The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).

Callen

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Punching is such a small part of Wing Chun.
I think it depends on how you look at it. Many will tell you that the vertical punch is the cornerstone to Wing Chun mechanics. Remove the fist and replace it with any shape, (palm, taan, fuk, jam, lap, etc...) and you still have all the same concepts, mechanics and structure of the system at work.

Crane style? That's the advanced stuff, and a lot of it is evasion/defense.
The more Wing Chun is understood and trained as a unified gong fu system, the less need there is to attempt to separate it into prioritized parts. Thats why a lot of folks believe that there is no advanced Wing Chun, theres only the greater ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the whole system into a single reaction.

I agree that Crane, as it's own style, is very cool though...
 

Oily Dragon

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I think it depends on how you look at it. Many will tell you that the vertical punch is the cornerstone to Wing Chun mechanics. Remove the fist and replace it with any shape, (palm, taan, fuk, jam, lap, etc...) and you still have all the same concepts, mechanics and structure of the system at work.


The more Wing Chun is understood and trained as a unified gong fu system, the less need there is to attempt to separate it into prioritized parts. Thats why a lot of folks believe that there is no advanced Wing Chun, theres only the greater ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the whole system into a single reaction.

I agree that Crane, as it's own style, is very cool though...
Pretty much. Wing Chun is a distillation of earlier styles, somebody did the work. But we are stuck in a world where a lot of Wing Chun got lost along the way. I often say this here (sometimes upsetting people) but the skill gap in Wing Chun vs other CMA is kind of obvious, and it shows up in Sanshou. I'd like more Wing Chun in Sanshou, I think that would really improve the quality.

Somebody asked me to show him a kung fu technique you can use in MMA. So I raised my left knee like to check a kick, and then threw a straight kick right my right.

Dude says na, that's Muay Thai bro. But I hadn't trained Muay Thai yet back then. Both were southern Crane, highly effective.

When I went through Wing Chun, the animal influences kind of clicked because I'd seen them before. Also, how different CMA systems organize material. So much material is shared and has the same name and structure, but there are little differences you wouldn't notice without a knowledgeable teacher (Hung Kuen's stances have very specific instructions for training vs sparring).

And then you have things like empty legged stances, there are soo many different ones but they all do the same basic thing (weight distro).

This is why I always advocate Wing Chun people to not consider themselves that. I'm not a Xing Yi, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Hung Ga guy.

Just Kung Fu guy is fine. And when people ask which kind, I say yes.
 
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geezer

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I am from Serbia. And you ?
I'm from Arizona in the southwest of the USA. I don't know much about Serbia, but I live in Suburbia, if that helps. :D

Oh, and my Wing Chun training partner is originally from Croatia which is next door to you.
 

Oily Dragon

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I think this is an important takeaway. It's all gong fu
And to be perfectly clear, this whole issue isn't just limited to Wing Chun. People in all the styles often bog themselves down with technical jargon, history, etc. And all that stuff is really cool but...

It's not training. People back in the Ming Dynasty didn't have any of that, it was just hard work that made people sharp, strong and healthy. I'm positive Wing Chun forms training alone has some health benefits (at least you're standing!), but it's a far cry from what people like Alan Orr do (apply it) or the few remaining masters have done throughout their journey.

Sifu Kwok!! 74 years old, look at this. Cynthia Rothrock personally recorded this.

 

JowGaWolf

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And to be perfectly clear, this whole issue isn't just limited to Wing Chun. People in all the styles often bog themselves down with technical jargon, history, etc. And all that stuff is really cool but...

It's not training. People back in the Ming Dynasty didn't have any of that, it was just hard work that made people sharp, strong and healthy. I'm positive Wing Chun forms training alone has some health benefits (at least you're standing!), but it's a far cry from what people like Alan Orr do (apply it) or the few remaining masters have done throughout their journey.

Sifu Kwok!! 74 years old, look at this. Cynthia Rothrock personally recorded this.

Why do people fail to capture the footwork?
 

SifuBoza

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I'm from Arizona in the southwest of the USA. I don't know much about Serbia, but I live in Suburbia, if that helps. :D

Oh, and my Wing Chun training partner is originally from Croatia which is next door to you.
Ohhh cool. What is your wing chun level ? I can train you, your training partner can understand me..we speak same language
 

Oily Dragon

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Why do people fail to capture the footwork?
Probably for the same reason Wing Chun students often try to convince me YGKYM is a fighting stance, not realizing it's the internal Crane style adduction training stance for like, a dozen southern CMA, not to mention the Shaolin Iron Wire itself (which actually uses several different versions of it, narrow, wide, stepping into and out of it from different directions).

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Wing Chun people who do videos on Youtube and stuff...they just don't move. They stand in one place and try to demo all sorts of things. As if fighting happens in a little box. I saw a video one time called FOOM or something that had laughing so hard, this guy was trying to show that Wing Chun is FOOM FOOM FOOM and boom you're roadkill.

Even Xing Yi, which has a definite focus on fencing-style centerline fighting, still moves all over the place even in training and sparring. I think this might be why people who do train both Wing Chun and in an open full contact environment, do just fine. I go to the tourneys, but I rarely see this type of student in this particular art. Sad sanshou panda.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Probably for the same reason Wing Chun students often try to convince me YGKYM is a fighting stance,
To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.

stand_on_boat.jpg


Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find some opening to attack".



 
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Oily Dragon

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To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.

View attachment 28880

Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find some opening to attack".



If you're saying adduction helps for fighting on boats, sure. Not that many people do that these days.

But given the range of YGKYM in the southern styles, it's kind of clear that like a lot of the stances, there are training versions for flexibility and rooting, and there are different versions for live combat.

I don't think it's possibly to really say it was never used in northern China. It's a pretty universal concept, adduction. It's used heavily in grappling arts (squeezing with the upper legs). Also horse riding, and sex.

Here's a really creepy Facebook video I found that describes it.

 
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geezer

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To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.
For once I'm going to have to side with Oily on this one. Narrow stances similar to Wing Chun are widely used in Southern short-bridge systems and they are effective in striking arts. That they were developed specifically for fighting on boats is a romantic notion, nothing more.

Besides if you were really fighting on a tippy little boat, wouldn't you drop your center of gravity and hunker down in a really deep horse stance? I would!
 

Oily Dragon

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For once I'm going to have to side with Oily on this one. Narrow stances similar to Wing Chun are widely used in Southern short-bridge systems and they are effective in striking arts. That they were developed specifically for fighting on boats is a romantic notion, nothing more.

Besides if you were really fighting on a tippy little boat, wouldn't you drop your center of gravity and hunker down in a really deep horse stance? I would!
I'm conflicted. I've actually trained on boats. It really depends on the craft.

I think Xing Yi stances would work well on a small boat, too. Or a surfboard.
 
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geezer

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I'm conflicted. I've actually trained on boats. It really depends on the craft.

I think Xing Yi stances would work well on a small boat, too. Or a surfboard.
That would make a fun video!

...reminds me of my college days in the 70's, jousting on skateboards with brooms in the dorm hallways. The drinking age was 19 then, so beer was definitely involved.
 

obi_juan_salami

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Nema skole, vezbam "iza zatvorenih vrata"...ako ste zainteresovani mozemo vezbati. Koji wing chun vi vezbate ?
tako je najbolje ako nae禳 pravog majstora. kako se zove? ili koja 'linija'?

鱉ivim puno daleko od vas u australiji 鱉alostno

mi treniramo guagzhou wing chun 'isto iza zatvorena vrata'
 

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