That's a totally different issue, though there is a relation. Under pressure like a real fight, not sparring, it's normal for the mind to go blank. A person's not likely to "think" about what they're doing until they get a fair amount of exposure and experience to it. What may well happen, if they've practiced diligently, both in class and out of class, is automatic responses that reflect their training. If they've trained diligently, I'd expect a statement along the lines of "this guy got in my face, and I'm not sure what I did, but I pushed his punch out of the way, and then started punching him in the face..." (my poor attempt at describing a parry followed by chain punching...)
Where are all the fighters?
- Thread starter yak sao
- Start date
That's a totally different issue, though there is a relation. Under pressure like a real fight, not sparring, it's normal for the mind to go blank. A person's not likely to "think" about what they're doing until they get a fair amount of exposure and experience to it. What may well happen, if they've practiced diligently, both in class and out of class, is automatic responses that reflect their training. If they've trained diligently, I'd expect a statement along the lines of "this guy got in my face, and I'm not sure what I did, but I pushed his punch out of the way, and then started punching him in the face..." (my poor attempt at describing a parry followed by chain punching...)
- Thread Starter
- #22
That's my point. you don't know something until you can do it. I'm constantly telling the guys that you don't learn WT in class, you learn it at home through diligent practice.
I think many (if not most ) MA students think that because they go to class a time or two a week, and have this theory and a handful of techniques swimming through their head, that they know how to handle themselves.
I know we're all just normal every day guys with lives to lead outside of class, but if they're going to train in a fighting art, they need to take it to heart, otherwise, I'm afraid they are setting themselves up for a fall....one they may not stand back up from.
I think many (if not most ) MA students think that because they go to class a time or two a week, and have this theory and a handful of techniques swimming through their head, that they know how to handle themselves.
I know we're all just normal every day guys with lives to lead outside of class, but if they're going to train in a fighting art, they need to take it to heart, otherwise, I'm afraid they are setting themselves up for a fall....one they may not stand back up from.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I was working with a guy in my first sifu's class on a taijiquan 2 person form and he was not completing anything. He was way too soft and totally ineffective and afterwards I was talking with him about the need to complete each form because from a martial arts point of view what he is doing will get him hurt if he ever tried to use any of this to defend himself.... his response......"I don't DO martial arts....I DO TAIJI!!!!" And he then walked away. Another guy in that class, after I showed him a Qinna application or two told me that I had it all wrong and not to worry, I would get it if I keep at it.
Basically I feel yout pain
- Thread Starter
- #24
Sounds like you're a ram among sheep
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
That was years ago...These days I am old, beat-up, over-weight and just a fluffy as they were
"More for them not to practice." Hilarious. I am definitely going to use that line in class tonight. Thanks, Yak.
Don't be too hard on the guy. Under stress, primitive reflexes can totally take over. I've had similar experiences, which are easy to remember since I never got into a lot of fights.
One time was after I'd had about a year of WC/WT. A big guy at the crappy job I had got in my face, I snapped and decked him with the classic "haymaker" to the jaw. Not a bit of WC/WT or any other martial art. I just 'forgot" and reacted.
Second time happened at about five years later (that's to say about 25 years ago!). Same story. Me with a hot temper, different crappy job. Different big guy, always on my case, gets right up close in my face, puts a hand on my neck...and blowie. I reacted again. This time with a short-range, centerline, vertical-fist punch right to his solar plexus. He doubled over and I walked out the door.
I mostly remember these two events as moments of real immaturity and stupidity which resulted in me having to look for a new job ...evidence of a childish hot temper which I've since learned to control. But after reading Yak's comments, I now see something else there unrelated to the foolishness of my actions. The second time I used pure WC/WT. So, for better or worse, with time and practice, you do internalize this stuff.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
agreed!
cwk
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 288
- Reaction score
- 4
Yeah, I tried it but it didn't make any difference. Like yak Sao said, after a while you just get bored or frustrated and move on to something else. I do however limit the level of material they are exposed to and not just go off on a tangent and teach them all sorts. For example, all the drills,techniques, pad work etc, will be based on our fundamental 13 hands and 5 pieces of footwork.
Up to now I haven't taught any of them our SLT, not even the short version, and it's not because I don't want to but because I think it's a waste of time if they're not going to practice it. I mean, we all know that the only way to unlock SLT is to practice the hell out of it everyday.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
A "Dad's" Perspective:
With all the bashing going on in here, I felt the need to bring in the other side of the story.
I am not totally like the description here, but I am in my 40's; currently 2.5 years into my training; am a workout/fitness nut, so I train every moment I can both in/out of the dojo; happily married for 20 years; have two young boys; and hold a demanding white collar full-time job.
With this said, I have always been interested in the martial arts but never had the opportunity to pursue this interest due primarily for financial reasons. I take my training very seriously and work diligently to learn the material and keep myself fit. I have no timeline for advancing. I recongnize that my other committments will/have slowed my advancement. My instructors hold to their standards (as they should) and everyone advances at the speed of their own development (as it should be).
I am a bit offended that this board implies this makes me less of a martial arts practicioner.
My primary commitment is to my family and then to the job that allows me to participate in the arts. I will never change this priority of committments.
As I do not know anyone on this board I am going to make the assumption that the OP is young (20-30) with limited committments.
Sadly the cost of Martial Arts training limits the ability for younger audiences to participate, especially with the down-turned economy. Perhaps instead of insulting your revenue base, you should lower your rates to encourage more young participants (wink).
I hope you are not running your own schools with this attitude. Your contentment will easily surface and you enrollment will decline. Basic business principles.
I have a life time to go to complete my Martial Art journey. My only wish is that I had the capability of beginning my training earlier in life, but as one's path is not always chosen I have no regrets.
I am here now. Training Hard. Loyal Husband, Loving Father ("Dad").
With all the bashing going on in here, I felt the need to bring in the other side of the story.
I am not totally like the description here, but I am in my 40's; currently 2.5 years into my training; am a workout/fitness nut, so I train every moment I can both in/out of the dojo; happily married for 20 years; have two young boys; and hold a demanding white collar full-time job.
With this said, I have always been interested in the martial arts but never had the opportunity to pursue this interest due primarily for financial reasons. I take my training very seriously and work diligently to learn the material and keep myself fit. I have no timeline for advancing. I recongnize that my other committments will/have slowed my advancement. My instructors hold to their standards (as they should) and everyone advances at the speed of their own development (as it should be).
I am a bit offended that this board implies this makes me less of a martial arts practicioner.
My primary commitment is to my family and then to the job that allows me to participate in the arts. I will never change this priority of committments.
As I do not know anyone on this board I am going to make the assumption that the OP is young (20-30) with limited committments.
Sadly the cost of Martial Arts training limits the ability for younger audiences to participate, especially with the down-turned economy. Perhaps instead of insulting your revenue base, you should lower your rates to encourage more young participants (wink).
I hope you are not running your own schools with this attitude. Your contentment will easily surface and you enrollment will decline. Basic business principles.
I have a life time to go to complete my Martial Art journey. My only wish is that I had the capability of beginning my training earlier in life, but as one's path is not always chosen I have no regrets.
I am here now. Training Hard. Loyal Husband, Loving Father ("Dad").
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I'm a loyal husband and loving father too....and been through the 40s already
But with that said, I don't think anyone is directing any of this at you based on your description
But with that said, I don't think anyone is directing any of this at you based on your description
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
"Where are all the Fighters" implies that people with competing commitments are not serious about their training.
Everyone has different reasons to participate in the arts. One's motivations are their own.
If people want to competitively fight, they should seek the schools that cater to this, or re-market their own school with a ciriculum change. The instructors are the ones who set the tone for the instruction. They are the ones who recruit members to their schools.
If you cant attract the "fighters" perhaps one should look at themselves and take a closer look to understand how they promote/instruct.
just my $.02
Everyone has different reasons to participate in the arts. One's motivations are their own.
If people want to competitively fight, they should seek the schools that cater to this, or re-market their own school with a ciriculum change. The instructors are the ones who set the tone for the instruction. They are the ones who recruit members to their schools.
If you cant attract the "fighters" perhaps one should look at themselves and take a closer look to understand how they promote/instruct.
just my $.02
- Thread Starter
- #32
First of all chumley, I am 49 years old, have been training since I was 18. Every day.
I am married (24+ years)
2 sons, one in his 4th year of college, the youngest just graduated HS and will be starting in the fall.
I work full time, and have recently returned to school ( full time) as my job is on shaky grounds with the down economy.
I also teach Sunday school to a group of teenagers at my church every Sunday, So I understand busy.
I teach from my home in a workout room built off my garage and charge very little.
I don't do tournaments, nor do I encourage my students to do so.
I also understand priority. My wife was diagnosed with MS in 2003. I turned my school over to fellow instructors and decided to teach a few guys from my home who were begging me to teach them.
If you will go back and reread my OP and my subsequent posts, I repeatedly said I understand that people have lives.
All I am asking is for people to practice.
And by the way, from your self description, you are exactly the kind of student I would love to have.
I am married (24+ years)
2 sons, one in his 4th year of college, the youngest just graduated HS and will be starting in the fall.
I work full time, and have recently returned to school ( full time) as my job is on shaky grounds with the down economy.
I also teach Sunday school to a group of teenagers at my church every Sunday, So I understand busy.
I teach from my home in a workout room built off my garage and charge very little.
I don't do tournaments, nor do I encourage my students to do so.
I also understand priority. My wife was diagnosed with MS in 2003. I turned my school over to fellow instructors and decided to teach a few guys from my home who were begging me to teach them.
If you will go back and reread my OP and my subsequent posts, I repeatedly said I understand that people have lives.
All I am asking is for people to practice.
And by the way, from your self description, you are exactly the kind of student I would love to have.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
My comments are more directed at the other posts, rather than yours.
Just lots of contentment for equal or greater life choices.
If others are participating for a Hobby.....let them....that is their motivation.....Just don't advance them.....
We have an idividual in our school that attends once a week, and does very little training outside due to his demanding physcially intensive job. He has been Orange Belt for close to 2 years. He is fine with this and understands, yet he still comes to learn.......
He is a great guy and does what he can when he can.
Not sure why some find this offensive.
Is this the core of the school? No.
Is he a good person to work with? Yes.
Just lots of contentment for equal or greater life choices.
If others are participating for a Hobby.....let them....that is their motivation.....Just don't advance them.....
We have an idividual in our school that attends once a week, and does very little training outside due to his demanding physcially intensive job. He has been Orange Belt for close to 2 years. He is fine with this and understands, yet he still comes to learn.......
He is a great guy and does what he can when he can.
Not sure why some find this offensive.
Is this the core of the school? No.
Is he a good person to work with? Yes.
Last edited:
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
From a teachers perspective you want to help your students do better but you can only do so much in class, but if he is happy and not holding back anyone else it’s all good
But, and I would not call it offensive I would call it annoying, if you have a student who you have to show the same exact thing to over and over again, every single week because he does not practice outside of class and because of this constant demand for repetition you are slowing down the rest of the class then there is a problem.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
mook jong man
Senior Master
I have encountered these problems as well with the private students I teach.
One guy will practice Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu everyday and even if he misses a few weeks of training with me , he will come back and I will notice little degradation of his skill , in fact some things may have even improved.
Another guy I'm pretty certain only does the Siu Nim Tao when I'm there doing it with him , he trains once a week.
If something comes up and he misses a week or two , then next time I have to spend most of the lesson time re-teaching him four corner deflection and Chi Sau .
If he could just get himself to spend five minutes doing the Siu Nim Tao everyday then he could make some progress and I wouldn't be constantly pulling him up about his stance and other basics.
One guy will practice Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu everyday and even if he misses a few weeks of training with me , he will come back and I will notice little degradation of his skill , in fact some things may have even improved.
Another guy I'm pretty certain only does the Siu Nim Tao when I'm there doing it with him , he trains once a week.
If something comes up and he misses a week or two , then next time I have to spend most of the lesson time re-teaching him four corner deflection and Chi Sau .
If he could just get himself to spend five minutes doing the Siu Nim Tao everyday then he could make some progress and I wouldn't be constantly pulling him up about his stance and other basics.
mograph
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,826
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I think you're reading too much into this. Nobody is saying that the student who practices less than the instructor desires is somehow of deficient character. I believe that the instructors have certain expectations of progress, and most students are not meeting them for whatever reasons. There is a gap between expectations and reality, creating discomfort in the instructor. To resolve this, it may be best to change expectations, as you may have suggested (difficult to check on the iPad), as reality is harder to change.
Times change. Sometimes there's more fighters around than other times, yet still we teach, still we train, still we love it all. Whatever the reason people train, we help them, just like someone helped us. Bottom line, that's our job.
It's all good. But, damn, I, too, wish there were more fighters around!
It's all good. But, damn, I, too, wish there were more fighters around!
simplewc101
Yellow Belt
I'm no Sifu, but I hear what OP is saying.
Not everyone is a fighter. Doesn't mean they aren't a hobbyist or an enthusiast, which is fine. To each their own.
I started wing chun because I saw that my fighting skills weren't horrible, but they weren't all that great, especially against faster, stronger, or more experienced people. I want to learn how to fight and win.
After some time at a WC school, I learned that not everyone can put as much time or energy into learning and practicing as I can due to all the commitments stated by others in this thread. That's just life, people have business to attend too and that fine. I'm sure they do as much as they feel necessary given their goals and their other commitments.
Other people 'just don't get it'. Not their fault, but they just don't. Not everyone can be a good fighter (or remember half the stuff they are taught) even if they put all they have into it.
I agree with whoever said that MMA is the thing to do these days and that's where lots of the "fighters" go. Maybe it's just me, but after you've been in some fights, you realize that banging force against force isn't always the best option, and fights can be won faster and easier with some skill and theory. Stand on the shoulders of giants ( all the hundreds of years of martial arts fighters- from muay thai to kali to wing chun) and you will be able to see further. But not everyone thinks martial arts is 'cool' or practical, due to the culture and their own misunderstanding. For some reason, all Americans think that they are born with the ability to box and take care of themselves in a street fight.
I have been blessed with a school that has some 'fighters' in it and Sifu continues to teach to our level and provide us with the knowledge and training we need.
Not everyone is a fighter. Doesn't mean they aren't a hobbyist or an enthusiast, which is fine. To each their own.
I started wing chun because I saw that my fighting skills weren't horrible, but they weren't all that great, especially against faster, stronger, or more experienced people. I want to learn how to fight and win.
After some time at a WC school, I learned that not everyone can put as much time or energy into learning and practicing as I can due to all the commitments stated by others in this thread. That's just life, people have business to attend too and that fine. I'm sure they do as much as they feel necessary given their goals and their other commitments.
Other people 'just don't get it'. Not their fault, but they just don't. Not everyone can be a good fighter (or remember half the stuff they are taught) even if they put all they have into it.
I agree with whoever said that MMA is the thing to do these days and that's where lots of the "fighters" go. Maybe it's just me, but after you've been in some fights, you realize that banging force against force isn't always the best option, and fights can be won faster and easier with some skill and theory. Stand on the shoulders of giants ( all the hundreds of years of martial arts fighters- from muay thai to kali to wing chun) and you will be able to see further. But not everyone thinks martial arts is 'cool' or practical, due to the culture and their own misunderstanding. For some reason, all Americans think that they are born with the ability to box and take care of themselves in a street fight.
I have been blessed with a school that has some 'fighters' in it and Sifu continues to teach to our level and provide us with the knowledge and training we need.
I have slightly different perspectives than many others, but the following three perspectives have changed the way I teach and train. They have increased my patience, understanding, and empathy while also helping to focus my attention on what is really important (my own training as a student and instructor) and thereby increasing my skills and value.
But first a disclaimer. While I have attended a bunch of CMA seminars over the years and have friends that train in various CMA styles, I do not train or teach a CMA.
Before I offer up the first perspective, I would like every instructor who has ever taught a perfect class to raise their hand. Those with their hands raised do not need to read any further of my post, perhaps down thread there will be something of value. Any student of any martial art that has had a perfect class, everything they learned they were able to do from first to last with perfect understanding and ability, please raise your hand. Those students with your hands raised, you do not need to read any further of this post, feel free in giving your attention down thread.
I will be writing from the perspective of an instructor but will say that the perspectives if embraced are beneficial no matter a persons rank or current skill level.
All three perspectives offer perhaps a new way of seeing and appreciating, new eyes if you will. With these new eyes will come a new vision of what can be and how to get there.
First, we all know people that wish that they could learn martial arts. They watch some movie and think, wow, that would be great Others have been beaten down by circumstances and life and wish to learn martial arts, but do not have enough self esteem, enough gumption left to step thru the door and onto the floor. Some folks are so out of shape that they have given up the idea of becoming fitter and healthier, letting their healthy inside person only live in fantasy. Some have gotten off the couch and driven by a dojo, it is a first step but the only one that they will make. Others actually pull into the parking lot and watch a class from their car thinking, I could never do that as they pull back out the parking lot. Some even make it into class, maybe watch a lesson and grab some information, yet never take that necessary step of actually getting on the floor and starting their training journey. I would bet we all know hundreds of people that wanted to learn martial arts yet never made it, never tried, never went beyond the longing and wishing. Then there are our students. The housewife that steps way out of her comfort zone, the police officer willing to take his own time and effort and step up to learn new skills, the doctor putting into practice their own preaching. All of our students, even if they only last a single day, a single lesson have done something that millions of others have wanted to do, but, for whatever reason never have. Each student has any number of legitimate reasons to skip the training, to put it off, to shun the work and sweat, yet they get off the couch, leave work early, get home late and make all kinds of sacrifices on a journey that once started never really ends. Those that actually make it onto the floor should have the thanks and appreciation of both instructors and fellow students as getting over that initial hurdle. If a person thinks about how many want to there but never get there, it is kind of heroic that the students persisted and made it to their car, drove to the school, entered the school and stepped onto the floor, while so many others did not. So many opportunities to turn around and fail, yet here they are, ready to grow.
Second, a confession. I have never taught a perfect class, heck, never been the perfect student either. I have lots of room to improve my articulation, my presentation of the drills and skills, my attention and ability to reach each student. Seeing every difficult student as well as every gifted student and those somewhere in-between, as an opportunity to practice the art part of teaching has given me ample opportunities to practice and grow. Yes, they have been shown a hundred and one times now, but, perhaps this one hundred and second repetition will be the one that finally makes it theirs. Besides, it is not just their hundredth attempt but also the instructors hundredth opportunity to practice teaching it..
Third, no one is guaranteed a tomorrow. Tonight my be the last. This very interaction, might be the last. How will it go? What will be remembered, what will be appreciated if there were no more tomorrows. Perhaps this was the last class taught. Perhaps the last class attended. Resentful, disappointed, disgusted, impatient, helpful, supportive, appreciative, insightful, which words are wanted to describe the last lesson?
Fourth, yeah I know I said three. Sigh, see I do make a lot of mistakes and often misspeak. Some see the tourist, the part time student, the difficult student as holding back a class. In some ways that might be true, but, at the same time they are giving the more disciplined or gifted students a tool to gauge their own progress. Perhaps when the disciplined student first started the tourist was much better than they were, but after only a year passing and now the tourist is near helpless before them. Or, perhaps they have been much better than the hobbyist, but tonight, the difficult sometime student finally got it right, just for a moment, but the timing and technique were right on and they caught the more disciplined or gifted student while sparring. Both examples can be motivating I would think.
Like watching a small child take their very first step, watching students grow, no matter how deep or how lengthy the process, can be very rewarding. Even if there are falls and reversals that first beautiful step was taken and can be further built on. Some will be sprinters, others long distance runners, others might take up swimming. It is all good.
Warmest Regards
Brian King
But first a disclaimer. While I have attended a bunch of CMA seminars over the years and have friends that train in various CMA styles, I do not train or teach a CMA.
Before I offer up the first perspective, I would like every instructor who has ever taught a perfect class to raise their hand. Those with their hands raised do not need to read any further of my post, perhaps down thread there will be something of value. Any student of any martial art that has had a perfect class, everything they learned they were able to do from first to last with perfect understanding and ability, please raise your hand. Those students with your hands raised, you do not need to read any further of this post, feel free in giving your attention down thread.
I will be writing from the perspective of an instructor but will say that the perspectives if embraced are beneficial no matter a persons rank or current skill level.
All three perspectives offer perhaps a new way of seeing and appreciating, new eyes if you will. With these new eyes will come a new vision of what can be and how to get there.
First, we all know people that wish that they could learn martial arts. They watch some movie and think, wow, that would be great Others have been beaten down by circumstances and life and wish to learn martial arts, but do not have enough self esteem, enough gumption left to step thru the door and onto the floor. Some folks are so out of shape that they have given up the idea of becoming fitter and healthier, letting their healthy inside person only live in fantasy. Some have gotten off the couch and driven by a dojo, it is a first step but the only one that they will make. Others actually pull into the parking lot and watch a class from their car thinking, I could never do that as they pull back out the parking lot. Some even make it into class, maybe watch a lesson and grab some information, yet never take that necessary step of actually getting on the floor and starting their training journey. I would bet we all know hundreds of people that wanted to learn martial arts yet never made it, never tried, never went beyond the longing and wishing. Then there are our students. The housewife that steps way out of her comfort zone, the police officer willing to take his own time and effort and step up to learn new skills, the doctor putting into practice their own preaching. All of our students, even if they only last a single day, a single lesson have done something that millions of others have wanted to do, but, for whatever reason never have. Each student has any number of legitimate reasons to skip the training, to put it off, to shun the work and sweat, yet they get off the couch, leave work early, get home late and make all kinds of sacrifices on a journey that once started never really ends. Those that actually make it onto the floor should have the thanks and appreciation of both instructors and fellow students as getting over that initial hurdle. If a person thinks about how many want to there but never get there, it is kind of heroic that the students persisted and made it to their car, drove to the school, entered the school and stepped onto the floor, while so many others did not. So many opportunities to turn around and fail, yet here they are, ready to grow.
Second, a confession. I have never taught a perfect class, heck, never been the perfect student either. I have lots of room to improve my articulation, my presentation of the drills and skills, my attention and ability to reach each student. Seeing every difficult student as well as every gifted student and those somewhere in-between, as an opportunity to practice the art part of teaching has given me ample opportunities to practice and grow. Yes, they have been shown a hundred and one times now, but, perhaps this one hundred and second repetition will be the one that finally makes it theirs. Besides, it is not just their hundredth attempt but also the instructors hundredth opportunity to practice teaching it..
Third, no one is guaranteed a tomorrow. Tonight my be the last. This very interaction, might be the last. How will it go? What will be remembered, what will be appreciated if there were no more tomorrows. Perhaps this was the last class taught. Perhaps the last class attended. Resentful, disappointed, disgusted, impatient, helpful, supportive, appreciative, insightful, which words are wanted to describe the last lesson?
Fourth, yeah I know I said three. Sigh, see I do make a lot of mistakes and often misspeak. Some see the tourist, the part time student, the difficult student as holding back a class. In some ways that might be true, but, at the same time they are giving the more disciplined or gifted students a tool to gauge their own progress. Perhaps when the disciplined student first started the tourist was much better than they were, but after only a year passing and now the tourist is near helpless before them. Or, perhaps they have been much better than the hobbyist, but tonight, the difficult sometime student finally got it right, just for a moment, but the timing and technique were right on and they caught the more disciplined or gifted student while sparring. Both examples can be motivating I would think.
Like watching a small child take their very first step, watching students grow, no matter how deep or how lengthy the process, can be very rewarding. Even if there are falls and reversals that first beautiful step was taken and can be further built on. Some will be sprinters, others long distance runners, others might take up swimming. It is all good.
Warmest Regards
Brian King
