Why so nasty?

[Rich Parsons]

Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?

You spent time in the ARMY.

What did you do?

Where your a shooter?

Where you a medic?

Where you Technical?

Where you MP?

If you were a shooter, think of all your training, and no go play one of these shooter games that allows you to sniper scope with a 1857 colt, or to use a grappling hook to drag yourself across the ground to run or move faster. While it might be fun, is this anything like your training?

If you were a medic, did you get your training by being in class and working on people or watching the shows on TV and then assuming that all the emergencies can be handled by calling out for CBC?

If technical then you trained on equipment. If Comms try doing your work with a branch does it really allow you to tune in a frequency? If missile guidance try hitting something a mile away by throwing a rock.

If a MP can you do crowd control or grab people for arrest while you are not at the same location as the bad people.


If you already know something and you are going back to watch something to see a good practitioners hand placement and then you have people to work with you can try it.



Now as to local schools, I have an issue here. Most people look for something within 5 minutes maybe 20 minutes from their home. If longer they say it is too far away, I have no options. Well Driving an hour or two one way for an hour of good instruction in the art or system or with an instructor you want is better than doing something you do not like or going it alone.

So the question I have to ask, is how serious are you? How important is this? If it is nothing more that it is not easy so I want to do the easy route than look at yourself. If it is an issue of cost be it cash or time, then you have to understand where you are at and understand you cannot afford it. Then if you choose to learn by video only understand the issues and problems with that method of training. Go in with an open mind and looking at yourself and the truth of the situation. Also one can look for underground and garage training. Hit the forums, talk to the locals and see if they know someone who might know someone who is teaching out of their garage or basement or ... , .

Good Luck

 

[jasonbrinn]

I do not understand what you mean by 'learning' versus 'application'. I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train. I have a couple of them, in fact.

So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him. He says "OK, let's see it." I proceed to perform it. Badly.

Sensei notes that my balance is wrong. My breathing is wrong. My feet are wrong. My timing and speed are wrong. I'm not rooted where I should be rooted, and I'm rooted where I should be mobile. My strikes are not to the correct points, my blocks are ineffective, and my fight line is all messed up. In addition, the book shows the steps of Kata A slightly differently than my dojo performs Kata A. What I have 'learned' is a set of steps that are incorrect, which I perform incorrectly.

In what way can I be said to have learned anything?

Now, alternatively, let's say that I learn Kata A in the dojo, and as I practice at home, I consult my book, noting that there are some few differences between the way the photos show the kata and the way we do it in our dojo, and keeping in my mind the breathing, speed, and other nuances I have been taught, I practice using the book to refresh my memory if I get stuck.

To me, the book (or video) is a great training aid if used correctly. However, I not only don't think it is a good primary training method, I don't understand the difference between 'learning' and 'application' as you are using them. If you mean that I can 'memorize the steps' in a particular move or kata, then yes, I suppose I can. But that memorization is about 10% of what's required to be able to use it, as I'm sure you know. And by itself with no feedback, IMHO it's actually detrimental.

I am prepared to be proven wrong; but I have not seen anything to date that would convince me of it.

Agree. I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction. I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand. There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science. I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.

With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.

I have actually had great instructors that I trained under put out DVDs and then while watching them I heard them say something or point something out that they never did for me in class making a world of difference. When I went to them and told them about it they simply said "oh yeah, I guess I should mention that more in class." It was merely the way they thought about teaching over video that brought the point to their mind and nothing more.

I have tons of examples but I guess the end result seems to be that we all agree for the most part. Training is best when under the best circumstances.

Lastly, I have always said to my students and friends that we should judge a martial artist only by what they do. You can only learn what a person knows on the mat IMO. I think as a community we should embrace people that take up books and DVDs as people that are generally honest and eager to learn and give them every benefit of the doubt then energetically "water" those seeds through actual mat time.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agree. I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction. I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand. There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science. I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.

With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.

I have actually had great instructors that I trained under put out DVDs and then while watching them I heard them say something or point something out that they never did for me in class making a world of difference. When I went to them and told them about it they simply said "oh yeah, I guess I should mention that more in class." It was merely the way they thought about teaching over video that brought the point to their mind and nothing more.

I have tons of examples but I guess the end result seems to be that we all agree for the most part. Training is best when under the best circumstances.

Lastly, I have always said to my students and friends that we should judge a martial artist only by what they do. You can only learn what a person knows on the mat IMO. I think as a community we should embrace people that take up books and DVDs as people that are generally honest and eager to learn and give them every benefit of the doubt then energetically "water" those seeds through actual mat time.

I don't disagree with any of that. I'd just hate to see a person who only trained using a video who had to apply his or her knowledge in a self-defense scenario get pummeled because what they thought they knew was not what they knew.

 

[mook jong man]

Just try learning Chi Sau through a video , it would be impossible. I'm talking real Chi Sau that acts like shield against any strike trying to get in , not just trying to mimic the arm movements and hope for the best. You can only learn it properly through direct arm on arm contact with a qualified Wing Chun instructor.

 

[Apache26b]

You spent time in the ARMY. What did you do?Where your a shooter?Where you a medic?Where you Technical?Where you MP?If you were a shooter, think of all your training, and no go play one of these shooter games that allows you to sniper scope with a 1857 colt, or to use a grappling hook to drag yourself across the ground to run or move faster. While it might be fun, is this anything like your training? If you were a medic, did you get your training by being in class and working on people or watching the shows on TV and then assuming that all the emergencies can be handled by calling out for CBC?If technical then you trained on equipment. If Comms try doing your work with a branch does it really allow you to tune in a frequency? If missile guidance try hitting something a mile away by throwing a rock. If a MP can you do crowd control or grab people for arrest while you are not at the same location as the bad people. If you already know something and you are going back to watch something to see a good practitioners hand placement and then you have people to work with you can try it. Now as to local schools, I have an issue here. Most people look for something within 5 minutes maybe 20 minutes from their home. If longer they say it is too far away, I have no options. Well Driving an hour or two one way for an hour of good instruction in the art or system or with an instructor you want is better than doing something you do not like or going it alone. So the question I have to ask, is how serious are you? How important is this? If it is nothing more that it is not easy so I want to do the easy route than look at yourself. If it is an issue of cost be it cash or time, then you have to understand where you are at and understand you cannot afford it. Then if you choose to learn by video only understand the issues and problems with that method of training. Go in with an open mind and looking at yourself and the truth of the situation. Also one can look for underground and garage training. Hit the forums, talk to the locals and see if they know someone who might know someone who is teaching out of their garage or basement or ... , . Good Luck

I was an Infantry team leader and i taught classes om using the army's new gps units and blue force trackers. By the way we used a lot of videos and computer training to do that with. And don't you think at least a few of your examples were just a tad bit obserd? I was talking to a friend of mine at the hospital i work at and one of the docters was in the room. He said he has a friend who is a brain sergion. You know how they pass along new tequnices? No they don't all meet in the brain sewing dojo and practice on brains. They watch films (evil dvd's) lol. Like the man said you can't learn to be a sergion by watching dvd's. But you can learn new procedures that way. I think if they can figure out how to stitch up someone's nuget that way someone with a good background and a good training partner can learn martial arts. Yes even whatever deadly and misterious art you know. As for your "issue" with my distance from any good schools, other than the 2 I already mentioned the closest school from me is 2 hours one way. I am a dissabled vet so springing for that kinda money is kinda out of the question for me. Unless you would like to chip in. Lol And that last patagraph. Lol WOW Are you trying to keep me off drugs or dvd's? That sounds like something from an after school special. Look at your self and realise where you are, my question to you is how important is thos to you. Very melodromatic.
If you will look back at my posts I am not new to the martial arts at all. I do have expierianced partners to work with. And my question was by no meens what was anyone's opinion of dvd training. It was why are folks who ask about it almost always beraited with anything but encouragement. I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools. I don't mean to come off as rude but I don't need and didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I just wondeted why the mention of them makes everyone so mean and mad. It's like that person training in that manner robs the ones who go to the dojo of something. As for questioning me if I am taking the easy way out you don't know me so I will try and not take that as the insult I usualy do. But I asure you it isn't that. And don't get too ticked at my quips at ya. I'm just trying to keep the mood as light as possible. Some folks seem to get pretty mad about this subject.

 

[Apache26b]

I do not understand what you mean by 'learning' versus 'application'. I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train. I have a couple of them, in fact.So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him. He says "OK, let's see it." I proceed to perform it. Badly.Sensei notes that my balance is wrong. My breathing is wrong. My feet are wrong. My timing and speed are wrong. I'm not rooted where I should be rooted, and I'm rooted where I should be mobile. My strikes are not to the correct points, my blocks are ineffective, and my fight line is all messed up. In addition, the book shows the steps of Kata A slightly differently than my dojo performs Kata A. What I have 'learned' is a set of steps that are incorrect, which I perform incorrectly.In what way can I be said to have learned anything?Now, alternatively, let's say that I learn Kata A in the dojo, and as I practice at home, I consult my book, noting that there are some few differences between the way the photos show the kata and the way we do it in our dojo, and keeping in my mind the breathing, speed, and other nuances I have been taught, I practice using the book to refresh my memory if I get stuck.To me, the book (or video) is a great training aid if used correctly. However, I not only don't think it is a good primary training method, I don't understand the difference between 'learning' and 'application' as you are using them. If you mean that I can 'memorize the steps' in a particular move or kata, then yes, I suppose I can. But that memorization is about 10% of what's required to be able to use it, as I'm sure you know. And by itself with no feedback, IMHO it's actually detrimental.I am prepared to be proven wrong; but I have not seen anything to date that would convince me of it.

OK so this may not be the perfict example (please excuse my many mis-spellings) but I have an example I think applies here. I had two different instructors try to teach me the 5 count sumbrada boxed flow or also called the full box. But I only got it after I sat down and watched a dvd on that spacific drill. Seeing over and over exactly the same way as many times as it took from the different angles that they showed is what finally made it click for me.

 

[Apache26b]

I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is. You mentioned that you have experience in a few different styles as you moved around. Do you have a particular dvd set in mind based on your previous training? Are you looking at something new altogether? What is your ultimate goal?

My goal is to have something to do. And I won't deny that I would lile to have a black belt after all the training I have done. I have always believed that if I was going to go to the dojo and train when I walked out the door I would have left my heart on the mat. And I have always tried to do just that. I have left blood sweat and tears all on the mat on many ocasions. I know some guys who are as high as 2nd deg black belts and I can out perform them more often than not. They always say yeah man you should be a bb by now. You're good enough. But I don't have one. So yeah part of it is that, just once, I would like to have someone say you are that good. But mostly I am going to use it have something to do. I clean at the local va hospital for 4 hours a day. Other than that I pretty much sit and go stir crazy.

 

[Apache26b]

Agree. I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction. I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand. There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science. I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.I have actually had great instructors that I trained under put out DVDs and then while watching them I heard them say something or point something out that they never did for me in class making a world of difference. When I went to them and told them about it they simply said "oh yeah, I guess I should mention that more in class." It was merely the way they thought about teaching over video that brought the point to their mind and nothing more.I have tons of examples but I guess the end result seems to be that we all agree for the most part. Training is best when under the best circumstances.Lastly, I have always said to my students and friends that we should judge a martial artist only by what they do. You can only learn what a person knows on the mat IMO. I think as a community we should embrace people that take up books and DVDs as people that are generally honest and eager to learn and give them every benefit of the doubt then energetically "water" those seeds through actual mat time.

Well said sir! Thank you!

 

[Apache26b]

I don't disagree with any of that. I'd just hate to see a person who only trained using a video who had to apply his or her knowledge in a self-defense scenario get pummeled because what they thought they knew was not what they knew.

But that's not what we are talking about in this situation though.

 

[Cyriacus]

Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd?

Error Correction. Refinement. Application.

What if the style you want and found in your town is REALLY bad and just runs a Mcdojo and doesn't offer much criticism because he wants you to be happy and keep showing up?

That is Irrelevant - Of course if thats the Case You use the DVD. Im saying that an Instructor, if He isnt Teaching a McDojo, which I apparently have to specify, will produce a better Outcome than a DVD. A DVD will still produce a Good Outcome, just not *as* Good.

What if your training partners had prior and similar experience in martial arts.

Then You will Learn from them.

You get a dvd set put out by a GREAT instructor in that style that breaks down everything step by step and you video yourself and compare it until you match what is on the dvd and then go hands on with drills with your training partners.

Where do You Plan on getting Skilled Training Partners? That aside, since You probably could; Videoing Yourself to be the same as a Video is a more drawn out way of having someone Correct You in a Timely and more Concise manner. To put that another way, get a Punching Bag and give it to someone whos never Trained anything. Come back in a Week and theyll be putting out Straight Punches. Practice anything for long enough and Youll get Good at it. But to put it another way, take a Black Belt from a *not-McDojo Style, which aims for Efficiency and Capability* (Specified?), and someone whos been Training off a DVD for 5 Years, then have them Ippon Spar.

Who do you REALLY think is going to be better?

My Answer stands, Mate

Just playing devil's advocate here...

Not exactly. Youre just Voicing a Different Opinion.

And We can Agree to Disagree should You so choose.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

OK so this may not be the perfict example (please excuse my many mis-spellings) but I have an example I think applies here. I had two different instructors try to teach me the 5 count sumbrada boxed flow or also called the full box. But I only got it after I sat down and watched a dvd on that spacific drill. Seeing over and over exactly the same way as many times as it took from the different angles that they showed is what finally made it click for me.

How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?

 

[Cyriacus]

How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?

Well, apparently Hes going to Video Tape Himself doing it, then Compare it to the Video.
Not My Words

 

[MJS]

I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is.

This!!!

IMO, you hit the nail on the head. Its safe to say that this is my feeling. As I said, I have a few. Of course, the ones that I do have, I also have trained or currently do train in the respective art, vs. just picking up one of SKH's ToShinDo dvds, and trying to copy his moves.

 

[punisher73]

I see lots of photos of upper body blocks in my books. I've seen a lot of them in videos on Youtube. I never understood the difference between an effective an an ineffective upper body block until I had a partner, in a dojo, throwing blows at me with my Sensei correcting my form by tiny little increments until one day, it just 'happened' that I could not only see the punch coming, get my block up in time, but also absorb and channel the energy in a way that didn't hurt me to take a powerful blow. To me, that's the core of the art, and it isn't something I've seen in a book or video. How to throw a block, yes. How to set the block and take the blow, no. That happened after being hit about eleventy-hundred times by different partners at different speeds and force, with correction and feedback on the spot. I know how a good block feels; that is what you learn in the dojo.

Since I was playing devil's advocate, I will continue to do so.

You are correct a GOOD dojo (as the one you study in) will takes lots of time off of your study and progression. But, in my example, what if you don't have a good dojo? I would argue that the instruction you get at yours from your description of kata is top notch to know those things. Most people aren't aware of those things in kata and wouldn't be able to pass that stuff on anyways even with a live instructor.

Getting together and trading punches over and over with willing training partners will give more feedback than most people get in their own schools under a live person. I completly agree that just watching a dvd or book will do nothing except give you some pretty choreography. But, the intial poster stated that he had training partners with prior experience.

 

[punisher73]

And We can Agree to Disagree should You so choose.

Nope, I agree with all of your points. A good instructor is the best route to go. If you don't have access to a good instructor and you have prior experience and training partners with prior experience, dvd's might be an viable option (original poster had both of those things).

I was playing devil's advocate because everyone always jumps on and says that an instructor and school is the best. But, as you had to point out and defend there are caveats with that statement, such as, the instructor is good and the school is not a McDojo/Belt factory.

 

[MJS]

[the sound of a can being opened in the background]

I have trained the martial arts for over 30 years. I have had many instructors and attended many seminars. I have spent decades plus with the same instructors and we are all really good friends at this point on many levels. I have also been a HUGE instructional DVD collector. My collection of instructional DVDs was somewhere in the 500-600 range. I say was because I traded most of my videos with a friend of mine that runs a rental service specifically for martial arts videos.

Its NOT the shoes (from the old Nike commercials where they'd state "its gotta be the shoes"). It is NOT the DVD that is the problem, assuming it is done well, it is the person using the DVD.

1) I must honestly say that it is my opinion that a good instructional DVD is ALWAYS better for instruction of learning a martial art then a physical instructor. Now, before you fire up your keyboards...notice that I said LEARNING a martial art. When it comes to application of a martial art a physical instructor is the ONLY chance for the student to progress IMO.

2) A DVD, when done right, is well thought out. The instructor of the DVD spends a lot of time thinking over what to film and what to say and those carefully applied thoughts are captured in time in that video for the diligent student to hear, re-hear and hear again. You just don't get that in a class 9-10 times. Plus you get to see the techniques done by the BEST and then broken down. How do we learn for the most part, by seeing! DVDs are not only an exceptional way to learn but they cut the curve down by a long shot!

3) I have not only seen people learn from DVDs and out perform people who learned traditionally but I have been a personal witness to it. Besides this form of training has been an integral part of the martial arts since they began. What is forms training and what's the purpose if not the same as DVD instruction? What about manuals, which in the Chinese traditions was THE way they were taught in the beginning and still continue to be taught today?

4) I can understand people from the military not having a good understanding about the controversy as I was in the military myself. The military uses manuals to supplement and extend training and it has shown excellent results and has become a completely accepted process.

5) Bottom line here though is if a student is not dedicated and determined to rightly apply themselves it won't matter whether it is a physical instructor or a DVD they are just not going to get it.

1) Putting on my best Karate Kid voice, "Hmm...you learn from book?" Sorry dude, gotta disagree with you on this. My wife has never trained a day of martial arts in her life. I could pop in a Larry Tatum Kenpo dvd, and she could mimic the moves, but is she really "LEARNING" anything? Now, I could spend 1hr. with her, showing her some basics, even a tech or 2, and she would have a better understanding of what I'm doing, vs. her watching Larry. Larry isn't correcting her, Larry isn't watching her, whereas I will be. Sorry, if you've never done something, you're going to be sub-par at best. I'll go a step further and say that if the person already has a solid background, with a live teacher, using the dvd as a REFERENCE only, is fine.

2) Even if done right...and I've seen some crappy dvds and some damn good ones....will still not be the same as a live teacher. No matter how well thought out it is, its not going to be the same.

3) I'm going to raise the BS flag on this. Sorry, gotta do it!

4) IMHO, alot of it comes down to the person. How far is one willing to go, to train? I know people who travel hours to get training. I'm lucky, 2 of my 3 main teachers are no more than 10min, if that, from my house. My Kenpo teacher is in New Jersey. I have him down a few times a year, and eventually, I'll make my way up to see him in Jersey. When I dont see him, I simply train on my own. If I have questions, he's a phone call away. So, in a nutshell, and yeah, I know, this isn't easy for everyone, but it all comes down to what the person wants. If there was no BJJ in my area, and it was something I really, really, REALLY wanted, if it meant driving 3 hrs or flying to another state, then so be it. Again, ya gotta really want it! Record (for your own use) the session if possible, take classes, privates, whatever. People ***** alot of the time because stuff isnt 2 min away. Sorry, doesnt always work that way.

5) That I agree with you on!

 

[Cyriacus]

Nope, I agree with all of your points. A good instructor is the best route to go. If you don't have access to a good instructor and you have prior experience and training partners with prior experience, dvd's might be an viable option (original poster had both of those things).

I was playing devil's advocate because everyone always jumps on and says that an instructor and school is the best. But, as you had to point out and defend there are caveats with that statement, such as, the instructor is good and the school is not a McDojo/Belt factory.

Oh, I see what You were saying. I Read it as being You Supporting the use of these Alternate Methods Overall, as oppose to lending that they have their Place.
Im Pleased with the Outcome of this Brief Conversation

 

[jasonbrinn]

1) Putting on my best Karate Kid voice, "Hmm...you learn from book?" Sorry dude, gotta disagree with you on this. My wife has never trained a day of martial arts in her life. I could pop in a Larry Tatum Kenpo dvd, and she could mimic the moves, but is she really "LEARNING" anything? Now, I could spend 1hr. with her, showing her some basics, even a tech or 2, and she would have a better understanding of what I'm doing, vs. her watching Larry. Larry isn't correcting her, Larry isn't watching her, whereas I will be. Sorry, if you've never done something, you're going to be sub-par at best. I'll go a step further and say that if the person already has a solid background, with a live teacher, using the dvd as a REFERENCE only, is fine.

2) Even if done right...and I've seen some crappy dvds and some damn good ones....will still not be the same as a live teacher. No matter how well thought out it is, its not going to be the same.

3) I'm going to raise the BS flag on this. Sorry, gotta do it!

4) IMHO, alot of it comes down to the person. How far is one willing to go, to train? I know people who travel hours to get training. I'm lucky, 2 of my 3 main teachers are no more than 10min, if that, from my house. My Kenpo teacher is in New Jersey. I have him down a few times a year, and eventually, I'll make my way up to see him in Jersey. When I dont see him, I simply train on my own. If I have questions, he's a phone call away. So, in a nutshell, and yeah, I know, this isn't easy for everyone, but it all comes down to what the person wants. If there was no BJJ in my area, and it was something I really, really, REALLY wanted, if it meant driving 3 hrs or flying to another state, then so be it. Again, ya gotta really want it! Record (for your own use) the session if possible, take classes, privates, whatever. People ***** alot of the time because stuff isnt 2 min away. Sorry, doesnt always work that way.

5) That I agree with you on!

Thanks for the honest replies. Please note that my responses above and those to come (pretty much anything I will say on any forum except for things I specifically disqualify) are from my own personal experiences training the martial arts in application - not simply me theorizing in order to post on a thread - not saying you do this just letting you know a little about me.

1) We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this proven out in real life. Again, it matters how passionate the learner is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output. It's easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the technique. I am betting on the video group. What you might find is that the video group initially performs lower but with a little warmup and maybe even some tweaking by you the video group will become better faster and have a much more solid base to grow from. Again, I know this works cause I have done similar tests during my years running many different schools. Could be that I suck teaching and that's why the results were the way they were, but most of my students went on to train at other clubs were almost all of them became the "top" students at those gyms as well (what that indicates I am not quite sure but a fact none the less)

2) I agree. Learning from a DVD is not the same as learning from a live instructor. If you mean it is not as good or is less than - well it all comes down to how you measure it and without a concrete example of your guidelines I don't have any opinion.

3) Nice. What are you raising the "BS" flag on, the reference to how manuals were used in the early days of MA and still used today? Or, are you raising the flag on me saying I have experienced it first hand? Possibly both points? Either way you are totally within your rights to feel that way, just know that it is only your feelings and not the truth. I don't see that me listing out and "proving" my claim here benefits the thread but I definitely can if people would like me to (and if you are personally interested in my studies and what I learned you can definitely contact me - I love talking MA with passionate honest people like you sound to be [ [email protected] ] ). The historical aspects of manuals being used is just that - historical - it can be researched and you will see that I am correct (at least on this point).

4) Interesting. It really comes down to the quality of instruction right? I mean wouldn't 2 hours with a world renowned expert be worth more than 200 hours with an average instructor? It really depends, again if you are a passionate student with a context to understand the experts points you will likely get a huge bump from those 2 hours. Or, if you are a newbie and "slow" then the 200 hours of "hand holding" might be the ONLY way you will progress. This is really my point. A great video can help both people the same way. A newbie watching an expert video will get what they get, granted it will be from an expert. A seasoned student watching the expert video will more than likely get a lot more out of it, still getting it from an expert. Both of them will increase their learning and decrease their curves. Logic would tell us that if you took both of those students and had them train new arts, the seasoned student watches the video while the newbie trains the art first hand - give them both 6 months - at the end the seasoned student will "out perform" the newbie in the new art. If you agree with this then follow me a bit more - if a complete newbie (n) watches a video (v) over and over and over they could expect to attain a certain level (x). If that same newbie (n) instead trained at a school (s) to learn the same amount of time they could expect to attain a certain level (x) too correct?

1. n + v = X
2. n + s = X

How can you honestly say that the second X is more or of a better quality? They only argument as I see it to say one X is more preferred would be to consider the elements of training in V versus S. This would mean you think certain methods of training better convey information than another, certain processes are more preferred like sparring, face-to-face correction, etc. Fortunately, how the human brain adapts information is a subject that has been widely tested and studied for many many years. The bottom line from most studies suggests that people learn much more from repetitively viewing consistent data then from attempting to recreate data at various levels over a period of time.

I have tested this theory in real LIVE scenarios and found it to be mostly true with the only uncontrollable variable being the student (and by which that same student had mixed results from either method).

5) Glad we agree on something - that we have to build from


Thanks again!

 

[MJS]

Thanks for the honest replies. Please note that my responses above and those to come (pretty much anything I will say on any forum except for things I specifically disqualify) are from my own personal experiences training the martial arts in application - not simply me theorizing in order to post on a thread - not saying you do this just letting you know a little about me.

1) We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this proven out in real life. Again, it matters how passionate the learner is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output. It's easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the technique. I am betting on the video group. What you might find is that the video group initially performs lower but with a little warmup and maybe even some tweaking by you the video group will become better faster and have a much more solid base to grow from. Again, I know this works cause I have done similar tests during my years running many different schools. Could be that I suck teaching and that's why the results were the way they were, but most of my students went on to train at other clubs were almost all of them became the "top" students at those gyms as well (what that indicates I am not quite sure but a fact none the less)

Question: Have these people been students with zero training or ones that have had past training? I ask this, because yeah, if you have someone who has trained, they may pick something up. Without any training...oh, I'm sure they'll copy the movemtns, but they'll still suck. 26yrs in, I could probably pick up a dvd of an art that I've never done, and figure things out, easier than someone with no training. Why? My 26yrs. Someone with zero training....sorry, can't buy that they'll be remotely effective. That'd be like me going to Home Depot, picking up a book on electrical wiring, reading it, and thinking that I could re-wire my house. LOL!

2) I agree. Learning from a DVD is not the same as learning from a live instructor. If you mean it is not as good or is less than - well it all comes down to how you measure it and without a concrete example of your guidelines I don't have any opinion.

My point sir, is that no matter how well the dvd was made, things will be left out, important things won't be transmitted to the student. Why? Because of the obvious...the dvd isn't going to correct you.

3) Nice. What are you raising the "BS" flag on, the reference to how manuals were used in the early days of MA and still used today? Or, are you raising the flag on me saying I have experienced it first hand? Possibly both points? Either way you are totally within your rights to feel that way, just know that it is only your feelings and not the truth. I don't see that me listing out and "proving" my claim here benefits the thread but I definitely can if people would like me to (and if you are personally interested in my studies and what I learned you can definitely contact me - I love talking MA with passionate honest people like you sound to be [ [email protected] ] ). The historical aspects of manuals being used is just that - historical - it can be researched and you will see that I am correct (at least on this point).

I'm raising the BS flag on the statement that you made....that a dvd student will out perform a student who trains with a live teacher. Come on man... Are you saying that back in the day, all people had was training manuals to go by...no live teacher? But all that aside....feel free to PM me here on the forum.

4) Interesting. It really comes down to the quality of instruction right? I mean wouldn't 2 hours with a world renowned expert be worth more than 200 hours with an average instructor? It really depends, again if you are a passionate student with a context to understand the experts points you will likely get a huge bump from those 2 hours. Or, if you are a newbie and "slow" then the 200 hours of "hand holding" might be the ONLY way you will progress. This is really my point. A great video can help both people the same way. A newbie watching an expert video will get what they get, granted it will be from an expert. A seasoned student watching the expert video will more than likely get a lot more out of it, still getting it from an expert. Both of them will increase their learning and decrease their curves. Logic would tell us that if you took both of those students and had them train new arts, the seasoned student watches the video while the newbie trains the art first hand - give them both 6 months - at the end the seasoned student will "out perform" the newbie in the new art. If you agree with this then follow me a bit more - if a complete newbie (n) watches a video (v) over and over and over they could expect to attain a certain level (x). If that same newbie (n) instead trained at a school (s) to learn the same amount of time they could expect to attain a certain level (x) too correct?

1. n + v = X
2. n + s = X

How can you honestly say that the second X is more or of a better quality? They only argument as I see it to say one X is more preferred would be to consider the elements of training in V versus S. This would mean you think certain methods of training better convey information than another, certain processes are more preferred like sparring, face-to-face correction, etc. Fortunately, how the human brain adapts information is a subject that has been widely tested and studied for many many years. The bottom line from most studies suggests that people learn much more from repetitively viewing consistent data then from attempting to recreate data at various levels over a period of time.

I have tested this theory in real LIVE scenarios and found it to be mostly true with the only uncontrollable variable being the student (and by which that same student had mixed results from either method).

Allow me to use an example: Student A has trained BJJ under a brown belt for 2yrs. He goes to class 3-4 times a week, for a 90min class. Rickson Gracie is holding a seminar. Student A goes to the seminar which is 8hrs over the course of 2 days.

Student B is new to the art of BJJ. He goes to class 3-4 times, like Student A, but he's only been training 2 weeks. Student B also goes to the Rickson seminar.

Who do you think is going to walk away with more knowledge? I'm going to say A. Why? A already has already been training for 2yrs, has a solid understanding of the basics, will be able to ask more technical questions, and overall, will probably gain more from Ricksons knowledge. B is so new, he's still grasping the basics. Will there be white belts in the seminar? Sure, probably, but chances are, their head will be spinning with whats covered.

So, back to your example. I'll use Larry Tatum. Me spending 2hrs with him vs my wife spending 2hrs with him...well, come on, its a no brainer. I'd gain more because of my training background. My wifes time would be better spent with someone of a lesser caliber, who can work with her on the basics. It'd be like showing a new driver how to drive. Instead of using a small, 6cyl. car, you put them in a Ferrari.

But this thread is about distance learning and not having someone immediately in the area to train with. I gave my options....train with someone in the area, train with someone who's far away. Either way, go train. Again, I understand that everything is not nearby. No Kajukenbo in my area, so what're my options? Fly to a state that has a Kaju teacher, move, take a week long trip, train, take privates, head home, train the hell out of what you did, and repeat, etc.

5) Glad we agree on something - that we have to build from


Thanks again!

No problem. and thank you as well.

 

[Blindside]

We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this proven out in real life. Again, it matters how passionate the learner is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output. It's easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the technique. I am betting on the video group.

I have done this, I have a local group and a study group, the study group is 220 miles away so I don't get to them (or they to me) as often as either of us would like. I provide video of the basics and the core beginner drills as reference to all of my students. My local students don't use them very often as they have me to reference off of and my distance students use the vids regularly. Every time I meet with my distance students I have to do quality control, I run through all the fundamentals to make sure odd things aren't creeping in. Most of them are experienced martial artists already (all of the core group members hold black belt or black belt equivalents in other arts), know how to learn, know their bodies, and yet I constantly find issues. And because it has been a month (or often more) that I get to see them, the issues have time to fester and get ingrained. I estimate that my personal students are progressing at least twice as fast as my distance students.

I have also done the video learning thing myself. I (and a couple of experienced MAists as training partners) tried video training in the FMAs because we didn't have anything local (middle of nowhere Wyoming). I won't say we didn't learn anything, but after a year and a half of 3 days/wk training, by common consensus we weren't actually progressing. We bit the bullet and started looking for instructors in Salt Lake City which was 170 miles away. After finding our instructor our estimate was we learned more in three months of 1 or 2x/month personal lessons than we had in all our previous time combined. As an additional part of that experience, one of our study group was a kinesthetic learner, he could not learn through video at all, the two visual learners would have to figure out what the video lesson was, do the lesson, then teach him. It was a frustrating process for him because he felt "dumb" because he couldn't get the lesson the way we were. Video training by himself would have been truly useless.

So my experience is very different than yours.