The five directions of Wing Chun...

[Phobius]

I don't think KPM uses VT does he? No offence was intended anyway. Of course I meant the VT that I practice.

Isn't yours WT?

Yea I think it is or at least was, but I do recall someone else other than WSL VT calling it VT. Could be wrong though. Anyways I think this misconception may have started when LFJ was an integral part of discussions because he called it WSL VT for his style and VT for all others I believe. Now everyone just gets confused but then again we are good at being confused, we spend too much time feeling in our joint style.

 

[geezer]

I don't think KPM uses VT does he? No offence was intended anyway. Of course I meant the VT that I practice.

Isn't yours WT?

Yes, my training was in WT (mostly) but now I'm with another group that uses GM Yip's "VT" spelling.

 

[guy b.]

Yes, my training was in WT (mostly) but now I'm with another group that uses GM Yip's "VT" spelling.

Ok, are you happy if I refer to it as WSL VT then?

 

[geezer]

Ok, are you happy if I refer to it as WSL VT then?

Oh yes! Indeed, I am almost ecstatic!

 

[guy b.]

So let me get this straight, a lot of the offence I have caused thus far has been down to using not-specific-enough terminology for the particular VT group I belong to? People are offended because I don't look like I am celebrating the difference enough in terms of wording it in the least offensive possible way? If that is the case then I don't know what else to say apart from lol

Of course I will abide by this forum convention from now on and identify myself as specifically as possible lest someone think I am talking about them rather than me (although of course I don't know them or anything about them). Lol!

 

[KPM]

Please, I said VT, not wing chun.

---Ah! So all this time when you have written "VT" you were referring specifically to "WSLVT"??? My apologies! Because that was not at all clear! WSL is not the only Wing Chun person who used the "Ving Tsun" spelling. I just assumed that "VT" was your preferred way to refer to "WC." My recommendation is that in the future you use the 3 extra key strokes to write "WSLVT" to avoid any future confusion.


I would be very happy for you to provide specific information on how your wing chun differs in comparison (no simple conceptual base?). Don't feel that I am judging you, we are talking about different systems it seems.

---No, Pin Sun does not have one over-riding single guiding concept. It does make use of that same concept, it just doesn't make it a central focus. Like I have said, I think it tends to be a bit more "open-ended" and multi-dimensional. Tactics can shift according to the situation. There is a Kum Na component, and obviously Kum Na would not adhere very closely to that Kuen Kuit or even LSDD. But of course, Pin Sun is still very much identifiable as Wing Chun.



Ok, so Mainland wing chun is more like a mixed striking grappling system and it is up to the individual how to use the various concepts and techniques which it contains, as and when?

---Not like MMA where things tend to be a random mix. But yes, I guess you could say it is more "application based" and "technique based" than WSLVT. But there are guiding concepts and keywords. Just not one over-riding central concept that dictates how everything is done. And probably most people wouldn't say it is a "grappling" system to the same extent as something like Jiu Jitsu or Hapkido. The Kum Na portion is a minor part only.



It is a central concept in that it determines how a HG practitioner views fighting, what their main strategic goals are likely to be, and how they will try to reach those goals.

---Ok. That's fair enough. More of a guiding tactic. I'd say that the "guiding tactic" of Pin Sun would be to get in close and neutralize the opponent....primarily by striking, but as noted before a joint-lock or something similar is also used. And by close I mean typically closer than arm's length....close enough to use elbow strikes. This is why angling and using the "swallow" concept is important. At that close range you have to be able to move that way to stay close. So it is kind of like standing grappling with strikes. "Swallow" helps keep the opponent that close.


SPM, Bak Mei and Lung Ying are all the same system, "Hakka kuen" if you like. There is no difference other than time and some fake origin legends. Crane is a bit different to these others but has some very similar approaches and training methodologies. It is obviously related, although I do not know the history of it.

---Got it. It would be interesting to figure how White Crane is related to the Hakka Kuen, since the come from such different sources. Hard to know who trained and traded with ideas with who back then!

 

[LFJ]

I once made a suggestion on here that didn't go through, for some reason.
(I guess, people here prefer confusion, because arguments.)

That is, from German language forums where they use something like _ing_un when quite obviously referring to Wing Chun in general.

They will fill in the blanks and use abbreviations when otherwise talking about a specific lineage and/or what can be assumed to refer to their own. There's never any ambiguity or confusion this way.

 

[geezer]

I once made a suggestion on here that didn't go through, for some reason.
(I guess, people here prefer confusion, because arguments.)

That is, from German language forums where they use something like _ing_un when quite obviously referring to Wing Chun in general.

They will fill in the blanks and use abbreviations when otherwise talking about a specific lineage and/or what can be assumed to refer to their own. There's never any ambiguity or confusion this way.

IMO, using "_ing _un" only seems to add to the confusion and frankly just looks odd. I'll stick with using "WC" or "Wing Chun" for the system broadly speaking, and when talking about a specific branch I'll identify it. Others can do whatever they wish.

 

[LFJ]

Add to the confusion? It's quite obviously saying "Wing Chun in general" or "insert any lineage spelling".

If I say "Wing Chun" or "WC", KPM might still say "maybe in your WC, but not in mine"...

 

[KPM]

Add to the confusion? It's quite obviously saying "Wing Chun in general" or "insert any lineage spelling".

If I say "Wing Chun" or "WC", KPM might still say "maybe in your WC, but not in mine"...

What's so hard about typing "WSLVT" when that's what you are referring to? I will type PSWC many times when I am referring to my Wing Chun.

 

[geezer]

Add to the confusion? It's quite obviously saying "Wing Chun in general" or "insert any lineage spelling".

If I say "Wing Chun" or "WC", KPM might still say "maybe in your WC, but not in mine"...

You can always say WSL VT ...or just say my lineage, if you prefer. As far as "--ing --un" goes, not only does it look odd, it also calls attention to the notorious factionalism and bickering between lineages, and I've seen it used by other groups in a negative way regarding WC in general. So it's not a term I'd embrace.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh for crying out loud...you're all wrong...its 詠春

Frankly, to me, it is all..."What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."

Other than that it is yǒng chūn to me.... but then I don't speak Cantonese and I tend towards Mandarin.

 

[LFJ]

It works just fine on other forums.

Seems you guys here will always nitpick some reason to argue.

 

[geezer]

LFJ... another thought. In North America, Wing Chun or "WC" is already widely accepted as the generic term. In Europe, due to the greater influence of British English, "WC" has another meaning altogether! And most alternative spellings (Wing Tsun,Ving Tsun, Weng Chun, etc.) refer to very specific groups and not the system in general. So for lack of another term, they are stuck using "_ing _un". We are not.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Frankly gentleman, it all comes down to what was used to translate 詠春...... Pinyin, Wade-Giles, or Yale...... and it all ends up the same place...here 詠春

Correspondence of Wade-Giles to Pinyin
Yale romanization of Cantonese
Yale romanization of Mandarin

 

[geezer]

It works just fine on other forums.

Seems you guys here will always nitpick some reason to argue.

Compared to what I've seen on other forums, the WC community here gets along quite well ...with the possible exception of you and Guy. If you folks aren't enjoying our forum, why not move along?

 

[geezer]

Frankly gentleman, it all comes down to what was used to translate 詠春...... Pinyin, Wade-Giles, or Yale...... and it all ends up the same place...here 詠春

Correspondence of Wade-Giles to Pinyin
Yale romanization of Cantonese
Yale romanization of Mandarin

Well, actually there are two slightly different characters used by different lineages:

 

[Xue Sheng]

詠春 = Wing Chun = Yong Chun (Mandarin)
永春 = Yong Chun = Wing Chun

its likely a lineage thing

Kind of like my friend who does Taijiquan as do I, but his lineage is;

Chen Wangting - Chen Changxing - Chen Fake - Chen Zhaokui - Chen Zhenglei - My Friend
Chen Wangting - Chen Changxing - Chen Dengke - Chen Zhaopi - Chen Zhenglei - My Friend

Mine is

Chen Wangting - Chen Changxing - Yang Luchan - Yang Jianhou - Yang Chengfu - Tung Ying Chieh - My sifu - me
Chen Wangting - Chen Youpen - Chen Qingping - Wu Yuxiang - Li Yiyu - Hao Weizhang - Li Xingyuan - Tung Ying Chieh - My sifu - me

All still taijiquan or Tai Chi Chuan

My Taijiquan Sifu pronouces the romanization of 形意拳 (Xíng Yì Quán); as yingyichun I pronounce it more like ShingYeechuan. He is a Southerner and my pronunciations are northern. But it is still the same style.

To me this WC VT wing chun weng chun argument is simply an argument over a Chinese dialectic pronunciation of the english translation...not that there are not differences, like wiht Chen Taiji and yang taiji...but it is not worth arguing about the spelling (or pronunciation) differences between Taijiquan and Tai Chi Chuan. Or Xingyiquan, yingyeechun or Hsing I Ch'üan.

There, I've said my piece.....and now I will discontinue this Taijiquan guys interloping in the Wing Chun section...for now

 

[KPM]

詠春 = Wing Chun = Yong Chun (Mandarin)
永春 = Yong Chun = Wing Chun

Sure. Different characters that are pronounced the exact same way. So the convention has widely become to render the "beautiful" character as "Wing" and the "eternal" character as "Weng." That is widely accepted in the community.

 

[guy b.]

Compared to what I've seen on other forums, the WC community here gets along quite well ...with the possible exception of you and Guy. If you folks aren't enjoying our forum, why not move along?

That's a bit unfriendly. I am happy to go with the approved terminology