Hello i have been doing wing chun for over a year and all i hear of people is wing chun isnt effective it is rubbish. It is alwayse getting bad mouthed as a martial art the only people who say it is effective is other wing chun partitoners. People say it isnt no good on the ground but aparently you cant get a good wing chun partitioner on the ground does anyone think that wing chun is a full effective fighting system or am i wasting my time in learning it THANK YOU
wing chun effectiveness
- Thread starter KUNGOPO1
- Start date
jarrod
Senior Master
i've seen effective chunners & ineffective chunners. the notion that you can't get a good chunner on the ground is completely false.
if you're doubting your training, i would go spar at a couple other schools & see how it goes. if you get utterly demolished by people around your experience level, maybe move on.
jf
if you're doubting your training, i would go spar at a couple other schools & see how it goes. if you get utterly demolished by people around your experience level, maybe move on.
jf
And not all Wing Chun 'schools' are created equal, just because people claim to know it, doesnt mean they do, then they get their butt kicked and it makes WC look bad.. my SIFU was a kickboxer before he went to WC, and 'thought' he was bad, until one day his SIFI put him to the test, and the student was defeated badly.. Its not so much the art as it is the person, fighting spirit.. WC is effective, so are alot of other MA's.. if you have fighting spirit, and are willing to give all to it, Bruce Lee was bad! 5'7, 135lbs... and early on used WC and kicked butt.. But this is one opinion.
WT/WC/VT will give you the tools for effective fighting skills.
As already stated, some schools are better than others.
As for whether it is effective on the ground....it can be with the proper approach, but let's be realistic...it ain't BJJ, so the best approach for us chunners is not to fight on the ground, rather if we end up there, fight to get back on our feet.
WT is first and foremost a boxing style. Everyone seems to obsess about how it's no good on the ground. Do these same people gripe that western boxers don't kick?
As already stated, some schools are better than others.
As for whether it is effective on the ground....it can be with the proper approach, but let's be realistic...it ain't BJJ, so the best approach for us chunners is not to fight on the ground, rather if we end up there, fight to get back on our feet.
WT is first and foremost a boxing style. Everyone seems to obsess about how it's no good on the ground. Do these same people gripe that western boxers don't kick?
Or cross train! I know i might get verbally "backhanded" here, but Bruce Lee had the right idea, he only completed about 60% of the Wing Chun system with Yip Man! He was effective with it, but realized the need for cross training, for defense with situations were the fight hits the ground.
Im not saying change or alter WC, just add to it!
Im not saying change or alter WC, just add to it!
mook jong man
Senior Master
Leejunfan is spot on , they're not all created equal.
I've seen some Wing Chun systems that are so different from the one that I practice that they might as well be a different martial art altogether.
Their fighting stances are different , their hand techniques are very indirect and use three moves to do the job that should be accomplished in one.
Some of them seem to lack the close range , in your face aggression and speed that is needed to overwhelm and off balance the opponent .
Some will also spend way too much time training in a very pedestrian and gentle type of chi sau.
This is not a bad thing in itself if you are working on a particular aspect like the angles of your arms , relaxation , stance etc.
But it should not be all that you do , it should not be at the expense of time spent doing hard chi sau sparring.
The type of sparring where you think " If I lose concentration for just one nanosecond I'm going to get a smack in the mouth ".
As well as the contact reflexes , a decent part of training time should also be spent on drilling reflexes from out of contact range against various hand , leg and grappling attacks.
To be able to bring our tactile sensitivity to bear and close down the opponent we have to first intercept anything coming in and close the gap , and for this we have to rely on our eyes first and then touch.
This hand / eye coordination has to be developed by doing a lot of repetitions of defensive techniques in various pattern sequences against different types of attack.
For example a simple one would be defend left round punch hi , right round punch hi , left uppercut punch low , right uppercut punch low , that is a simple four corner sequence .
When the sequence can be defended against with speed and correctness of movement , then the partner will throw the punches at random and while being mobile.
This type of training principle can also be applied to kicking attacks etc.
I think a good test to see if your Wing Chun techniques are effective is can you handle a flurry of boxing combinations thrown at you at extreme speed and have the ability to move in and stick and control his arms.
I'm not talking about him throwing a punch and pausing so that you can do your nice simultaneous counter attack before he throws his next punch.
I'm talking about them coming in so fast and strung together from all angles that you have to stick and use your chi sau to strike through and deflect with both arms independently to stop him.
It all comes down to what you put in and how you train , if you choose not to train realistically then don't be too surprised the first time some bloke throws a lightening fast jab at you and you can't even see it let alone stop it.
I'm also a great believer in grappling ability , some people are of the opinion that if your stance is top notch you won't be able to be taken down.
I say those people probably also believe in the tooth fairy , whilst a great stance is important it doesn't mean you are magically immune to being thrown or grappled and doesn't mean you can't be tackled to the ground from behind or trip over something in the environment.
Instead of living in a state of denial , why not prepare for all eventualities and do some ground based training , clinch etc.
Wing Chun is a boxing system that specializes in close range striking whilst controlling the opponent , in my opinion it was never meant to be the swiss army knife of martial arts .
There is no martial art that is totally complete in my opinion , there are always going to be deficiencies in some area.
I've seen some Wing Chun systems that are so different from the one that I practice that they might as well be a different martial art altogether.
Their fighting stances are different , their hand techniques are very indirect and use three moves to do the job that should be accomplished in one.
Some of them seem to lack the close range , in your face aggression and speed that is needed to overwhelm and off balance the opponent .
Some will also spend way too much time training in a very pedestrian and gentle type of chi sau.
This is not a bad thing in itself if you are working on a particular aspect like the angles of your arms , relaxation , stance etc.
But it should not be all that you do , it should not be at the expense of time spent doing hard chi sau sparring.
The type of sparring where you think " If I lose concentration for just one nanosecond I'm going to get a smack in the mouth ".
As well as the contact reflexes , a decent part of training time should also be spent on drilling reflexes from out of contact range against various hand , leg and grappling attacks.
To be able to bring our tactile sensitivity to bear and close down the opponent we have to first intercept anything coming in and close the gap , and for this we have to rely on our eyes first and then touch.
This hand / eye coordination has to be developed by doing a lot of repetitions of defensive techniques in various pattern sequences against different types of attack.
For example a simple one would be defend left round punch hi , right round punch hi , left uppercut punch low , right uppercut punch low , that is a simple four corner sequence .
When the sequence can be defended against with speed and correctness of movement , then the partner will throw the punches at random and while being mobile.
This type of training principle can also be applied to kicking attacks etc.
I think a good test to see if your Wing Chun techniques are effective is can you handle a flurry of boxing combinations thrown at you at extreme speed and have the ability to move in and stick and control his arms.
I'm not talking about him throwing a punch and pausing so that you can do your nice simultaneous counter attack before he throws his next punch.
I'm talking about them coming in so fast and strung together from all angles that you have to stick and use your chi sau to strike through and deflect with both arms independently to stop him.
It all comes down to what you put in and how you train , if you choose not to train realistically then don't be too surprised the first time some bloke throws a lightening fast jab at you and you can't even see it let alone stop it.
I'm also a great believer in grappling ability , some people are of the opinion that if your stance is top notch you won't be able to be taken down.
I say those people probably also believe in the tooth fairy , whilst a great stance is important it doesn't mean you are magically immune to being thrown or grappled and doesn't mean you can't be tackled to the ground from behind or trip over something in the environment.
Instead of living in a state of denial , why not prepare for all eventualities and do some ground based training , clinch etc.
Wing Chun is a boxing system that specializes in close range striking whilst controlling the opponent , in my opinion it was never meant to be the swiss army knife of martial arts .
There is no martial art that is totally complete in my opinion , there are always going to be deficiencies in some area.
I agree, its structure! repetition??.. absolutely! Bruce lee also said. " fight every chance you get.." you may learn technique, but if they are honed in some kind of combat proofing, its like having a flashlight in your car you dont know if it works or not, you want to test that baby before you have a flat tire or something.
dungeonworks
Black Belt
No, but their are a TON of claims that Wing Chun works better or as good as say, BJJ on the ground. That is where the obsessing comes from...ground fighters that know better and Wing Chunner's that have no clue about grappling.
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Nice topic. Good to remind people that wing chun is an effective art and one worth doing
I have trained in martial arts for almost three decades and it is one of the better styles I have learnt
You can get bad schools within styles - I have been to terrible BJJ, karate, TKD, CKD, Escrima and MT schools/gyms/dojos, but I would not judge their arts by that. People tend to whinge about wing chun because it doesnt have much link to the cage. It is a ridiculous argument - the cage is nothing like the street. You have gloves on, mouthguards in, a set of rules you must follow, an octagon you must stay in, and you know the person you are fighting. It is still a tough envronment and most of the cage fighters could easily handle street confrontations, but it is not really streetfighting
I use wing chun with other styles but there are some extremely good 'pure' practitioners who could use just their chun to take people apart
A great testimony to how good wing chun is, is by the following link
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/BlackBelts.aspx
This is how may black belts have come to Kamon (there were more, but some dont want to be on the website)
I have trained in martial arts for almost three decades and it is one of the better styles I have learnt
You can get bad schools within styles - I have been to terrible BJJ, karate, TKD, CKD, Escrima and MT schools/gyms/dojos, but I would not judge their arts by that. People tend to whinge about wing chun because it doesnt have much link to the cage. It is a ridiculous argument - the cage is nothing like the street. You have gloves on, mouthguards in, a set of rules you must follow, an octagon you must stay in, and you know the person you are fighting. It is still a tough envronment and most of the cage fighters could easily handle street confrontations, but it is not really streetfighting
I use wing chun with other styles but there are some extremely good 'pure' practitioners who could use just their chun to take people apart
A great testimony to how good wing chun is, is by the following link
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/BlackBelts.aspx
This is how may black belts have come to Kamon (there were more, but some dont want to be on the website)
Amen brother!!
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Two things...your spirit and how hard you train....two cents...(oh and don't forget the most important thing understanding W.T. principles!)
Working constantly to build your structure, teaching you muscles to react instantly, kinda like driving a car, once you learn how, it become a 'mindless' function, an instinctive reaction to fight situations.
"the techniques you learn are meant to be forgotton.." Bruce Lee
They are not truely forgotton, actual thought is too slow, but instinct is hard to beat..!
"the techniques you learn are meant to be forgotton.." Bruce Lee
They are not truely forgotton, actual thought is too slow, but instinct is hard to beat..!
I studyed Wing Chun for about 6 years here in Australia before the school closed. I felt it was effective although i feel the way we trained, limited our development. Too much working on block/strike drills. Not enough work on random attacks and other styles. As well as we always trained WC vs WC, which was fine at the time.
However....
Now i am training Hapkido in a school with numerous TKD students. All of a sudden i found a hole in my game with the new found idea of people shooting in fast kicks or snappy jabs then backing off. I try to close the gap but then you would run out of room (many groups on the matt, so once you close you have to reset) , compared to my old school of fire a shot then both close gap. However when they change up and close on me i generally have a much easier time as they come into my game. Very few of them seem to know how to handle the roll punch, they sort of see it coming then cover up and run off leaving lots of gaps.
Like any system it is as effective as the trainer/student. To those who say it sucks on the ground. Who says you want to always end up on the ground??? If you have 3 people attacking you on the street, i would rather be good at striking and avoiding being grabbed/ good positioning which this system and the right Sifu will teach.
Cheers. Luke
However....
Now i am training Hapkido in a school with numerous TKD students. All of a sudden i found a hole in my game with the new found idea of people shooting in fast kicks or snappy jabs then backing off. I try to close the gap but then you would run out of room (many groups on the matt, so once you close you have to reset) , compared to my old school of fire a shot then both close gap. However when they change up and close on me i generally have a much easier time as they come into my game. Very few of them seem to know how to handle the roll punch, they sort of see it coming then cover up and run off leaving lots of gaps.
Like any system it is as effective as the trainer/student. To those who say it sucks on the ground. Who says you want to always end up on the ground??? If you have 3 people attacking you on the street, i would rather be good at striking and avoiding being grabbed/ good positioning which this system and the right Sifu will teach.
Cheers. Luke
Sorry, Im just getting over the comment of getting caught by TKD guys lol
They might have been able to touch you but there wouldnt have been any power in it...
Some TKD guys are good but it is a sport art and basically a watered down version of Muay Thai
Before people start jumping in defending TKD - I trained extensively in TKD and CKD and had no problem taking those guys apart. As a sport art and a cardio workout it is second to none. But as a fighting art it is ridiculous
This is what I meant earlier by arts should stick to what they are good at
Chun is not a sport and it is just as ridiculous to suggest that chun should get in the cage as it is to suggest that TKD is a street based art
But you are spot on with your comment about training random attacks. This is extremely important and something a lot of London chun schools do from day one. Sparring with heavy gloves is essential for training too, even if you are a traditional based wing chun school - it develops movement and a 'shock factor' when you get hit
I agree also, at a certain level WC students need to spar, or at least get to defend themselves against something NON WC.. against boxing techniques, or even TKD kicks, in china WC is legendary, but think about it they were mainly fighting others with kung fu skills, WC, Hung Gar etc.. but here we have brawlers, boxers..most of it non kung fu.
In a perfect world, there shouldnt even be sparring, my SIFU says in a fight you move in, do what damage you can quickly and once your opponant is down, you run! Its all about speed and power! Your advantage is a street fighter doesnt know what your trained in.. and if WC saves your life one time!!?
In a perfect world, there shouldnt even be sparring, my SIFU says in a fight you move in, do what damage you can quickly and once your opponant is down, you run! Its all about speed and power! Your advantage is a street fighter doesnt know what your trained in.. and if WC saves your life one time!!?
mook jong man
Senior Master
Wing Chun is a scientific method of learning to generate force and overcome force efficiently , using the least amount of muscular strength possible.
While its very worth while to have a working knowledge and have practiced against some of the delivery systems and tactics that other martial arts use , it would be near on impossible to cover them all .
Thats why I believe it is easier to break it down into either linear attacks or circular attacks.
Whether its a boxers straight right or a karate reverse punch , its still coming in straight . Whether its a boxers hook or your girlfriend trying to slap you in the face , they are both still circular , just using different delivery systems.
The directions of the forces involved are still the same , they are just executed differently.
So it follows that the technique you use to redirect both examples of linear strikes will be the same , and although using a different technique the same principle applies to both examples of circular attacks.
This is one of the great strengths of Wing Chun , our mind isn't cluttered up with so many different responses to what is in effect the same type of attack.
Instead we have a small repertoire of movements that can suit a variety of different applications .
Once the opponent makes contact with our arms he has now entered our world .
A force is a force and if you have practiced chi sau for a while you should have experienced them all by now . Their force can be tense and rigid , fluid and relaxed , focused on your centre , bullishly going forward, pushing down , pushing to one side , moving back etc ,etc.
You should be able to redirect whatever force is coming at you and use the appropriate technique to take advantage of their force.
Of course this takes a lot of hard training to be able to apply at a realistic speed , in particular learning to be sensitive enough to perceive force and pivot in the appropriate direction and at the same time keeping forward force and using the correct arm movements to put the opponent in a vulnerable position.
While its very worth while to have a working knowledge and have practiced against some of the delivery systems and tactics that other martial arts use , it would be near on impossible to cover them all .
Thats why I believe it is easier to break it down into either linear attacks or circular attacks.
Whether its a boxers straight right or a karate reverse punch , its still coming in straight . Whether its a boxers hook or your girlfriend trying to slap you in the face , they are both still circular , just using different delivery systems.
The directions of the forces involved are still the same , they are just executed differently.
So it follows that the technique you use to redirect both examples of linear strikes will be the same , and although using a different technique the same principle applies to both examples of circular attacks.
This is one of the great strengths of Wing Chun , our mind isn't cluttered up with so many different responses to what is in effect the same type of attack.
Instead we have a small repertoire of movements that can suit a variety of different applications .
Once the opponent makes contact with our arms he has now entered our world .
A force is a force and if you have practiced chi sau for a while you should have experienced them all by now . Their force can be tense and rigid , fluid and relaxed , focused on your centre , bullishly going forward, pushing down , pushing to one side , moving back etc ,etc.
You should be able to redirect whatever force is coming at you and use the appropriate technique to take advantage of their force.
Of course this takes a lot of hard training to be able to apply at a realistic speed , in particular learning to be sensitive enough to perceive force and pivot in the appropriate direction and at the same time keeping forward force and using the correct arm movements to put the opponent in a vulnerable position.
Poor Uke
Green Belt
Please dobnt take this the wrong way, as I agree with the rest of your post re. WC.
Wing Chun IS NOT a scientific method!
There said it.
