Effectiveness of Wing Chun

astrobiologist

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Hello. I am new to Wing Chun. I have not yet found a school or an instructor. I have simply been reading and watching videos about WC. It seems like Wing Chun could be a very effective style. I had posted something to this effect on a forum at **************. A member responded with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackFox
Have you tried many martial arts that emphasise clinch range fighting against a fully resisting opponent? There's very little evidence to support your assertion, so I'm wondering what frame of reference you're using to assess Wing Chung's effectiveness.

The assertion he spoke of is that Wing Chun seems like an effective style. I responded with this:

There aren't many martial arts that emphasize in-fighting almost solely. However, taking an analytical look at Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean martial arts one will see elements similar to wing chun emphasized in the techniques and forms. Students studying the Seisan Kata of Isshinryu such as myself may see that they are preactising the Wing Chun bong sau and tan sau techniques during the second set of techniques they perform. These together are also similar to the inside-to-outside block/strike of Shotokan and Tang Soo Do. They are effective for a quick block/parry and a strike.

From my reading it sounds like there could be a lot of "evidence" for the effectiveness of Wing Chun, but for the most part it is hear-say. I wonder if your "evidence" for backing up why you think Wing Chun is not effective is also hear-say. It can be pretty difficult to determine what stories you hear in the martial arts are true and which aren't. My reasoning for seeing Wing Chun as effective is that I see simple, strong techniques which are not committed. I see a style where the emphasis is for getting away from the flashy", baton-twirling we see in a lot of martial arts. Wing Chun has a focus on using a minimal energy to deflect, trap, or strike. I'm not saying that Wing Chun is the ultimate martial art. Indeed, I don't really even practise this art myself. All I'm saying is that I see a system for close range fighting which appears to have effective techniques.

I wonder what system you think must be better. Maybe Krav Maga, Modern Army Combatives, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu? I think if you actually take a look at these arts and many others you'll see that many of the principles for in-fighting are similar (not the grappling, the close range fighting when arms have not yet been trapped or just at the moment of trapping/clinching). From my own observations, it seems like Wing Chun emphasizes the best of all of these techniques. From deflections and parries, to controlling wrists and elbows, to getting under or over a guard, to quick impulse-based short range strikes, to low-body attacks with the legs and blocking with the legs. There aren't any of the over-the-head haymakers, or jump spinning kicks, or similar moves which can be great for exercise but are not very useful in close-range self defense.



I was wandering what some long time practitioners of Wing Chun thought. Can you school me here? Is there anything else I should add in my response to this guy? Are my points valid?

Like I said I'm new to learning about Wing Chun, but I think it would be a great addition to my martial art.
 

mook jong man

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You sound like you are a very intelligent and insightful martial artist to have noticed the things that you talk about in regards to the Wing Chun system . But if this moron can't see the logic and simplicity that is Wing Chun then I wouldn't even bother trying to educate him .

As to the effectiveness , as with any art it depends on the way you train . If you never go outside of your comfort zone and venture into the realms of hard sparring , both hard chi sau sparring and sparring out of contact range then it is negligible whether you will be able to apply it on the street .

Having a bit of the mongrel in you also goes a long way as well . I can only say that my seniors have used it with great success on the street against single and multiple attackers .

Even some students that had only trained for a couple of months and pretty much only knew Pak Sau and punch , four corner deflection and low heel kick used to come up to me and say " Guess what instructor , I had to use the Wing Chun on the weekend at a party it worked great .

Or there was another one that had only been training for a matter of weeks and got attacked by a haymaker from an opposing team member at a soccer game and calmy stepped in with a Dai Sau followed by three centerline punches and knocked the guy to the ground .

If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " !
 

yak sao

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If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " ![/quote]

I'm kind of partial to " don't argue with an idiot, the people looking on may not be able to tell the difference"
 

yak sao

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If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " ![/quote]


I'm kind of partial to :
"don't argue with an idiot, onlookers may not be
able to see the difference"
 

KamonGuy2

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I have trained in multiple styles, including BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, boxing and various other arts. I can say, in my experience, that wing chun is the best for clinching. Its use of sensitivity to approach clinchwork is very useful. The use of direct lines and very short range attacks is also of extreme benefit

There is great dispute about the effectiveness of wing chun on the ground which I believe is its weakest area, but NO art is complete

If you find a school where the instructor is good on the ground (Kamon, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Grados, Bosteppi) then you will be okay

Don't take too much to heart on forums. No one knows everything (except me...) and so there are no certainties
 

Yoshiyahu

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The best way to find out how effective an Art is would be to fight someone from that art.

I can tell you all about why I think MT,Karate,Drunkenfist,Tai Chi is a very effective Martial Art. But until I show you with combat it means nothing...Too much talk about the science and art. Not enough showing. Do boxers talk about how effective boxing is?

No they show you by getting in the ring.

Even Karate guys and Muay Thai guys prove their art by Tournment or Competiton fighting.

I am not saying you have to enroll in some sport to prove your art. But the way Wing Chun has been proven by the Chinese is to fight with it. Then others will believe you.

Study the history of Yip Man and how he came to learn WC and teach it?

Wing Chun has to be proven by Fighting

While enrolled at St. Stephen's, a classmate, hearing of Yip's training in kung fu, dared him to challenge an old kung fu practitioner living on a boat anchored in Hong Kong Bay. Yip accepted the dare and duly sought out and challenged the old man. The old man accepted his challenge and, despite Yip's growing reputation as an unmatched fighter, beat him handily. Only after his defeat did Yip discover that the old man was actually master Leung Bik, a direct descendant of the original Wing Chun lineage reaching back to Wing Chun herself. After the melee, Leung took Yip as his only student in the art and advanced his Wing Chun even further, both expanding his theoretical grounding in the art and refining his technique.

Leung Sheung was an assistant teacher to Go Dai Chung. He challenged Yip Man and lost. Leung Sheung then became Yip Man?s first student.


Yip Man?s students are divided into three generations. The first generation was taught how to use Wing Chun for fighting. This way Yip Man would be able to establish a name for Wing Chun.


Ho Kam Ming full contact Wing Chun teams have fought in martial art tournaments throughout Southeast Asia and has earned both recognition and respect.

Sum Nung was hesitant at first to take Yuen Kay San as his teacher. He had been learning from Cheung for a few years and saw Yuen, older and quite slender, as a stark contrast to his young and powerful teacher. This feeling led him to question Yuen's skills. Yuen, seeing in Sum Nung a great desire and potential, was willing to indulge the youth. Promising that the youth could use all that he knew, and vowing only to defend in return, Yuen invited Sum Nung to touch hands with him. Quickly realizing that Yuen's skills were of the highest level, Sum Nung immediately became his student.

By the 1943, Sum Nung had gained a great reputation for his wing chun fighting skills in Foshan and had begun to teach students of his own.


Although Sum Nung, like Yuen Kay-San, did not boast of his abilities nor seek out confrontation, he did on occasion have friendly tests of skill with practitioners of other martial art styles. Although he seldom spoke of the encounters out of respect for his opponents' reputations, it is said that in them, he never met with failure and his reputation in Guangzhou grew steadily.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_gomez01.html
From my own sparring and lessons with Wong sifu to watching him send big Kirk Gloss (an 8 times wrestling champion at 6'4" and 220 lbs) flying across the room, I thought it was sifu's diet that caused it. I knew Kirk felt the same way. One day we were at Kirk's house. Kirk and I were shocked to witness sifu breaking a board with an inch power. Kirk could not wait to tell his friend Jesus who was the East coast kickboxing champion about it. Kirk brought Jesus and insisted that he sparred with sifu. Jesus closed in and in a flash he fell back like a log of wood, knocked out. Kirk who was an ambulance driver, performed CPR on Jesus. After waking up Jesus said all he remembered was a powerful punch landing on his face. Sifu said he used the pak sao technique. I could not see it because it was so fast. I wished I could have seen it again.


http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_kenlee01.html
I wanted to discover his Wing Chun skills in other areas, so I told him I had studied from half a dozen Wing Chun schools through out the U.S. and I knew all the forms and I also told him I had taught over 100 students. He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the principles and applications of it. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine, I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew, I failed. It puzzled me but I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring. Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power of comprehension that he could generate such power, and threw me off in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing.

The more you fight and practice the Kung of WC the more people will want to learn WC!!!



I have trained in multiple styles, including BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, boxing and various other arts. I can say, in my experience, that wing chun is the best for clinching. Its use of sensitivity to approach clinchwork is very useful. The use of direct lines and very short range attacks is also of extreme benefit

There is great dispute about the effectiveness of wing chun on the ground which I believe is its weakest area, but NO art is complete

If you find a school where the instructor is good on the ground (Kamon, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Grados, Bosteppi) then you will be okay

Don't take too much to heart on forums. No one knows everything (except me...) and so there are no certainties
 

tellner

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This Crack Fox character is far from being a moron. He's asked the only two important questions:

What do you know?
How do you know it?

MJM and YS's responses actually detract from the sum total of human knowledge. They're simply emotional reactions which come down to "If he asked you that he's an idiot" in about that many words. By saying that they put you on the path of blind obedience and the surrender of your precious faculties of reason and independent thought.

KG and Yoshiyahu's answers are better. They amount to "I have personal experience" and "Look at what these people have done". I happen to disagree with some of their examples and conclusions, but their approach is that of a thinking adult, not a credulous child or a cultist. All respect to them.

Myself? I had some Wing Chun from good teachers and found something I liked better taught by better teachers. I found that what I ended up in worked better for me and allowed me to at least hold my own and generally do quite well against some of my old Wing Chun friends who had at least as much time in grade as I.

You have to find out for yourself.
 

Si-Je

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This seems to be an age old debate.
Here are some facts:

Wing Chun is a fighting style designed specifically for combat, used in fighting life and death situational combat from the inception of it's birth.
It was designed for the Chinese Revolutionary fighters, designed to make and train effective fighters in a shorter amount of time. (instead of the 20 years or so it took for other kung fu)

Wing Chun is 100% self-defensive style with techniques that focus on the most direct and effective striking methods to achieve the immediate goal of incompasitating the opponent.

There is ground fighting technique in WC/WT, there is "grappling" defense in WC/WT. The chinese were well versed in these types of combat in the inception on WC/WT.

The best thing you can do you've already done much of.
Ask questions.
Research.
And now, when you find a school near you try it out. Get a feel for the instructor, the students, the teaching style, and the art. See if YOU feel and think it's effective.

As for the guy on the forum, those fellas that focus only on working with "non-compliant" opponents, there isn't really anything you can say that will change his mind. You'll train differently than they will. You'll focus more on technique, building sensitivity, flowing, speed, and internal power. Then you'll get to spar with non-compliant opponents. ;)
Just a different way of training.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Thank you for your response. I think it was a compliment I am still processing it mentally. Ha Ha..I am glad you didn't call me a cultist credulous cretan. Ha ha lol...

This Crack Fox character is far from being a moron. He's asked the only two important questions:

What do you know?
How do you know it?

MJM and YS's responses actually detract from the sum total of human knowledge. They're simply emotional reactions which come down to "If he asked you that he's an idiot" in about that many words. By saying that they put you on the path of blind obedience and the surrender of your precious faculties of reason and independent thought.

KG and Yoshiyahu's answers are better. They amount to "I have personal experience" and "Look at what these people have done". I happen to disagree with some of their examples and conclusions, but their approach is that of a thinking adult, not a credulous child or a cultist. All respect to them.

Myself? I had some Wing Chun from good teachers and found something I liked better taught by better teachers. I found that what I ended up in worked better for me and allowed me to at least hold my own and generally do quite well against some of my old Wing Chun friends who had at least as much time in grade as I.

You have to find out for yourself.
 

mook jong man

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I don't believe I am anything like a cultist , I have trained in other arts and can see the strengths in them , and also the weaknesses in the Wing Chun system .
If I was just a one eyed Wing Chun man I would not have gone on to learn shootfighting , Krav Maga and Kalis Ilustrisimo.
 

KamonGuy2

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I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike

Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc

I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)

I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I agree! I think even Mike Tyson broke his hand when he hit somebody in a bar or something becouse of the same reason. And the thing you speak of, I feel, is a very big problem in the martial arts as people tend to wrap themselves up in a bubble and they don't think anything can hurt them. And then something from outside that bubble comes and it screws them up badly. I think this is a very big problem in WC too. For clarifications on what I mean watch the link:

 
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mook jong man

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Eru Il繳vatar;1112093 said:
I agree! I think even Mike Tyson broke his hand when he hit somebody in a bar or something becouse of the same reason. And the thing you speak of, I feel, is a very big problem in the martial arts as people tend to wrap themselves up in a bubble and they don't think anything can hurt them. And then something from outside that bubble comes and it screws them up badly. I think this is a very big problem in WC too. For clarifications on what I mean watch the link:


Ah yes the old KI Master if I'm not mistaken , that goes far beyond being in a bubble .
That is what I call collective brain washing , his students were throwing punches at him from five feet out of range and he looked like he'd never been hit before .
I think in most reputable Wing Chun schools it would be different , or it should be .
In the school I went to in sparring we were encouraged to try and get through an instructors guard and hit them , because they sure as hell didn't mind hitting you .
Not enough force to really hurt you but you did get your fair share of cut lips , bloody noses , black eyes etc .
But with the Ki Masters school if you look up the word compliance in the dictionary a picture of him and his students would be there.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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But with the Ki Masters school if you look up the word compliance in the dictionary a picture of him and his students would be there.

lol :)

And yeah it's brainwashing. But the sad thing is that the brainwasher managed to brainwash himself...

This is a good one too:

And yes, people aren't this far gone usualy but if you look criticly enough you can see it allmost everywhere unfortunately. And yes, sparring is a very good way to check what works. Even tho there are rules.
 
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KamonGuy2

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Exactly! I got caught in the mouth last night, but it was so much fun I didn't mind!
It is a great teacher - getting hit. The best fighters are often the ones who get hit and keep coming, rather than the ones who have never been hit

Like Rocky says - It ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward...
 

Seeker

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I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike

Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc

I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)

I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective

This is no slam on Boxing, I have tons of respect for the sport. But how many times have we seen where two proffesional, in many cases champions get into an out of ring tussle with one another and the boxing goes right out the window. And often times (shudder) ending up on the ground.

I'm sure everyone has seen the Larry Holmes Vs.Trevor Berbick video before.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Well the ring is next best step to actual combat. Since you guys do not challenge people on street than the only other way for you to prove your martial arts is by getting in a ring. Now there is difference from on the street and in the ring. Thats what street challenges are for. Now you could challenge people to light contact fight in the street. Or hard contact with a mouth piece and a cup an no gloves. But as for street fighting an boxers. Take someone like Mike Tyson. If he was to fight in a the street fight and he did of course. What do you think the out come would be. The other guy was hurt badly.

Mike Tyson remained skilled with wrappings and with out wrappings. He still knew how to mixed it up in the street and out the street. Some of these cage fighters and ring fighters who do muay thai no how to adpat to gloves and with out them. So you run into them on the street they won't hurt their hand...but your face and shins and ribs may be hurt if not broke!



I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike

Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc

I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)

I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective
 

Si-Je

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I love those chi brainwashing videos! Very funny and very scary. But, Dim Mak is no big secret, lol!
Study your acupressure/puncture, the meridians and what the points affect even for healing and you'll use the same points to hurt.
If you can hurt you can heal and vise versa.
Chi and hard Ki aren't something that a video is gonna prove right or wrong for you. The paramedics were shocked by the man's students physical reation to the "touchless chi". Powerful brainwashing sure. But, can you tell from a video?

Maybe these journalists are faking to sell the documentary?

look at this guy, cool video:
Is he just blowing out the candles?

Ripley's believe it or not could be all faking you:

These guys can look just as fake, and I've seen alot of guff from folks on other forums and boards (this one is very respectful and that's why I like it :)
Can you tell if their faking here?
What about here? Is his student just pretending to push hard?

Isn't chi Sau all about chi, intention, and flowing of "energy" or chi of the opponent.

It's all about how open your mind is, and what your willing to give a shot on. :)
Don't believe everything from everyone that claims chi, but don't shut yourself off from the possibility.
 
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