Where have all the chunners gone...

lansao

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Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.
I went through it again, looks like it's me not positioning myself closely enough. The base doesn't get in my way as I'm just in a left neutral position.
 

Callen

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Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective.
Thats awesome! I appreciate that you took the time and effort to record and explain your movements in a video response to my question, thank you.

I can now see the Fook Sau that you are referring to. Im not too familiar with William Cheungs dummy set, so that use of Fook in the form is interesting to me.

Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.
I agree. Your dummy design is holding you back, quite literally.

Side note: It's also my least favorite set because of the impracticality of double-palm strikes but it's kept in for tradition. The two hand push deflection from quan sao is useful but overshadowed by set five.
I have found that different groups put an emphasis on different actions. In some lineages/groups, Po Pai (double-palm strikes) can be extremely practical and effective. However, training it properly on the dummy requires more power generation and spring than what your current set-up will allow.
 

Callen

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I went through it again, looks like it's me not positioning myself closely enough. The base doesn't get in my way as I'm just in a left neutral position.
It is good that you are considering all the possibilities, that will make you a better practitioner. If you are too far away from the dummy during that section, it stands to reason that it can happen in other parts of the form as well. So good for you for noticing!

Still think you should think on modifying that base though ;)
 

lansao

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Thats awesome! I appreciate that you took the time and effort to record and explain your movements in a video response to my question, thank you.

I can now see the Fook Sau that you are referring to. Im not too familiar with William Cheungs dummy set, so that use of Fook in the form is interesting to me.


I agree. Your dummy design is holding you back, quite literally.


I have found that different groups put an emphasis on different actions. In some lineages/groups, Po Pai (double-palm strikes) can be extremely practical and effective. However, training it properly on the dummy requires more power generation and spring than what your current set-up will allow.
I'll share that it is heavily influenced by William Cheung's lineage but significantly overhauled by Philip Holder. To a point where William Cheung students might not recognize aspects.

It was a gift from my mom after my dad passed. It's not ideal and my Sifu encouraged me to wall-mount it when I was setting it up. I just can't keep it in a fixed position in my garage at the moment and needed something to get the thing up. I'll see if I can find a better mounting situation for it in the near term.

Do you have a good example of when the double palm strike is practical and effective?

~ Alan
 

lansao

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It is good that you are considering all the possibilities, that will make you a better practitioner. If you are too far away from the dummy during that section, it stands to reason that it can happen in other parts of the form as well. So good for you for noticing!

Still think you should think on modifying that base though ;)
Yeah totally. I'll find a way to remedy the base.

If I make a mistake in any step of the sequence, the cause of the error was in the step before it. I find that iteration within each set "tunes" my foot work and range. Repeating small step to step transitions over and over tightens up gaps in my central line too. Lots of information encoded in the dummy sets, but finite information. Everything in every sequence is explainable as a root application.

~ Alan
 

JowGaWolf

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Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?

Am I the only guy still nuts enough to try and use mostly straight up WC/WT/VT (with a few minor modifications) for my close-range standup game? The basic principles still work for me. Hellooo! Am I alone? Is there anyone else left in the room?
Sorry about that. I beat them all up and spared you so you can feel lonely
. Lol.
 

PiedmontChun

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Full disclosure, I thought the Po Pai strikes in the dummy form looked awkward and I questioned how useful that would actually be, and I never had any exposure to it in class to have an informed opinion, but I will say the WC/WT double punch is actually quite useful after spending some time training it! It was like a light bulb came on and I saw numerous opportunities to actually use them in chi-sau / gor-sau. Having been on the receiving end of them more than once, it can be very jarring.
 

lansao

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Full disclosure, I thought the Po Pai strikes in the dummy form looked awkward and I questioned how useful that would actually be, and I never had any exposure to it in class to have an informed opinion, but I will say the WC/WT double punch is actually quite useful after spending some time training it! It was like a light bulb came on and I saw numerous opportunities to actually use them in chi-sau / gor-sau. Having been on the receiving end of them more than once, it can be very jarring.
If you miss, what's guarding your face?
 

PiedmontChun

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lansao

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Its a low / mid level punch right on the centerline. If you miss, its because they stepped back out of range, but its done at very close range so its very high percentage to land as intended. I couldn't find a photo of it in practice but this book cover shows the fist positioning.
http://www.everythingwingchun.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BOOK-LT01-2001-2T.jpg

I imagine they could also step slightly to either side while throwing a basic hook punch for the head.
 

Danny T

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The Butterfly Hands also know as Po Pai, is a technique mostly devoted to a sharp, decisive thrust of both hands or fists against the body toward the core. The primary goal of this nature is to take advantage of the surrounding environment and use it as a weapon, such as the sharp angle of a wall or the surface of a window for example and projecting the opponent into or through it. Secondary applications are for multiple opponents, countering an attempted grappling move, up-rooting the opponents position, disturbing balance, etc. Po Pai is a secondary or tertiary action following in a combination never a primary attack.
 

ShortBridge

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It took a bit of time for me with Po Pai Sao, but I find that there is a use for it. It is a common hand in not just Wing Chun, but other southern systems. I wouldn't write it off just yet.
 

lansao

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It took a bit of time for me with Po Pai Sao, but I find that there is a use for it. It is a common hand in not just Wing Chun, but other southern systems. I wouldn't write it off just yet.

I wont write it off, but likely wont practice it as often as other components that I feel are more practical in a fight. Good to see different thoughts on it from other perspectives.
 

ShortBridge

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It's far from my go-to, but I don't think there is anything impractical about it in the right circumstances. Attack and defense are the same. Strikes are also covers/intercepts. I wouldn't use it without a bridge and control of the space.
 

lansao

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It's far from my go-to, but I don't think there is anything impractical about it in the right circumstances. Attack and defense are the same. Strikes are also covers/intercepts. I wouldn't use it without a bridge and control of the space.

Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale.

Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if theres ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.
 

Eric_H

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Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?

We're still around.

My Sifu finally is opening up Chum Kiu, I'm pretty excited. No surprise, it's worlds away from what I did in the Moy Yat/VTM version.

Hope this means two handed Chi Sao is on the way, it'll be nice to tahn/bong/fuk with the rest of you.
 
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geezer

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What? Eric is that you? Just this morning I dug out an old bottle of jow I got from you via Jake. Remember him? I've totally lost touch with him, but I'm glad I still have a bit of that jow. I seem to bruise easier these days! Anyway, keep in touch --and post a bit more often! :)
 

PiedmontChun

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I imagine they could also step slightly to either side while throwing a basic hook punch for the head.
If you had to step in with the double punch from out of range, I would agree with you. Generally, the opportunity to use the double punch is when you already are at very close range, are nose to nose with your partner / opponent, so to speak, in terms of alignment. Also, and this might be a more WC versus WC type application, but ideally your arms would have already deflected or even trapped the opponent's arms below yours - so a hook punch would be a huge reset and windup movement for him compared to your arms launching only inches forward to their target. A video would make more sense than trying to describe it; there might be a decent example on YouTube but I looked a couple minutes and didn't find one.
 

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