Why so nasty?

[Apache26b]

Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?

 

[WC_lun]

You need an experienced instructor to guide you and you need quality training partners. It is very, very, difficult to spot bad habits you are forming by yourself. It is impossible to train out those bad habits if you do not know they are there. Skills that are untested are pretty much theorycraft and very unreliable when you need those skills for real. There is a huge difference from seeing techniques on a dvd or reading about them in a book and actualy feeling how they work, or maybe just as importantly, feeling when they don't work. You need quality training partners for these things.

It sucks that you are in a situation that does not allow you to study at a training hall you feel is right for you. DvDs and such can help you keep your interest up and help you keep your mind working on martial arts. In no way is it a substitute for an experienced instructor though. In my opinion, anyone that wants to sell you a black belt through DvDs, books, or Youtube is just ripping you off. Save your money until you can study at a place you feel comfortable with.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm. First off, I don't think anyone here has ever really been "nasty" about DVD programs and their ilk, nor have they "trashed" them, but have given honest opinions of such training methods. And that opinion is rather universal amongst serious and experienced martial artists, namely that it just isn't a good idea. There are just too many issues with vital pieces of the instruction missing, correction not really being possible, and more. And the sad reality of such things are that if you aren't in a position to learn an art, then you aren't in a position to learn an art. You then have two choices; either move to where you can learn it and change your circumstances to allow it, or accept that you can't learn it at this point in time. That's not nasty, it's just reality. Think of it like attending Harvard - unless you are living near Harvard, you can't attend it. You can attend other universities, but not that one. And that is something that is not nasty, it's reality.

DVDs and books form good supplements to actual instruction, but cannot take the place of actual instruction by themselves. The big issue here, though, isn't whether or not DVD learning is a good idea or not, it's whether you can accept other people's opinions and what the reality of the situation is. You've just arrived on this site, resurrected a thread on "Nasty Instructors" 9 years after the last post to complain about someone who took you for a ride (a negative thread and post), and started this one, which is a complaint and negative statement on this entire site, as there is not much support for your approach. I kinda hate to be so blunt, but frankly, deal with it.

If you do not have access to the system you wish to study, you don't have access to the system you wish to study. That's really the long and the short of it. DVD learning is a poor substitute at best.

 

[rainesr]

Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids.

I have been in your situation, I was in the USAF. I had to study at mutiple schools and after years of training had no black belt, though I had four white belts. It is very frustrating. Have you looked outside your travel range and maybe considered once a month one on one meetings with an instructor. It is not optimal but it may be better than taking something you are not happy with, especialy if you are motivated to work on your own. I did this once and it turned out to be a good experience.

I have used DVDs, but I only had them for forms that had been studing for nearly 10 years, from the perspective of three instructors, I had a solid base in my art and I had a training partner who also knew and understood these forms. I never tried to learn completely new techniques, forms, and definately not a style without an instructor. DVDs were only used to keep me sharp with what I already knew.

The bad habits you will inadvertantly learn are not worth the time it will take to undo them.

~Rob

 

[The Last Legionary]

I have yet to find a dvd player that can give good feedback on how my form looked, or if I had my feet in the right spots. If you don't understand the importance of having someone tell you if you're doing it right, you are condemned to memorizing errors which later are very hard to 'unlearn'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?

I think you have misread it, especially here on MT.

I will leave the discussion of distance-learning to others; it appears that you understand it is not optimal training, but that is the situation you find yourself in. Others in this thread have repeated what has been said before; it's not optimal without feedback from a live instructor.

However regarding what one may consider oneself; that's a horse of a different color. Here on MT, I think we strive not to judge others. We all know that what one discipline considers a 'black belt' is not the same as what another considers a 'black belt'. We could argue about that forever; and it does not just involve distance learning; many of us have personal opinions about other styles and methods and what they ultimately mean to training. We even have arguments about training for competition or sport versus training for self-defense, training with weapons versus empty-handed training, and so on and so on.

Ultimately, 'black belt' has very little meaning outside of one's own style. Who is a 'second rate member'? No one, on MT. We're all treated with the respect we're due based on how we behave here and how we treat others.

Some of our members, I have no doubt, do not train at all. Perhaps they have never trained. Perhaps they trained long ago and no longer train. Some teach. Some are students. Some are engaging in Walter Mitty fantasies. Oh well. Some don't disclose what training they have or what discipline they train in. If they behave themselves and treat the rest of us with respect, they're treated with respect.

If you want to take on a challenge, go ahead with your distance learning and show us how you apply it. Tell us about your experiences and what you think it means to you, how it affects you and your idea of how your training is worth your time, effort, and money. We've never had anyone do that here, to the best of my knowledge. What we have had here are people who show up, ask about our opinion of distance learning for martial arts, dozens of us post our generally-negative opinions of it, they go away and never come back. Are they training anyway? Did they take our advice? Is the general wisdom wrong? We have no idea. So show us!

Bottom line; welcome to Martial Talk. Treat others with respect and you'll be respected. No one can tell you what a black belt means; it's subjective, not objective. Ultimately, if the training you get works for you, you like it, you keep at it, and you feel you've invested your time, effort, and money wisely, then it's worth it - for you. We'll listen; talk to us.

 

[MJS]

Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?

IMHO, I think if someone asks a question, its best to give them an honest, up front, non sugar coated answer. Thats what I do. Some will be offended by that, some wont. To each his own. I give a suggestion....which is find a quality teacher. I can't force someone to do that, so if they want to buy a dvd and attempt to learn from it, then it is what it is.

I have a few instructional dvds, however, they're in arts that I've trained in. I've never done TKD, so I'm not going to buy a TKD dvd and attempt to learn from that, when I'll no doubt, be missing numerous fine points. Instead, I'd get myself to a TKD school. IMO, if I was in your situation, I'd rather get in some training where/when I can, at a dojo, with a teacher who can teach me. How often are you on the move? Are you settled in one place? If so, for how long? Have you researched any schools in your area and the surrounding area? How far are you willing to travel to train? If there was a school that was 1 1/2 hrs 1 way, would you go? Personally, if there was a school that was 90min away, I'd rather get in some quality training, and see if you could fit in some private lessons.

I've been training for 26yrs. Could I pick up a TKD dvd and learn from it? Yeah, maybe, and that'd only be because of the length of time that I've already put in. I mean, the main difference will probably be application of the moves, but OTOH, I'm still going to be missing the fine points that are not on the dvd.

Good luck with whatever path you decide to choose.

 

[Apache26b]

Mr. Parker I am new to forums. I did not realise that I was reviving a 9 year old discussion. I will try and pay closer attention in the future. And I realise my opening post may have come off as a bit hostile. So if you or anyone else was offended by it I apologise.

 

[Apache26b]

Mr. Mattocks thank you sir. I believe you understood what I was asking better than some. I was talking to the view of the person more than the view of the training method. It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat. Lol Maybe the reason that others who have asked didn't return was because they felt like they wouldn't have been respected at all. Yes I completely realise that this is not the best way to learn. BY FAR. But you do what you can. As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.

 

[Apache26b]

I have been in your situation, I was in the USAF. I had to study at mutiple schools and after years of training had no black belt, though I had four white belts. It is very frustrating. Have you looked outside your travel range and maybe considered once a month one on one meetings with an instructor. It is not optimal but it may be better than taking something you are not happy with, especialy if you are motivated to work on your own. I did this once and it turned out to be a good experience.I have used DVDs, but I only had them for forms that had been studing for nearly 10 years, from the perspective of three instructors, I had a solid base in my art and I had a training partner who also knew and understood these forms. I never tried to learn completely new techniques, forms, and definately not a style without an instructor. DVDs were only used to keep me sharp with what I already knew. The bad habits you will inadvertantly learn are not worth the time it will take to undo them. ~Rob

No I had not thought about that. After reading your post I looked and there is a Kajukenbo school 3 hours from me. I will contact the instructor and see if they would do something like that and if so if I can afford it. Thank you.

 

[Apache26b]

Thank you sir. I believe you understood what I was asking better than some. I was talking to the view of the person more than the view of the training method. It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat. Lol Maybe the reason that others who have asked didn't return because they felt like they wouldn't have been respected as equals. Yes I completely realise that this is not the best way to learn. BY FAR. As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.

 

[punisher73]

I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is. You mentioned that you have experience in a few different styles as you moved around. Do you have a particular dvd set in mind based on your previous training? Are you looking at something new altogether?

What is your ultimate goal?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat.

That is probably because the question gets asked a lot here (and I presume, on other such forums as well). If some folks sound angry, it's probably that they're frustrated. The typical exchange looks something like this:

Q: Hi! I'm new here, 17 years old, keen to start learning, but I don't want to drive anywhere or invest any time in training, and I don't really like to sweat either. So I was wondering, if I bought this DVD I found in the back of a martial arts magazine, will it really work? My buddy and I are going to go in together on it and we'll train really hard.

A: No, it probably won't work well. First, many of these DVDs are put together by charlatans who would happily award a black belt to a small shrubbery if the check cleared. Second, without feedback from a qualified instructor, you are quite likely to learn very bad habits that will become difficult if not impossible to unlearn later if you get 'real' in-person training. Third, the DVD will most likely get about as much use as your stationary bicycle that is down in the basement next to washing machine and is now used as a hanger for clothes. You'll fart around with it for a couple months, watch some martial arts movies, decide you've mastered it, get your 'black belt' in the mail, and move on to the next shiny thing to catch your eye. Why don't you find a local martial arts studio and invest your time and money into some real training?

Q: Well, I think I *can* learn from a DVD, and I *won't* just do it for a couple months and then quit, because I'm *real serious* about this and I won't quit until I'm the best, you'll see. And there are no dojos near me anyway, I live 30 miles from the nearest city.

A: Consider driving to the city instead.

Q: Well, I don't have a car and I lost my license anyway and gas costs money and I don't have a job either.

A: If you're serious about training, you'll find a way to learn from an actual instructor. Most instructors will work with you and be understanding of your situation. They may let you come in every so often for checkups and give you assignments to practice at home; you'll soon see improvements if you have feedback from a real instructor, and your hard work and sacrifice to get to real training will make you value your training that much more. People who really want something find a way to do it. That's not to say that sometimes things are not easy, but where there is a will, 99% of the time, there is a way.

Q: Well, I don't want to do any of those things, and I think you're all just negative people and I'm going to order the training DVD's anyway and then you'll see.

A: OK, then. You asked our opinion, we gave it to you. It seems you already had your mind made up, so we're not sure why you asked us for advice if you were just going to get ticked off by it. Good luck.

Q: [crickets]

I'm exaggerating a bit, but not that much; typical exchanges really do look like this quite often. So I can see where you're coming from; it looks from the outside like we're a bunch of mean people who just hate the idea of someone being able to learn from a DVD (or a book, that gets asked sometimes too). If it seems we send newbies to the corner for five minutes for mentioning DVD training, it's because the typical exchange is so common, and so predictable. Not your fault, you didn't know that!

You say you have trained, so you must know that, and as you stated, you're aware of the limitations DVD training videos. You may note that many of us on MT have said that DVD's can make good supplements to actual training. If you can make that work for you, I think that's great. I do not belittle you in any way for that.

As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.

We are always interested in this kind of thing. There is a 'members in motion' forum here where users post videos of themselves, and often seek feedback, or you can post on Youtube and post a link to it here. You will have to have a hard shell; when you ask for feedback, you get it, and sometimes people can be a bit rough. But lots of folks here will offer you heartfelt, positive, feedback based on their experience and you may find it helpful to you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What is your ultimate goal?

I think that is an outstanding question.

 

[Cyriacus]

Its a Question of Quality.
Learning with an Instructor and Different Partners will have a Better Result than DVDs.
With sufficient Prequisites though, Learning like this is Valid, and will have a Good Result.

Its a matter of what it is You want, exactly.

 

[jasonbrinn]

[the sound of a can being opened in the background]

I have trained the martial arts for over 30 years. I have had many instructors and attended many seminars. I have spent decades plus with the same instructors and we are all really good friends at this point on many levels. I have also been a HUGE instructional DVD collector. My collection of instructional DVDs was somewhere in the 500-600 range. I say was because I traded most of my videos with a friend of mine that runs a rental service specifically for martial arts videos.

Its NOT the shoes (from the old Nike commercials where they'd state "its gotta be the shoes"). It is NOT the DVD that is the problem, assuming it is done well, it is the person using the DVD.

I must honestly say that it is my opinion that a good instructional DVD is ALWAYS better for instruction of learning a martial art then a physical instructor. Now, before you fire up your keyboards...notice that I said LEARNING a martial art. When it comes to application of a martial art a physical instructor is the ONLY chance for the student to progress IMO.

A DVD, when done right, is well thought out. The instructor of the DVD spends a lot of time thinking over what to film and what to say and those carefully applied thoughts are captured in time in that video for the diligent student to hear, re-hear and hear again. You just don't get that in a class 9-10 times. Plus you get to see the techniques done by the BEST and then broken down. How do we learn for the most part, by seeing! DVDs are not only an exceptional way to learn but they cut the curve down by a long shot!

I have not only seen people learn from DVDs and out perform people who learned traditionally but I have been a personal witness to it. Besides this form of training has been an integral part of the martial arts since they began. What is forms training and what's the purpose if not the same as DVD instruction? What about manuals, which in the Chinese traditions was THE way they were taught in the beginning and still continue to be taught today?

I can understand people from the military not having a good understanding about the controversy as I was in the military myself. The military uses manuals to supplement and extend training and it has shown excellent results and has become a completely accepted process.

Bottom line here though is if a student is not dedicated and determined to rightly apply themselves it won't matter whether it is a physical instructor or a DVD they are just not going to get it.

 

[punisher73]

Its a Question of Quality.
Learning with an Instructor and Different Partners will have a Better Result than DVDs.
With sufficient Prequisites though, Learning like this is Valid, and will have a Good Result.

Its a matter of what it is You want, exactly.

Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd? What if the style you want and found in your town is REALLY bad and just runs a Mcdojo and doesn't offer much criticism because he wants you to be happy and keep showing up? What if your training partners had prior and similar experience in martial arts. You get a dvd set put out by a GREAT instructor in that style that breaks down everything step by step and you video yourself and compare it until you match what is on the dvd and then go hands on with drills with your training partners. Who do you REALLY think is going to be better?

Just playing devil's advocate here...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I must honestly say that it is my opinion that a good instructional DVD is ALWAYS better for instruction of learning a martial art then a physical instructor. Now, before you fire up your keyboards...notice that I said LEARNING a martial art. When it comes to application of a martial art a physical instructor is the ONLY chance for the student to progress IMO.

I do not understand what you mean by 'learning' versus 'application'. I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train. I have a couple of them, in fact.

So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him. He says "OK, let's see it." I proceed to perform it. Badly.

Sensei notes that my balance is wrong. My breathing is wrong. My feet are wrong. My timing and speed are wrong. I'm not rooted where I should be rooted, and I'm rooted where I should be mobile. My strikes are not to the correct points, my blocks are ineffective, and my fight line is all messed up. In addition, the book shows the steps of Kata A slightly differently than my dojo performs Kata A. What I have 'learned' is a set of steps that are incorrect, which I perform incorrectly.

In what way can I be said to have learned anything?

Now, alternatively, let's say that I learn Kata A in the dojo, and as I practice at home, I consult my book, noting that there are some few differences between the way the photos show the kata and the way we do it in our dojo, and keeping in my mind the breathing, speed, and other nuances I have been taught, I practice using the book to refresh my memory if I get stuck.

To me, the book (or video) is a great training aid if used correctly. However, I not only don't think it is a good primary training method, I don't understand the difference between 'learning' and 'application' as you are using them. If you mean that I can 'memorize the steps' in a particular move or kata, then yes, I suppose I can. But that memorization is about 10% of what's required to be able to use it, as I'm sure you know. And by itself with no feedback, IMHO it's actually detrimental.

I am prepared to be proven wrong; but I have not seen anything to date that would convince me of it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd? What if the style you want and found in your town is REALLY bad and just runs a Mcdojo and doesn't offer much criticism because he wants you to be happy and keep showing up? What if your training partners had prior and similar experience in martial arts. You get a dvd set put out by a GREAT instructor in that style that breaks down everything step by step and you video yourself and compare it until you match what is on the dvd and then go hands on with drills with your training partners. Who do you REALLY think is going to be better?

Just playing devil's advocate here...

I see lots of photos of upper body blocks in my books. I've seen a lot of them in videos on Youtube. I never understood the difference between an effective an an ineffective upper body block until I had a partner, in a dojo, throwing blows at me with my Sensei correcting my form by tiny little increments until one day, it just 'happened' that I could not only see the punch coming, get my block up in time, but also absorb and channel the energy in a way that didn't hurt me to take a powerful blow. To me, that's the core of the art, and it isn't something I've seen in a book or video. How to throw a block, yes. How to set the block and take the blow, no. That happened after being hit about eleventy-hundred times by different partners at different speeds and force, with correction and feedback on the spot. I know how a good block feels; that is what you learn in the dojo.

 

[Guvnor]

DVDs are OK but by no means a substitute for training. They help reinforce or refresh the memory. Just my view.