Where have all the chunners gone...

Danny T

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Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale.

Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if theres ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.
Think standing grappling. Use it to create space or thrust the person off of you or into someone else. Trap a leg or sweep, and po pai simultaneously to knock them down or away from you.
 

ShortBridge

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Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale.

Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if theres ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.

If we had a chance to touch hands sometime we could definitely train it. Ironically, I've been teaching it lately because one of my students who is in that section of the mook jong said the same thing, so we've been drilling it.

But, you can't just say "I'm going to Muai Thai you and see if you can successfully Po Pai Sao me". Wing Chun (fighting in general) doesn't work that way. It needs to flow naturally from the right position. The same truth exists for like a wrist lock. If you say "okay, I'm going to attack you, let's see you apply that wrist lock in real life" it doesn't work. The technique needs to be one of several that might flow naturally depending.

BECAUSE actual violence is fast and chaotic I find this technique to be useful. But, again, it's not probably in my top 10 and I think it requires really good overall skill to pull it off.
 

lansao

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But, you can't just say "I'm going to Muai Thai you and see if you can successfully Po Pai Sao me". Wing Chun (fighting in general) doesn't work that way. It needs to flow naturally from the right position. The same truth exists for like a wrist lock. If you say "okay, I'm going to attack you, let's see you apply that wrist lock in real life" it doesn't work. The technique needs to be one of several that might flow naturally depending.

This, this, all day this ^^. We have the luxury of time in the keun. If we were to practice this together, I'd work with you to figure out how I can be a good partner. Frame by frame we'd pause and ask questions like:
  • am I exposed? where?
  • what are my opponents options? what are my options?
  • if my opponent uses one of his options, what's my next best option given his move?
  • am I in a position where my opponent being stronger than me might make this difficult?
  • is this the simplest possible movement given within the realm of safety?
Then we'd move to the next frame.

Random extra bit: This time-series approach also let's us use basic calculus and geometry to refine deflective angles. For example, with bong sao (as we practice it - lol I feel like we all say this so often it needs it's own acronym, AWP?), we can describe the position the forearm lands in as the main diagonal of a cube (cubic diagonal), which when rotated in an upward and outward direction into place, deflects an incoming linear strike up and in the opposite direction of the bong sao arm. It behaves a lot like a boxer's shoulder role, but using the forearm as point of contact.
 

Martial D

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But by the same token, if too many of your go to moves(or even a good portion of your syllabus) requires that the moon be aligned with jupiter on a spring day that isn't raining to land, you might want to reevaluate.
 

lansao

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But by the same token, if too many of your go to moves(or even a good portion of your syllabus) requires that the moon be aligned with jupiter on a spring day that isn't raining to land, you might want to reevaluate.

Be super judicial with what you choose to dedicate to muscle memory. Its an investment in your time and takes away from time you would otherwise spend further training the techniques that have already passed your criteria. Continually improve on your criteria, and review your selections to remove anything that doesnt pass.

Limit your training to the essential abstract unit movements that let you adapt to any situation (emphasis on you).
 

Martial D

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I have a very simple criteria actually.

Will this work on an opponent even if he is expecting it?

Ready for my jab but my jab still lands? Good.

Expecting me to armbar but still get armbarred? Good

Expecting me to grab the wrist and spin it over my head as I grab your elbow and throw you? Never gonna happen.
 

KPM

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Well, I can tell you where I've been. I was banned again! In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him. Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate. And this is not the first time! So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that! And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours! ;)
 

Martial D

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Well, I can tell you where I've been. I was banned again! In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him. Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate. And this is not the first time! So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that! And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours! ;)
I was wondering where you've been.
 

_Simon_

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Well, I can tell you where I've been. I was banned again! In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him. Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate. And this is not the first time! So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that! And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours! ;)

Ah didn't realise you were banned...

(FWIW I thought you carried yourself well in that thread, were honest without being disrespectful, and simply calling someone out truthfully on the way they were acting ;) )
 
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geezer

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Well, I can tell you where I've been. I was banned again! In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him... ;)

Well, that got my curiosity up, so I went back and found that post. Yep. You said a bad word, and frankly, I'm shocked.:eek: ... Best to find some kind of euphemism I suppose. Anyway, that guy really was coming across like a total Ricardo, so we forgive you for saying what we were all thinking! :D

--anyway, welcome back. :)
 

Hanzou

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Interestingly, the four Wing Chunners I knew all quit WC and got into MMA, Muay Thai, or Bjj.
 

jks9199

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Folks,

A couple of thoughts from the back room...

Martial Talk is supposed to be a friendly place. If someone isn't being nice, the best way to handle it isn't to respond in kind, complain about it in the thread, or add to the problem. Hit the RTM button, tell us what's wrong, and let us handle it. We don't discuss the actions taken publicly. Maybe you shouldn't discuss actions taken against you publicly, either...

If you are in the habit of posting in a way that causes disruptions, bashing different arts, or basically making more work for the Moderation Team... maybe you can think about that, and figure a friendlier way to post? I suspect that it would be widely appreciated... and not just by the Staff.

Really, folks, it comes down to the Golden Rule. Treat each other as you want to be treated. Be excellent to each other...
 

KPM

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So, you are telling a bunch of martial artists to NOT take up for themselves?? That typically doesn't go over too well! ;)
 
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geezer

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So, you are telling a bunch of martial artists to NOT take up for themselves?? That typically doesn't go over too well! ;)

Now Keith, don't be a Ricardo. Truth be told, You did good tellin' off that Lied Flice guy, but you are an articulate guy. You can do that without being uncivil, and can help keep this forum a better place to hang out than so many others.

Getting back on track-- How's the WC boxing experiment going. Is it attracting interest? As in students or practitioners?
 

KPM

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Getting back on track-- How's the WC boxing experiment going. Is it attracting interest? As in students or practitioners?

It's a bit discouraging. I started a "Meet Up" group locally to try and attract some attention. It hasn't produced much result. I kind of get the impression that the interest in martial arts in general is kind of dipping down in the US right now.

Paul Rackemann has told me he is planning on dropping the "Wing Chun Boxing" label because he continues to get so much flack and hate mail from Wing Chun guys. I've been putting more emphasis on Kali recently because I've become rather jaded and fed up with the attitude so prevalent in the Wing Chun community.
 

PiedmontChun

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Interestingly, the four Wing Chunners I knew all quit WC and got into MMA, Muay Thai, or Bjj.
I hate to use the word "quit" since I insisted I was taking a break from WT 2 years ago and planned to return (it was for multiple reasons - time / new job further from the school / to appease my wife since we were having another child coming any day / money)

Rather than just sit around though, I ended up at a weekend Judo class that was local to me and affordable, for something completely different and arguably complementary to WT. When that club fell apart, I replaced it with BJJ since that was pretty local to me also. I train BJJ quite a bit now. I wish I could return to WT and keep up with BJJ too. Maybe if I somehow won the lottery tomorrow (which would be a miracle considering I never buy a ticket:)) then I would train in both, until my body fell apart of course.

Fairly speculative on my part, but I do think if a hypothetical self defense scenario happened, I would probably default to WT striking / deflection and grapple as a secondary. I also question how comfortable I would be having a BJJ-only toolset and not the prior time in a striking art.
 

ShortBridge

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I think "all of the chunners" feel the futility of being "called out" every time they try to post about their style in the forum dedicated to it in the "Friendly Martial Arts Community". Better to just train.
 

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