many elder players in the kickboxing, Judo, or MMA crowd. The ones that are limping and hobbling around still can turn it on using Wing Chun. That's what I am after. That's why I study Wing Chun with an eye on grappling. NOBODY has the choice in every altercation to fight the range you are most comfortable and therefore you need to at least be familiar with grappling because you may end up there from the start eg....jumped, slip and fall, trip..ect.
 
OP
D

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.


The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

Groin shots are not always fight enders. Actually, in fights I have seen in person or been in myself, I have never seen one end from them. Also, I personally never said BJJ uses Wing Chun principles. What I said was that some principles of Wing Chun can be used in BJJ and may actually work good. Carlson Gracie Jr. said this as well and did seminars with a well known Wing Chun Sifu to illistrate this point.

It is no secret that you personally dislike BJJ, and that is totally fine and I personally respect your opinion on that. I can't say one system is better than the other because I see them complementary to eachother...but that is from what I see and have experienced. Will I feel the same way in 5yrs or more, once I have grasped Wing Chun to a functional level? I don't know....cannot answer that at this moment. I have Kickboxing and Karate attributes thoroughly ingrained in my body at this time and am open to seeing anything from any style and call it as I see it and have seen it.

We can pick apart any technique or any scenario and look from the outside in and all see a dozen ways to avoid or take advatage in that situation. What I am after is doing it as efficiently as possible as it happens from a first person perspective. I have been in plenty of fights to have a good understanding of how I do things and where I would like to improve. Sensitivity, sticking, redirecting, controlling the centerline, and getting back to a position where I can do that from the ground is one of them. Training BJJ and other ground work looks to be a great place to start to accomplish that. The Gracie's have a library of video proof and have put their money where their mouth's are to prove their system on mats, tile floors, and beaches. What more proof could I need?

As far as BJJ living on over marketing.....HAAAAAHAHAHAHA! That is good! They have one of the most comprehensive and best quality control systems in their ranking than in anyother martial art I have seen. A Purple belt in one school is going to be on par with a Purple belt in another. They have kept good controls in their ranking quality. I cannot say the same for Karate, TKD, or other traditional styles. I have not seen enough practitioners from other Wing Chun/Tsun schools to make that asessment nor would I know how to judge that either. I do know that aside the Emin video and Alan Orr's student's fighting MMA on YouTube, I have seen nothing of Wing Chun in action to prove or disprove the style....just the abilities of the guys I train with. I won't mention the two guys from the first UFC's.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top