wing chun effectiveness

[zepedawingchun]

Again you should know better than this Prof. Where are the scientific studies to proove that one styles mechanics are more effective than anothers?

Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRu0UaZTbVI&feature=related

 

[geezer]

Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRu0UaZTbVI&feature=related

No, that's garbage science and the info presented is incomplete. That's why a lot of boxers and MMA guys think we are full of it. To hit with maximum power, you need to hit with the whole body and draw force all the way down through your stance to the ground. You and I know this, and how to do it with a WC punch, Zepeda, but a non chunner would look at that clip and say "BS!" Can you blame them?

 

[zepedawingchun]

No, that's garbage science and the info presented is incomplete. That's why a lot of boxers and MMA guys think we are full of it. To hit with maximum power, you need to hit with the whole body and draw force all the way down through your stance to the ground. You and I know this, and how to do it with a WC punch, Zepeda, but a non chunner would look at that clip and say "BS!" Can you blame them?

What I meant to say was does this count as scientific studies. Yes, how the punch is demonstrated is incomplete.

 

[dungeonworks]

Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRu0UaZTbVI&feature=related

In short, HELL NO! Good visuals, but it was still Bill Duff, an ex bush league American Football player explaining the intricacies of a complex art! (Sorry, could not resist the Bill Duff pun! )

...but I did like that show!

 

[Poor Uke]

Nope, they train CLINCHWORK which is not classed or defined as closequarter. Closequarter martial arts refer to striking arts (grappling is obviously grappling and is CLOSER than close quarter)

Two words - Mauy Thai

Arnis does not really train close quarter and to be honest is pretty poor as a striking style - before you kick off, I have trained escrima (ARNIS and KALI) for several years under various teachers

The style I am being taught encompasses closerange even as you define it. Also doesnt hitting people with sticks count as striking?

Judo is more of a concept art - I use it solely for increasing balance and stance work. To actually defeat an opponent I would never use that style. It definately does not use minimal energy and efficient movements.

I agree with Jarrod

Poor Uke - you have a silly habit of nitpicking people's posts on here for irrelevant things. This is frequently leading to off topic conversations and if it continues I will simply block your messages

Why because I disagree with you?

You're the one who brought it up and I disagree...that's known as disscussion and this is a disscussion board after all!

 

[KamonGuy2]

Two words - Mauy Thai!

Muay Thai mostly uses inefficient striking. If you re-read my posts we were talking about the efficiency of a strike, not the end result

The style I am being taught encompasses closerange even as you define it. Also doesnt hitting people with sticks count as striking?!

Nope. That is a weapon art. You might as well start arguing that a gun is the most eficient way of dropping someone. It's probably true but off topic. As an art. escrima is very inefficient

I agree with Jarrod

You would

Why because I disagree with you?
You're the one who brought it up and I disagree...that's known as disscussion and this is a disscussion board after all!

Discussion and nitpicking are two seperate things. You have not contributed anything of relevance here. Instead you have just made one line statements that are nothing but argumentative.

I think from now on, Im just going to ignore your posts as you havent really understood the concept of productive discussion. Bye

 

[Poor Uke]

I think from now on, Im just going to ignore your posts as you havent really understood the concept of productive discussion. Bye

I think this is for the best, especially if you believe that...

Muay Thai mostly uses inefficient striking.

I mean c'mon....

 

[dungeonworks]

Muay Thai mostly uses inefficient striking. If you re-read my posts we were talking about the efficiency of a strike, not the end result...

Hey Kamon, can you expand on this thought? I disagree that MT is inefficient striking and am curious to your thoughts on this. I found the MT kicks far easier to learn and generate massive amounts of improved power in my kicking abilities. I also found them easier to do overall, therefore i would argue more efficient. In Karate and TKD, there were soooo many little intricacies and mechanics of the kicks that it took a while for myself to get full utilization of them in a sparring or combat environment. The Muay Thai kicks were very natural to my ranges of motion and I picked them up quite quickly (Maybe from previous Karate an TKD).

 

[KamonGuy2]

Hey Kamon, can you expand on this thought? I disagree that MT is inefficient striking and am curious to your thoughts on this. I found the MT kicks far easier to learn and generate massive amounts of improved power in my kicking abilities. I also found them easier to do overall, therefore i would argue more efficient. In Karate and TKD, there were soooo many little intricacies and mechanics of the kicks that it took a while for myself to get full utilization of them in a sparring or combat environment. The Muay Thai kicks were very natural to my ranges of motion and I picked them up quite quickly (Maybe from previous Karate an TKD).

I think people are getting confused here. Efficient striking is basically economic striking that works a majority of the time. In Muay Thai, unless you are partnered with someone very good, you have to use several kicks and strikes to damage your opponent. Whereas a stamping palm to the face (nose) will cause huge damage to your opponent and is easy to pull off. The same goes for wing chun fut saos and punches.

Muay Thai is a good art, but not efficient. Most moves require the fighter to pull back before striking. Whilst there is a lot of power in Muay Thai strikes, they are fairly inefficient

The best example is watching 'The Contender - Asia', which had some very good fighters in it. Most of the fights resulted in no knockdown, and the fights were drawn out. Whereas a lot of the basic moves, traps, energy in wing chun would finish fights quickly

Let me put it another way - when I train wing chun, I am barely out of breath after sparring. After Muay Thai or karate, I am knackered. The reason is that Muay Thai asks for bigger movement.

Trust me when I say I am not saying uay Thai is rubbish - I woudlnt train it if it was no good. I am merely pointing out the difference in training and that wing chun uses the most efficient moves around

 

[Poor Uke]

OK I get that thanks Kamon

 

[geezer]

Muay Thai is a good art, but not efficient. Most moves require the fighter to pull back before striking. Whilst there is a lot of power in Muay Thai strikes, they are fairly inefficient...

Let me put it another way - when I train wing chun, I am barely out of breath after sparring. After Muay Thai or karate, I am knackered...

I think people were confusing "efficient" with "effective". Both MT and WC are effecive in different ways. But WC is gets really "high milage"... like a small, well-designed and efficient car. Still, a lot of people would rather drive a Hummer and watch the Monster Truck competitions on TV.

 

[dungeonworks]

Hey Kamon, after working Thai elbows for about 2 hrs today in my JKD class, I see what you are saying. DANG am I sore....but holy keeeerist could I wreck somebody's day with those things! I have learned elbows in karate, but the Thai's take it to a new level! Today was the most exposure to Thai elbows I have had....or ANY style elbows. Snap elbows to be exact.

Whilst we are still on the topic of efficiency, what makes a technique efficient in your (anyone in this topic's) opinion? Are we talking least amount of physical exertion or most damage for spent energy on a strike or technique? To me, I can FEEL/generate so much more power using Thai style strikes....the harder I throw, the more power that transmits through my target, sometimes at the expense of speed, or getting the strike off. Ironically, where I feel more efficiency and effectiveness of my Wing Chun (and panatukan) is on the ground striking. Keep in mind, i am far from being a well versed chunner by any means, so I am seeing things from different eyes here. In my stand up fighting, I am far more comfortable with my kickboxing than anything else because that is my root, along with Koei Kan Karate Do. In otherwords, it could be a case of my lack of WC exposure compared to Karate or Kickboxing more than anything else and why the Thai boxing is coming more naturally to me.

 

[Tensei85]

I think really what makes an effective technique, is that in Wing Chun we strive for Simplicity, Efficiency, Directness which becomes the core of the System. It's what defines Wing Chun becoming the Principles of the System and that is how we relate all our syllabus to fall back to that umbrella so to say. That being said we develop the system to meet that quota with our Gate theory which maps out our Box so to say and our range of motion is established, we then have the Centerline theory(Though not only in Wing Chun, but is a trademark that we identify with), Straightline(Again not only in Wing Chun) this is how we utilize what's shortest & most direct (Shortest distance between two points...), Then we have the Deui Ying (Facing, we always utilize facing so as to limit our own range of motions so as not to depart from Efficient usage of the body), we have Long Bridge/Short Bridge which represent how we bridge with the opponent these all stay within the Gate Theory, of course Two parts work as one (We strive to use more than one tool at the same time so as to limit the drawing out of an encounter & to maximize our results in a minimum amount of time), We then have hand replacement which correlates to our reference points thus staying in line with Wing Chun mechanics as well as covering our gates.

The list can go on, but really what I'm trying to get at is this. Wing Chun was devised as a System that smaller individuals could use(Not saying big guys/girls can't...) with the least amount of energy to provide the maximum results so that being the case everything we do is to strive for that frame of reference, and its only natural that the Wing Chun syllabus would strive just as well for that.

Hopefully some of that jargon makes sense, haha if not apologies.

 

[Domino]

Efficiency and techniques?
I got slated for posting a gif, does exactly that.

Long bridge last night Tensei

 

[turninghorse]

That would really depend on who you are doing the chi sau sparring with .
One of my instructors used to be a bouncer in New Zealand , one of his favourite things to do in chi sau sparring was if a guy had long hair he would pierce through with his Tan Sau and drag them straight down to the floor by the hair.

He also used to palm strike me so hard in the ribs that I would go home and have a shower and I would have his actual hand prints still on my rib cage .

Also if you had an earring you would take that out as well before that got slammed into the side of your head. I remember actually getting through him once and cracking him straight in the cheek bone with a decent shot and all he did was smile and say good hit.

I was absolutely intimidated by him , but he made me what I am today.
He was very hard and brutal man inside the school but outside the school he was a very nice man who would give you the shirt off his back and treat you as an equal.

My Sifu is like this as well. It is hard, but nothing worth learning comes without cost.