What's Wrong With Kata?

[shesulsa]

Gary L Romel, Esq.

Are you an attorney?

 

[GaryR]

I think your article is correct in pointing out some of the ways that some people train kata in an ineffective way. But I feel like your premise is that this is the fault of the kata themselves, or is a necessary result of practicing kata, rather than people's misunderstanding of what they are for and how to train them.

I am sure there is a spectrum of how effective and ineffective Kata is trained to be used in combat. The thrust of my premise is this--"The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought. Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal. It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion." In that respect this key failure of timely combat preparation is the fault of long kata.

Some of the training methods you propose are things which people would ideally be doing in addition to the kata anyway.

Well, sure they should be doing that anyway, there is only so much time in a day, and in a training session, unfortunately, many schools make kata a disproportionate component. I can see why, it's easy to line people up en mass and teach kata all day, as opposed to imparting real combative skill.

I disagree that longer kata require students to stop and start their movements, it is the reverse, in fact. The longer a kata, the more opportunity to practice flowing and transitioning between various techniques

When learning a long kata most people have to stop and start to remember what they are doing next. This engages a different part of the brain and changes the learning process. Thus the long kata prolongs the students ability to perform continuous flowing methods, and apply such methods under duress.

Ever see taijiquan, or other northern Chinese martial arts? They have very long forms which are nothing but "flow". Breaking down a kata and mixing up the movements, drilling techniques and combinations in a more realistic manner with partners, is something that everyone should be doing if self defense is the goal.

My teaching is largely based on Taijiquan. So yes, I am an instructor in Taijiquan and a very familiar. I know the Long forms (old yang), and short forms among other things. They do flow well, but it's better to do it in smaller chunks. The long forms are good for health and relaxation. Most Tai Chi people cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. This is a product of only doing long forms and little application. Even trying to learn application from the whole 100+move form is cumbersome and does not result in functional skill in any appreciable amount of time. At most I like to have students learn the first third of the old yang form, this however is not a the focus of the training, its something to memorize and practice on the side. Other short form drills and two person drills are the focus, then when the form is learned it becomes more apparant what it is used for. Moreover, I combined Baguazhang, Xingyi, and Liu He Ba fa into it. Thus the short motion drill are not pure Tajiquan. Most Kata/forms are not as optimally translatable to real combat, hence the reorganization, combination, and smaller chunking.

It is not kata which stop someone from doing that, it is the misuse of kata in many modern martial art schools. Kata are useful in several ways: they are a catalogue of techniques, principles, and strategies.

I like the catalog analogy, I have often said Kata is like a textbook (I think someone on this thread said the same).
But practically you don't memorize an entire textbook. I was on the board of my Honor Society in Law School, and students often came to me for academic / study advice. One girl insisted on reading the textbook cover to cover in preparation for her exam. I highly discouraged her from doing this, and said to use what they call an "examples and explanations" book, which broke the material down section by section into manageable and abbreviated chapters and concepts. I also encouraged her to use a good outline, basically the index of the textbook so to speak, with a tad more content. Needless to say, she didn't listen, and tried to memorize the textbook. When exam time came she nearly failed the exam. The next time she took my advice and got an A in a more difficult subject! You may want to read the book once (as I said kata has a place for raw newbies), but for actual study and digestion it should be done in smaller doses, quality over quantity.

They are a study in combinations, flow, and transitions that have been found to be usefull (at least in the case of traditional kata). They are a way to practice alone as well as to encapsule the system of fighting. They are a jumping off point for exactly the type of training you are proposing. The practice of a kata should culminate in a pratitioner being able to perform any part of any kata in any order, in any direction, exchange movements and adapt them to different situations.

I very much agree, kata should do this, but the longer the kata, the longer it takes, and the less chance it will be combat viable. We agree that a practitioner should be able to perform their form in any order, any direction, and adapt. Doing long forms solo doesn't seem to cultivate this skill as efficiently...hence my "break it up" section.

You are right that some people have unreasonable and unrealistic expectations about what a kata is and how it applies to self-defense, and do not often go in-depth enough into their study. This is not an inevitable result of practicing kata, but is evidence that many people did not receive complete understanding of the kata and the styles which use them, which is a systemic problem in western commercial martial arts descended from instructors who received lacking instruction in the first place.

For sure unreasonable expectation is a huge problem. I think part of the reason for the systemic problem of the watering down of the arts is a frenzy to learn lots of forms for rank, and that kata obsession makes one feel like they know a lot, and have a high skill level.

So ultimately, it isn't "what's wrong with kata". It should be "what's wrong with your training?" or "Are you training your kata in a useful way?"

It's all of the above. Before the days of video, and real research on how "muscle" memory works, long Kata's were used as transmission for the systems as was said on this thread. There is no reason to attempt to memorize a textbook, put it on the shelf after the initial go so you can recognize the basic structure, and then work it in pieces in a real combative digestible context. I think this method could count as your statement "are you using kata in a useful way"--hence my "break it up" point.

Regards,

Gary

 

[shesulsa]

I've seen the viability of kata argued, counter-argued, picked apart so VERY many times on MartialTalk as well as in live convo and I'll say this:

One person's perception of kata is simply and only that. Perhaps there are arts that are kata heavy or very reliant on the laundry list approach to advancement. How students are taught - not just kata but everything - is the indicator as to how their training and the syllabus they study will serve them. If you impart a kata upon a student and never show them how the moves they are doing apply in utilization then that is your failure as a teacher.

I *did* learn flow from hyung and the material heavy syllabus I trained with afforded me the ability to employ the principals of the art in self-defense situations rather than produce a replica of a short form, long form, basic combination or other choreographed series of movements ... and this was largely because of other methods included in our regular training.

The OP seems to imply that most training is kata-centered with little else. That assumption could be faulty.

Nevertheless, I too await the video.

 

[Jin Gang]

If the only objective for training is combat efficiency in the shortest amount of time, then I agree. Memorizing long forms, or using forms at all, are not necessary or efficient. Forms are a long term project. Knowing more of them and spending all your time memorizing new ones is not productive, that is agreed. But again, that is not something wrong with the forms themselves, just people's approach to forms. There is more to taijiquan (and many martial arts) than just fighting, and learning to fight in a short amount of time is certainly not something taijiquan is known for. People only have to stop and start to remember what they are doing in the initial learning phase. Once the memorization is complete, and after sufficient repetition, the form starts becoming muscle memory regardless of its length, and the flow begins. Yes, the longer the form the longer the learning process, but I see the benefit gained from spending that time to be worth it. I also disagree that the long forms are not translateable to real combat. Like you said, if training progresses with the right priorities and in the right order, isolated techniques and partner drills are learned before and alongside the form, so you immediately know what the movements of the form are used for; the length of a form doesn't negate that. So I get what you are doing, I just wouldn't do it myself. I relish in the long, patient path of self-discovery, some forms are good for this. To each his own, I guess. I think devoting some time to practicing the moving mantra or meditation of a long form is equally important as drilling combat applications of the techniques. This is built into the systems which tend to use forms like this, reaching back to their roots in health and longevity exercises practiced by monastics that were paired with fighting methods to create the ancestors of the styles we have now. So my argument is not necessarily with your logic, but there are divergent motivations for training. If immediate and efficient teaching of combat/fighting skills are the goal then you don't want forms at all, really, at least not longer than a few techniques in combination, and you want to spend maximum amount of time building attributes and learning to apply a small number of techniques against resistance. Based on the way the martial arts of China and those descended from China are structured, I come to the conclusion that this is not the only goal for most of them.

 

[Cyriacus]

If the only objective for training is combat efficiency in the shortest amount of time,

To be fair, if thats your objective then the first mistake was ever learning a technique at all

 

[K-man]

Great, we agree on some things! A small minority..we at least agree on that.

I think it is sad commentary, but yes only a small number of karate schools train with reality based kata bunkai.

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If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced.

Sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata. If sparring looks like a dance, it is a dance.

Train like you fight and fight like you train. Sparring should be used as a tool that leads to proper combative application. Thus, if Kata doesn't represent sparring, all the worse.

I repeat, sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata and sparring from a distance has nothing to do with bunkai.

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Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal.

Memorising' long sequences is different to 'practising them until they bypass cognitive thought'. Memorising a kata for grading is useless as a means of self defence. It is just a test of memory.However, many of the guys training in the early days of karate only learned one or two kata in a lifetime.

Your highlighted quote is exactly what the article is trying to get across. That was the training of yesteryear, not the norm now. I think it better for a quicker turn-around to not have a student memorize long forms, and then sparse applications on the way. Most people these days don't have the patience to train that way, and most schools wouldnt stay in buisness if they did that.

Yesteryear was where this all came from. Training then wasn't commercial and my training now is not commercial either. If you are saying that commercialising martial arts is destroying the understanding of kata, I would agree, but that is a statement on where martial arts are today, not the usefulness of kata in RBSD.

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Then again, I have Erle Montaigue's book, "Dim-Mak's 12 Most Deadly Katas", and those kata are only a few moves. But they are moves in sequence.

Yup, good book, and good video as well. Only a few moves is exactly what I was talking about your own short kata, not the traidional long kata. I believe Erle created those for that exact purpose.

Erle did NOT create the kata. They are traditional Bagua or Dim Mak kata.

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It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion.

Sorry, this does not mean anything to me.
I'm sorry about that, perhaps there is some literature you can find on the topic.

What I am saying is the sentence is a nonsense! Literature will not help me understand it.

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While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

This brings us to our fundamental difference. We train kata, as bunkai, in a close combat setting every session. It may be in small segments but it is always in sequence and it always follows the kata. It is practised in such a way that should the technique fail, the next move in the kata gives you back the momentum.


Would you agree that a majority of schools do not do this? (I think you stated this above). Small segments is exactly what I meant when I said “break it up”. Always doing it in sequence is shorting yourself on combative training, Ill bet that your sequence will not work everytime, to every attackers sequence. Especially if your move doesnt pan out as planned, it is very likely the next move in the Kata will not cut it.

Yes, I would agree that the majority of schools do not do this, but that is the problem of the teaching, not the kata. Using the bunkai as I have described in close combat will work every time. However, if the attacker manages to block the blow, or resist the technique, the next move in the kata will, most times, keep you with the momentum. If not you just have to start again.

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The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns.

I really can't understand what you are saying. What is "the concept on which the technique turns"?

This is a very fact dependant statement and context. The concept could be—intercepting/blending on a horizontal plane whilst driving through your targed, with a certain flavor even. Clear as Mudd?

No. This is not plain English. It makes no sense at all.

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This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place.

If what you are saying is right, it seems a total waste of time teaching kata at all, and in fact I know a number of schools that have removed kata from their syllabus.

Yes, in the self-defense context, it can be a total waste—but as I said before, breaking it up and mixing it up in small segments drilled and applied over and over can be usefull, and can be included.

This is an oxymoron. Learning the kata is useless but learning the kata in small bits is useful?

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No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight.

Kata, by itself was never intended to "prepare someone to fight". Kata is just a means of preserving and transferring knowledge.

You may get some disagreement on that from a large percentage of Martial Artists. I agree it is a means of preserving knowledge, but now we have video, e-books, and students need not perform and commit to long term memory such long sequences to preserve the arts. There is a cost/benefit to such traning, and depending on your goals, the long kata is to much of a detriment combativly.

Then I would like any one of that large percentage of Martial Artists to show me how the kata, without the bunkai, will help anyone to fight. It is a nonsense as kata is the kihon form of training .. the 'Shu' in 'Shu-Ha-Ri'

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Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Once again, you are describing exactly what we do every training session.

Do you do adrenal stress training—how many times do you have a complete adrenal dump while practing in your training sessions? I am talking real-world, full contact, much different than a very controled clinical situation, which the vast majority of schools that do teach applications use. Again using the exact sequence necessarily makes a lot of assumptions about a real conflict. I bet in one session I can demonstrate how many of your sequences will fail you –I've done so to dozens of instructors.

Full contact yes, with appropriate equipment. Adrenal Stress training? Not as a real life or death situation. I don't believe that is easily reproducible, even with equipment like "red man".

Saying that you can demonstrate that sequences of techniques will fail is just wind. Am I able to use the potentially lethal and destructive techniques on you on the off chance you might stop them? I doubt it, and I doubt my insurance would cover it. However, if you are every in Australia, you are welcome to train with us.

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Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement.

Learning the kata is just the first step. Worrying about how a move looks, or how perfect you are performing it, smacks of competition or grading, not reality. Getting to the stage that the next step in the kata flows naturally is the whole aim of performing the kata over and over. Achieving the relaxation and fluidity you describe is what the objective should be. That is why it takes so long to achieve. That is why it is so much easier to learn Boxing or Muay Thai.

Yup, it does smack of grading, which was my first point. Many students focus on that grade. It does take a long time to achieve the above with a long kata, exactly my point. Such things can be better accomoplished, and at a much faster rate doing short motion drills/fewer moves strung together.


What do you suppose the percentage of Black Belts are that can beat a boxer in a real fight? I don't think its very good for the foregoing reasons.

Are you really serious? A boxer fighting without rules or as a boxer? A Black Belt karateka able to utilise all his techniques?
Same height and weight? Too many variables but the odds favour the karateka. But what has that to do with kata. You have already stated that very few schools teach kata as RBSD. The BB is just an average BB.

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Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death.

Are you now saying that you can use kata but .. ? If so we have changed direction but let's look at it. Continuous movement is certainly desirable, and yes a certain attack may not always be effective. I purposefully left defence out of the previous sentence because by its very nature, defence cannot be within a kata or it would require an attack at a particular point. Defence can only occur in the opening move.

I said--''By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory”. The longer the kata/sequence the more difficult to achieve such continuous movement.


I think your defense point is a semantical argument. If in the middle of an altercation the person throws another punch, kick, knee, elbow, et al, you will be neutralizing that attack somehow, and that contitutes a “defense”.

If you are using the bunkai as a fighting system, it is unlikely another punch etc will be thrown, but assuming for some reason it is, it doesn't matter. There are two scenarios. First the possibility of a strike is factored in or you stuff up and have to start over. But the specific act of blocking an attack is not in the kata and may or may not be inherent in the bunkai.

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Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

No! No! No! Not another article. This article! This is what it is all about. In bunkai your very move creates the possibility of a predetermined response. Either they block or protect as you know they will or you knock their head off. What you have stated is what bunkai is all about. Mate, call it what you like. "Counter Offensive Tactics" is fine by me.

Lol, ok. I did not mention Bunkai in the article. I do agree that sometimes your very move creates the possibility of a pretermined response, but such response cannot be counted on, just as the next move in your kata sequence cannot be counted on. There is more that goes into my term...but again, another long explaination.

The response can be counted on in as much as he protects or he gets hit. Iain Abernethy has some great material out demonstrating just what we are discussing.

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Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy.

Sorry Gary, where back on opposite sides. Kata ha no 'tit-for-tat'. Two step and three step stuff was constructed as sparring drill for tournament fighting. Nothing to do with reality. Almost all of that I have come across is done from 'sparring distance' and has as much in common with RBSD as a pelican has to a pumpkin.

Ha, love the pelican analogy. Again, a sparring drill should be a bridge to reality, unfortunately in most cases it is not. But that has lead to most schools using and teaching kata in such a fashion. I'm betting if you demonstrated your kata I could point out some examples...maybe, maybe your version is very unique.

My kata would not inspire you. My knees are too old to get too low. There are hundreds of thousands of martial artists who could perform better technical kata than me. But, again, the kata is kihon, basics, the Shu form.

The bunkai, as we train it, does not rely on a specific attack and I do not teach specific counters to any form of attack, even more importantly when weapons are involved. So we do not have counters either, although in a way you could say that perhaps our first attack is a counter in the strictest sense. We have a sequence of specific attacks that continue until the attacker is disabled, one move or five.The fact that we can do this very training session demonstrates that it is not 'reckless fallacy'. It is what you train. I have no problem that you don't train it, but keep an open mind to what is possible, even if you haven't seen it first hand.

Great, but a kata DOES offer a specific move, and thus a counter. Thus your bunkai seems to differ from your kata movement, which is another topic, and demonstrates the point of my article.

Kata offers a specific move but the bunkai might give you six or more applications. I search youtube before for an example of Gedan Barai and it took forever to find someone performing it the way we were taught. If you are interested we could perhaps discuss that in a different thread.

I definitely agree that attacking until someone is disabled is the way to go, but again that predetermined sequence is assuming your attacks may not be foiled, and that the next attack will be situationlly appropriate. Specifically with a weapon, such as knife, failing in such a continuous attack can be fatal, if you plan to attack to the head and miss as he ducks/stabbes, your non-dynmaic sequence has failed.

I am not sure any empty hand kata was designed to counter weapons. If there is one, I haven't seen any bunkai to do that and I definitely don't teach it.

If you don't actually fight full contact in your sessions you don't know that you “can”. If you don't train against fighters of numerous systems and numerous weapons full contact, then you don't know if you “can” use such predetermined sequence.

That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of bunkai, and the TCMAs and Okinawan martial arts were not designed to be used against trained fighters. The fact that they can is a tribute to the masters who developed the different styles. And, of course, I don't believe empty hand kata was designed to be used against weapons.

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Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake.

The 'long' sequence is not going to eventuate. Either he blocks my elbow to his temple or he doesn't. Either he reacts to my eye gouge or he doesn't. In the application of bunkai you get the response you are seeking or he gets hit. If things go pear shaped, you reassess and re-enter the bunkai at the appropriate point.

Having burned in such long kata makes it more difficult to “reassess”, you don't have time to reasess the next step. If you blocks your elbow there are infinate variations of such block, and what the opponent does next, if he gets hit, all the more probable your next attack will land, but not gauranteed, my point stands.

No, your point doesn't make sense at all. If I am controlling one arm and hit him in the head with my other elbow, unless he is a mutant he only has one other arm to block with. He will lift that arm to protect his head. Whether it gets there in time is the question.

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But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

OMG! This is like bipolar! One minute I'm on a high and the next I'm depressed!

Lol, I think you missed the “should not be relied upon”, “CAN” be expected is not the same, as a gauranteed response!

Pedantics!

If you are being subjected to a dynamic chaotic attack that you cannot reverse then I doubt any of your training will be of value, bunkai or no bunkai. The use of bunkai supposes you survive the initial attack in whatever way you will. You then start your attack. In a sparring scenario you have no idea what will be coming next, but in a real fight at close quarters it is the fact that you can control an attacker's limb or whatever, that makes it work. At the Jundokan the statement was made, once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over.


I love the statement “once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over”, great basic principal! Part of that is “taking the center from the first motion”(their balance), and not giving it back. Moving in to control limbs is essential, getting off the line, taking their balance, and simultaneously attacking until they are disabled..all part of the goal.

The point is that the next move in your sequence exacly as practed may not be adequate to reverse the attack at any stage.

That doesn't matter! I didn't want to complicate things but in our previous discussion some months back I explained how you could move within a kata bunkai or into another kata bunkai.

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Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

Bunkai allows for infinite variation within the normal range of movement. Your last sentence starts fine. In fact I would say 'always' rather than 'often'. That is why you would never enter a fight with a certain course of action in our mind. You react, then respond. It is not pre-planned and it is not tit-for-tat. Your response is pre planned, only by virtue of your entry point into the kata. It is not pre planned before the attack.

Well there you go, so in that sense, Bunkai is not kata, and practices infinate variations, this is not how kata is performed, which was the subject of my article. I basically agree with the rest of your statement here, with the caveot that the entry point of the kata may not work exactly as practiced, it seems via your bunkai point you would agree.

Of course bunkai is not kata. Again, Kata is the kihon or 'Shu' form of learning. Bunkai is the application or 'Ha' form of learning. Kata is performed ONE way only, bunkai can be performed in an infinite number of ways. Your article is totally flawed because you are ignoring the application of the kata.

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The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.

Hooray! Gary, we're back on the same page. That is exactly what I am saying you should do! The difference is, I will use bunkai that is 'instinctive response' and you will use your 'instictive response' based on your training and experience. The fact that my training is kata based and your training is not doesn't make one of us better than the other, just different.

Great!! Different indeed, but would you agree mastering a few motions/drills/kata movements and drilling them until functional in such a variable and instinctive way is a faster route to combat viability? If so, then it follows that as one moves through the training a person who breaks it up more as I am advocating will also be at a much higher skill level combatively than someone who spents a lot of time on long sequences. After all, there is only so much time in the day!

How much someone trains is up to them. If they want to learn kata as a fighting system they will learn the bunkai. Whether they learn it in bits or whether they learn it as a whole will depend on their own level of understanding and the ability of their teacher to help them develop their bunkai. Nothing to do with faster or slower. If you want to learn to fight in a hurry learn boxing or Krav or Muay Thai.


Create Your Own short “Kata”


Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

​Please, don't create your own short kata. Select a short sequence from a kata you know very well and create your own short bunkai, then pressure test. Pressure test everything and if necessary get some other competent martial artist to critique it. Apart from the 'own kata' bit we are in total agreement.

Great! Call it Bunkai if you want, but your basicallyi advocating the same thing. The difference is that I am saying if you have to change from the Kata to the Bunkai to pressure test something effectively, then are wasting time doing the Kata, and being counter-productive.

I will spell it out again. Kata is kihon. It is the first step of learning the system. You can't pressure test kata. Once you know the kata you move to the next step which is the application of the kata, or bunkai. You can and must pressure test bunkai. Learning the kata is not a waste of time. Without the kata you do not have bunkai. If you don't use kata but choose to develop a response to a particular attack that is fine. That is what every system without kata does. What it doesn't do is help you if your bunkai goes pear shaped. That is what the kata does. What it doesn't give you is the angle of attack. That is what kata does.

Why not create your own? If a student understands how/why a method works, and wants vary those movements and mix them up, why not? I would'nt advocate a raw begginer do so, as I said it can have a place with such newbs to a degree. Such creativity helps a student instinctivly move and learn, so long as they pressure test it, and are supervised for basic mechanical / martial soundness I think it is very helpful.

You have fifty or more fighting systems that have been successfully used over centuries and pressure tested in life or death situations and you think you can do better! (The less effective kata died with their originators.) Well good luck, because without understanding the concepts of kihon kata and bunkai the Japanese method of learning it will be just a collection of techniques.

Great, an intermediate motion drill clip and a clip with some application ideas will be up in the next day or so. Perhaps you could share some Kata and Bunkai? Showing the relation betweeen the two?

Kata is all over the web, my bunkai isn't.

Unfortunately this response is getting to the league of War and Peace. I apologise to all who are trying to make sense of it but short of putting up 50 posts I don't know how else to handle it. If it takes you 15 minutes to read, please forgive me as it has taken me over four hours to write. Cheers!

 

[GaryR]

Wonderful post Jin Gang!

If the only objective for training is combat efficiency in the shortest amount of time, then I agree. Memorizing long forms, or using forms at all, are not necessary or efficient. Forms are a long term project. Knowing more of them and spending all your time memorizing new ones is not productive, that is agreed.

Exactly my point! My questions when interviewing a new student are 1) what are your primary goals in order of precedence? Self Defense? Health? Fun?, 2) How long do you want to study? Six Months? 60 Years?, 3) How much time per day/week do you want to train?, 4) Do you need combat viable methods for a particular reason now? (this is usually applicable to people in dangerous jobs, bouncers, LEO, etc.

Forms ARE a long term project. As you stated if the goal is combat efficiency in the shortest amount of time, then Kata is not the most optimal vehicle. The trick however is to maximize combat viability early on whilst not training in bad-habits and compromising long term depth of skill from developing. Kata should be taught in small doses, it sounds like the very few folks that use Bunkai as a vehicle to break Kata down are already basically doing what I am advocating.

But again, that is not something wrong with the forms themselves, just people's approach to forms. There is more to taijiquan (and many martial arts) than just fighting, and learning to fight in a short amount of time is certainly not something taijiquan is known for. People only have to stop and start to remember what they are doing in the initial learning phase.

I think this is a fair statement, but most here seem to agree that en mass most peoples approach are worthy of my critique. Taijiquan is certainly not know for this, when it was brought to this country by Chen Man Ching, it was a health dance, it wasn't broken down in the bunkai fashion, or the short flowing drills / application methods I use. Stop / Start--exactly as I said.

Once the memorization is complete, and after sufficient repetition, the form starts becoming muscle memory regardless of its length, and the flow begins. Yes, the longer the form the longer the learning process, but I see the benefit gained from spending that time to be worth it.

I can agree with this, but as stated before, the shorter drills practicing the concepts in a two man fashion are more efficient and effective at translating combat viable skill, both in the long term, and the short. The drills simply get more complex, more dynmaic, and impart more depth of skill as time goes on. Sure, I can agree in the health context for example the Taijiquan form can be worth learning. My article was addressing the kata as a vehicle for pure combat viability, and how it is not the most optimal method for doing so. I do / have taught the Taijiquan Long and short forms, it is however done in proportion to 1) the students goals, 2) their ability to move fluidly through the moves, and 3) it is not the focal point of the training. Trying to burn a long broken up form into muscle memory before the student is ready can be counter productive to the combat viability of the art--the gist of my article.

I also disagree that the long forms are not translateable [sic] to real combat. Like you said, if training progresses with the right priorities and in the right order, isolated techniques and partner drills are learned before and alongside the form, so you immediately know what the movements of the form are used for; the length of a form doesn't negate that.

I think was basically agree here. Long forms taught in big doses compromise and corrupt the students muscle memory with bad habits. Doing the forms broken up, in small doses, along side small sections of the Kata is what I am advocating if one uses Kata. After years and years of training, a long form does not negate that--but it's still not as helpful as doing "bunkai", motion drills, two man drills, reaction drills, etc.

So I get what you are doing, I just wouldn't do it myself. I relish in the long, patient path of self-discovery, some forms are good for this. To each his own, I guess. I think devoting some time to practicing the moving mantra or meditation of a long form is equally important as drilling combat applications of the techniques. This is built into the systems which tend to use forms like this, reaching back to their roots in health and longevity exercises practiced by monastics that were paired with fighting methods to create the ancestors of the styles we have now. So my argument is not necessarily with your logic, but there are divergent motivations for training

And there we have it. Well said, the article was about that divergent motivation, mine is mostly combat oriented, I believe for health there are many other better options to improve health / strength. My business partner is a football coach / weight trainer, this is his area of expertise. Moving mediation is important. But such meditation does not require one to attempt to memorize a form when doing so. There are simple methods, and free-flow methods just as effective. If the form can be done (which takes considerable time) as a moving meditation without thought, then great, but it's still not the most efficient method for combat viability--as we seem to agree.

If immediate and efficient teaching of combat/fighting skills are the goal then you don't want forms at all, really, at least not longer than a few techniques in combination, and you want to spend maximum amount of time building attributes and learning to apply a small number of techniques against resistance. Based on the way the martial arts of China and those descended from China are structured, I come to the conclusion that this is not the only goal for most of them.

Exactly my point. However, look at the five fists in Xingyi, they are short forms essentially, traditional, and very combat viable if worked well. LHBF as shorter animal forms, Bagua as well (palm changes, animal forms). Taijiquan, the least combat viable as a whole has the longest forms---go figure .

Again, thank you for the well thought out post.

Best,

Gary

 

[GaryR]

K-man,


Well, here is my reply the the reply of the reply of the reply in Green... I'll start with this;


“Unfortunately this response is getting to the league of War and Peace. I apologise to all who are trying to make sense of it but short of putting up 50 posts I don't know how else to handle it. If it takes you 15 minutes to read, please forgive me as it has taken me over four hours to write. Cheers! “


Yeah, a bit hard to follow; thank you for taking the time to respond, time is precious and I appreciate it.


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Great, we agree on some things! A small minority..we at least agree on that.

“I think it is sad commentary, but yes only a small number of karate schools train with reality based kata bunkai.”




Sad indeed. The same is true for my beloved Taijiquan. My article applies to that majority, and did not technically take into account Bunkai.


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If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced.

“Sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata. If sparring looks like a dance, it is a dance. “


Ones forms should impart skill that can translate to sparring, unfortunately, this is largely not the case. What do you think the purpose of sparring is?


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“Train like you fight and fight like you train. Sparring should be used as a tool that leads to proper combative application. Thus, if Kata doesn't represent sparring, all the worse. “

I repeat, sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata and sparring from a distance has nothing to do with bunkai.


Ok, so what is your view on the purpose of sparring? Only competition? Do you not have combat methods at a distance? I for one believe in closing in on an attacker to control their center / limbs, and I think kicking above the waist is foolish. But in sparring, like I said, It's a bridge, and any type of sparring should represent what you want to produce in real combat. Not a dance or a game, or a competition.

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Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal.

Memorising' long sequences is different to 'practising them until they bypass cognitive thought'. Memorising a kata for grading is useless as a means of self defence. It is just a test of memory.However, many of the guys training in the early days of karate only learned one or two kata in a lifetime.

Your highlighted quote is exactly what the article is trying to get across. That was the training of yesteryear, not the norm now. I think it better for a quicker turn-around to not have a student memorize long forms, and then sparse applications on the way. Most people these days don't have the patience to train that way, and most schools wouldnt stay in buisness if they did that.

Yesteryear was where this all came from. Training then wasn't commercial and my training now is not commercial either. If you are saying that commercialising martial arts is destroying the understanding of kata, I would agree, but that is a statement on where martial arts are today, not the usefulness of kata in RBSD.


Well,we can agree that the commercialization is destroying understaning, hence my initial paint of looking through a window and people lined up in fancy uniforms doing long forms. The usefulness of Kata is limited in the RBSD context. Practicing a lesser quantity (shorter snippets as I said) over quantity, and drilling them in a dynmaic fashion that does not neccesarily represent the exact moves in the kata or sequence is more useful in most cases.

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Then again, I have Erle Montaigue's book, "Dim-Mak's 12 Most Deadly Katas", and those kata are only a few moves. But they are moves in sequence.

Yup, good book, and good video as well. Only a few moves is exactly what I was talking about your own short kata, not the traidional long kata. I believe Erle created those for that exact purpose.

Erle did NOT create the kata. They are traditional Bagua or Dim Mak kata.


Well, perhaps, but I believe there is quite a bit of controversy around this, I am not sure of any other secondary historical verification of such forms. That being said, as I am a certified instructor under Erle, to me, it doesn't matter whether Erle created them, or was the only person in the world to learn such forms—they are valuable, and I judge material based on merit, not lineage.
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It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion.

Sorry, this does not mean anything to me.
I'm sorry about that, perhaps there is some literature you can find on the topic.

What I am saying is the sentence is a nonsense! Literature will not help me understand it.


Actually, it is far from nonsense, it is neruoscience, I consulted several PHD's on the subject as well as peer reviewed literate. Again, educating yourself on “muscle” memory and how the neurophysiology works behind this stuff is extremely valuable, and give insight on how and why certain training methods work better than others.

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While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

This brings us to our fundamental difference. We train kata, as bunkai, in a close combat setting every session. It may be in small segments but it is always in sequence and it always follows the kata. It is practised in such a way that should the technique fail, the next move in the kata gives you back the momentum.


I agree, this is a fundamental difference, we may not be so far off as we think. Training small segments is how I advocated training kata if you do. And along side that Kata training is application / combative concept training. We seem to agree that most schools do not do bunkai, but only Kata.


I think where are key disagreement likes is that I do not agree the next move in the Kata will necessarily be the best move in a real situation. A real situation is chaotic, ever changing, and somewhat unpredictable. I am certain if you showed me your kata, I could demonstrate in a friendly way of course how your next move in the sequence could fail you as well. This is not applicable to your system only, it applies to all martial arts. You do admit my article does apply to most schools—they do not do bunkai....sad.

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Would you agree that a majority of schools do not do this? (I think you stated this above). Small segments is exactly what I meant when I said “break it up”. Always doing it in sequence is shorting yourself on combative training, Ill bet that your sequence will not work everytime, to every attackers sequence. Especially if your move doesnt pan out as planned, it is very likely the next move in the Kata will not cut it.

Yes, I would agree that the majority of schools do not do this, but that is the problem of the teaching, not the kata. Using the bunkai as I have described in close combat will work every time. However, if the attacker manages to block the blow, or resist the technique, the next move in the kata will, most times, keep you with the momentum. If not you just have to start again.


I think it is what's wrong with Kata, it is a main focus of most schools. You keep moving to the Bunkai argument, which is not exactly Kata as I described in my critique. But we disagree that “the next move in the kata will … work every time” This time you added the caveot “most times”, thus not all the time. I would say that that caveat is a very method specific statement, and it demonstrates my point that the next move in the sequence should not be counted on, and thus it should be changed up in dynamic drill that do not rely on the Kata sequence. Tactile sensitivity, and training in such dynamic fashion is necessary. Moreover, starting again as you stated may not be the most optimal move in that specific situation. Perhaps another move in another Kata would be more applicable. There are some very good near “catch all” methods / templates, but they are certainly not found in the majority of the moves in a kata sequence.

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The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns.

I really can't understand what you are saying. What is "the concept on which the technique turns"?

This is a very fact dependant statement and context. The concept could be—intercepting/blending on a horizontal plane whilst driving through your targed, with a certain flavor even. Clear as Mudd?

No. This is not plain English. It makes no sense at all.


Ok, this is more easily demonstrated than explicated. It is plain English, it is just broad. As I said this is very fact specific. But, let me attempt to clear it up. Hand to hand combat can be likened to a collision of geometric shapes, as I said when explaining what I call the “combat sphere principal” on another forum.


I'll try to give an example---Picture a circle on a horizontal plane, the equator around the globe for example. Now picture this circle as a route of attack and defense. A technique may rely on this route to accomplish a specific goal in a certain way. So lets say on that circle, it is used to intercept, blend, and re-direct an attack, the arms are both moving clockwise on that route, when the right hand is just past the 12 o'clock position (just off the line of attack-as your right intercepts their right), the concept of “cai” can be applied from taijiquan, (Cai is one of the eight powers, described as “pluck”). As that Cai is done the circle is broken as the pluck takes the opponents center (by snatching the arm) and moves inward on more of a straight line towards you. As this is done the concept of Zuan from Xingyi (drilling) is applied. After such drilling shot the waist turns back to the right the movement returns to the horizontal plane—going counter clockwise on that equator. (the left knife side of left palm can strike). The right hand, can also continue on this path and do a number of applications. This is a sort of “plane” switching, and changing of the geometric shapes / paths of your movement. In this example I inserted some basic principles from Tai Chi and Xingyi, but they can be swapped out with many other things, and countless applications can be produced by this one principal. ( I can demonstrate this exact example via video at some point if you like).

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This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place.

If what you are saying is right, it seems a total waste of time teaching kata at all, and in fact I know a number of schools that have removed kata from their syllabus.

Yes, in the self-defense context, it can be a total waste—but as I said before, breaking it up and mixing it up in small segments drilled and applied over and over can be usefull, and can be included.

This is an oxymoron. Learning the kata is useless but learning the kata in small bits is useful?


The kata as taught by most schools that do not break it up, break it down, and change it up, are more useless in the combative context.






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Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Once again, you are describing exactly what we do every training session.

Do you do adrenal stress training—how many times do you have a complete adrenal dump while practing in your training sessions? I am talking real-world, full contact, much different than a very controled clinical situation, which the vast majority of schools that do teach applications use. Again using the exact sequence necessarily makes a lot of assumptions about a real conflict. I bet in one session I can demonstrate how many of your sequences will fail you –I've done so to dozens of instructors.

Full contact yes, with appropriate equipment. Adrenal Stress training? Not as a real life or death situation. I don't believe that is easily reproducible, even with equipment like "red man".

Saying that you can demonstrate that sequences of techniques will fail is just wind. Am I able to use the potentially lethal and destructive techniques on you on the off chance you might stop them? I doubt it, and I doubt my insurance would cover it. However, if you are every in Australia, you are welcome to train with us.


Anything one types on this forum can be considered just wind, lol. Adreanl stress training can be done with the proper equipment, and the proper scario structures. I agree, it is not easy. Your insurance likely doesn't cover it. I think my point of stopping your sequence of techniques can be done without injury, I have done it before. Where are you in Oz? I love the country, spent a summer in Sydney studying international Energy law, and some Australian law. Traveled up and down the gold coast.
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Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement.

Learning the kata is just the first step. Worrying about how a move looks, or how perfect you are performing it, smacks of competition or grading, not reality. Getting to the stage that the next step in the kata flows naturally is the whole aim of performing the kata over and over. Achieving the relaxation and fluidity you describe is what the objective should be. That is why it takes so long to achieve. That is why it is so much easier to learn Boxing or Muay Thai.

Yup, it does smack of grading, which was my first point. Many students focus on that grade. It does take a long time to achieve the above with a long kata, exactly my point. Such things can be better accomoplished, and at a much faster rate doing short motion drills/fewer moves strung together.


What do you suppose the percentage of Black Belts are that can beat a boxer in a real fight? I don't think its very good for the foregoing reasons.




Are you really serious? A boxer fighting without rules or as a boxer? A Black Belt karateka able to utilise all his techniques?
Same height and weight? Too many variables but the odds favour the karateka. But what has that to do with kata. You have already stated that very few schools teach kata as RBSD. The BB is just an average BB.


Well, I think saying most blackbelts can utilize all their techniques is a huge stretch of the imagination. It has to do with Kata as it a training mechanism for Karateka that is not present in boxing. I'd put my money on a boxer any-day over your average Karateka....

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Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death.

Are you now saying that you can use kata but .. ? If so we have changed direction but let's look at it. Continuous movement is certainly desirable, and yes a certain attack may not always be effective. I purposefully left defence out of the previous sentence because by its very nature, defence cannot be within a kata or it would require an attack at a particular point. Defence can only occur in the opening move.

I said--''By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory”. The longer the kata/sequence the more difficult to achieve such continuous movement.


I think your defense point is a semantical argument. If in the middle of an altercation the person throws another punch, kick, knee, elbow, et al, you will be neutralizing that attack somehow, and that contitutes a “defense”.

If you are using the bunkai as a fighting system, it is unlikely another punch etc will be thrown, but assuming for some reason it is, it doesn't matter. There are two scenarios. First the possibility of a strike is factored in or you stuff up and have to start over. But the specific act of blocking an attack is not in the kata and may or may not be inherent in the bunkai.


I think there is a possibility of more than two scenarios. Above I addressed the fallacy of “starting over” in your kata. Saying the specific act of blocking is not in a kata I think is false, there are thousands of versions of Kata—some do have such a specific act.

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Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

No! No! No! Not another article. This article! This is what it is all about. In bunkai your very move creates the possibility of a predetermined response. Either they block or protect as you know they will or you knock their head off. What you have stated is what bunkai is all about. Mate, call it what you like. "Counter Offensive Tactics" is fine by me.

Lol, ok. I did not mention Bunkai in the article. I do agree that sometimes your very move creates the possibility of a pretermined response, but such response cannot be counted on, just as the next move in your kata sequence cannot be counted on. There is more that goes into my term...but again, another long explaination.

The response can be counted on in as much as he protects or he gets hit. Iain Abernethy has some great material out demonstrating just what we are discussing.


Do you have a specific link in mind I can view?

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Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy.

Sorry Gary, where back on opposite sides. Kata ha no 'tit-for-tat'. Two step and three step stuff was constructed as sparring drill for tournament fighting. Nothing to do with reality. Almost all of that I have come across is done from 'sparring distance' and has as much in common with RBSD as a pelican has to a pumpkin.

Ha, love the pelican analogy. Again, a sparring drill should be a bridge to reality, unfortunately in most cases it is not. But that has lead to most schools using and teaching kata in such a fashion. I'm betting if you demonstrated your kata I could point out some examples...maybe, maybe your version is very unique.

My kata would not inspire you. My knees are too old to get too low. There are hundreds of thousands of martial artists who could perform better technical kata than me. But, again, the kata is kihon, basics, the Shu form.

The bunkai, as we train it, does not rely on a specific attack and I do not teach specific counters to any form of attack, even more importantly when weapons are involved. So we do not have counters either, although in a way you could say that perhaps our first attack is a counter in the strictest sense. We have a sequence of specific attacks that continue until the attacker is disabled, one move or five.The fact that we can do this very training session demonstrates that it is not 'reckless fallacy'. It is what you train. I have no problem that you don't train it, but keep an open mind to what is possible, even if you haven't seen it first hand.

Great, but a kata DOES offer a specific move, and thus a counter. Thus your bunkai seems to differ from your kata movement, which is another topic, and demonstrates the point of my article.

Kata offers a specific move but the bunkai might give you six or more applications. I search youtube before for an example of Gedan Barai and it took forever to find someone performing it the way we were taught. If you are interested we could perhaps discuss that in a different thread.

That would be great. The six or more applications is not in the single Kata movement itself I'm betting, hence my critique of the long sequence does not apply to this.

I definitely agree that attacking until someone is disabled is the way to go, but again that predetermined sequence is assuming your attacks may not be foiled, and that the next attack will be situationlly appropriate. Specifically with a weapon, such as knife, failing in such a continuous attack can be fatal, if you plan to attack to the head and miss as he ducks/stabbes, your non-dynmaic sequence has failed.

I am not sure any empty hand kata was designed to counter weapons. If there is one, I haven't seen any bunkai to do that and I definitely don't teach it.


Well, weapon to hand attacks are reality. If such attacks are not prepared for by your training, you should seek out some additional material. I would not be alive if my empty hand skills were not effective against a knife attack. A few LEO's and bouncers would also not be alive as well if my teaching/training did not include such items.

If you don't actually fight full contact in your sessions you don't know that you “can”. If you don't train against fighters of numerous systems and numerous weapons full contact, then you don't know if you “can” use such predetermined sequence.

That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of bunkai, and the TCMAs and Okinawan martial arts were not designed to be used against trained fighters. The fact that they can is a tribute to the masters who developed the different styles. And, of course, I don't believe empty hand kata was designed to be used against weapons.


Sure the probability of running into a trained fighter is less than your average Joe, but If your methods cannot be used against trained fighters or weapons, it is inadequate, period. There are people of bad character which are well trained and tend to seek out conflict to prove themselves. In the Afghanistan war, a Tech Sergeant who was a blackbelt, was sent home after he came to my combatives class and attempted to prove himself, you would think in a war zone we would all be on the same side regardless!




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Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake.

The 'long' sequence is not going to eventuate. Either he blocks my elbow to his temple or he doesn't. Either he reacts to my eye gouge or he doesn't. In the application of bunkai you get the response you are seeking or he gets hit. If things go pear shaped, you reassess and re-enter the bunkai at the appropriate point.

Having burned in such long kata makes it more difficult to “reassess”, you don't have time to reasess the next step. If you blocks your elbow there are infinate variations of such block, and what the opponent does next, if he gets hit, all the more probable your next attack will land, but not gauranteed, my point stands.

No, your point doesn't make sense at all. If I am controlling one arm and hit him in the head with my other elbow, unless he is a mutant he only has one other arm to block with. He will lift that arm to protect his head. Whether it gets there in time is the question.


You are assuming you will remain in control of his arm, and keep his center, he may have knees, I don't think it's safe to assume a certain sequence of kata will prevail. There are high percentage techniques and lower ones for sure in any system, and in the chaos of attack the less assumptions one makes the better, and better one is prepared for contingencies the better. I do like controlling the arm and the old elbow to the head...

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But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

OMG! This is like bipolar! One minute I'm on a high and the next I'm depressed!

Lol, I think you missed the “should not be relied upon”, “CAN” be expected is not the same, as a gauranteed response!

Pedantics!


Why thank you, pedantics can be defined as an “excessive display of learning”

If you are being subjected to a dynamic chaotic attack that you cannot reverse then I doubt any of your training will be of value, bunkai or no bunkai. The use of bunkai supposes you survive the initial attack in whatever way you will. You then start your attack. In a sparring scenario you have no idea what will be coming next, but in a real fight at close quarters it is the fact that you can control an attacker's limb or whatever, that makes it work. At the Jundokan the statement was made, once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over.


Well if you cannot reverse it then obviously your training has been of little value. Circular statement. Controlling ones limbs and center surely ups the chance your methods will work as planned. You are preaching to the choir re not disengaging and controlling.

I love the statement “once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over”, great basic principal! Part of that is “taking the center from the first motion”(their balance), and not giving it back. Moving in to control limbs is essential, getting off the line, taking their balance, and simultaneously attacking until they are disabled..all part of the goal.

The point is that the next move in your sequence exacly as practed may not be adequate to reverse the attack at any stage.

That doesn't matter! I didn't want to complicate things but in our previous discussion some months back I explained how you could move within a kata bunkai or into another kata bunkai.


Ok, well then you are negating your entire argument, if you are moving into “another kata bunaki”,then if follows that your sequence of that particular kata has failed, which is my point....break it up, mix it up, and do so in chunks that allow you to practice in such a dynamic way.

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Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

Bunkai allows for infinite variation within the normal range of movement. Your last sentence starts fine. In fact I would say 'always' rather than 'often'. That is why you would never enter a fight with a certain course of action in our mind. You react, then respond. It is not pre-planned and it is not tit-for-tat. Your response is pre planned, only by virtue of your entry point into the kata. It is not pre planned before the attack.


Sure, but the practice of bunkai is not lining up and doing Kata as my article is addressing.

Well there you go, so in that sense, Bunkai is not kata, and practices infinate variations, this is not how kata is performed, which was the subject of my article. I basically agree with the rest of your statement here, with the caveot that the entry point of the kata may not work exactly as practiced, it seems via your bunkai point you would agree.

Of course bunkai is not kata. Again, Kata is the kihon or 'Shu' form of learning. Bunkai is the application or 'Ha' form of learning. Kata is performed ONE way only, bunkai can be performed in an infinite number of ways. Your article is totally flawed because you are ignoring the application of the kata.


My article is addressing Kata as practiced by the majority. It is advocating nearly the very thing you seem to be advocating in bunkai—performing in small chunks with pressure in infinite variations. The application of Kata is not being ignored, it's method as a vehicle of teaching that application is—and it is not lining up and learning long forms thinking it will teach you to fight. Doing so can be counterproductive to combat viability based on bad muscle memory training, a lack of fluidity, transitions, and variations on movement's.

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The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.

Hooray! Gary, we're back on the same page. That is exactly what I am saying you should do! The difference is, I will use bunkai that is 'instinctive response' and you will use your 'instictive response' based on your training and experience. The fact that my training is kata based and your training is not doesn't make one of us better than the other, just different.

Great!! Different indeed, but would you agree mastering a few motions/drills/kata movements and drilling them until functional in such a variable and instinctive way is a faster route to combat viability? If so, then it follows that as one moves through the training a person who breaks it up more as I am advocating will also be at a much higher skill level combatively than someone who spents a lot of time on long sequences. After all, there is only so much time in the day!

How much someone trains is up to them. If they want to learn kata as a fighting system they will learn the bunkai. Whether they learn it in bits or whether they learn it as a whole will depend on their own level of understanding and the ability of their teacher to help them develop their bunkai. Nothing to do with faster or slower. If you want to learn to fight in a hurry learn boxing or Krav or Muay Thai.


Yup, it does depend on understanding and level of the teacher and student. I can teach a student how to apply an internal art concept / method nearly as fast as a Krav or Muay Thai guy. In fact I have taught a student to use such a “take home today” method successfully against more experienced Krav and Muay Thais guys, if you do not possess the skill and material to do so, that is your pitfall, but not reality. The key is not screwing the student up for future depth while doing so.


Create Your Own short “Kata”


Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

​Please, don't create your own short kata. Select a short sequence from a kata you know very well and create your own short bunkai, then pressure test. Pressure test everything and if necessary get some other competent martial artist to critique it. Apart from the 'own kata' bit we are in total agreement.

Great! Call it Bunkai if you want, but your basicallyi advocating the same thing. The difference is that I am saying if you have to change from the Kata to the Bunkai to pressure test something effectively, then are wasting time doing the Kata, and being counter-productive.

I will spell it out again. Kata is kihon. It is the first step of learning the system. You can't pressure test kata. Once you know the kata you move to the next step which is the application of the kata, or bunkai. You can and must pressure test bunkai. Learning the kata is not a waste of time. Without the kata you do not have bunkai. If you don't use kata but choose to develop a response to a particular attack that is fine. That is what every system without kata does. What it doesn't do is help you if your bunkai goes pear shaped. That is what the kata does. What it doesn't give you is the angle of attack. That is what kata does.


What part of the definition of Kihon do you use---seems like a somewhat broad term—http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kihon . Pressure testing kata is what I mean by learning / using the application of the Kata. You seem to be using the term Bunkai and Kata interchangabily at some points, but different in others? So are you saying Bunkai does not give you the angle of attack? If Bunkai is the application of Kata I think it would follow that it would give you such angles? If you change angles, perhaps you are changing to another application from another kata? Hence my point. Training to develop a response to a particular attack is fine, one can do many non-kata training methods/drills that help you learn to change angles on the fly if something goes pear shaped. San-sau from bagua is one such drill, si ping tui shou (four planes push hands) from Tai Chi is another such drill.





Why not create your own? If a student understands how/why a method works, and wants vary those movements and mix them up, why not? I would'nt advocate a raw begginer do so, as I said it can have a place with such newbs to a degree. Such creativity helps a student instinctivly move and learn, so long as they pressure test it, and are supervised for basic mechanical / martial soundness I think it is very helpful.

You have fifty or more fighting systems that have been successfully used over centuries and pressure tested in life or death situations and you think you can do better! (The less effective kata died with their originators.) Well good luck, because without understanding the concepts of kihon kata and bunkai the Japanese method of learning it will be just a collection of techniques.


A collection of techniques is what I specifically avoid. Understanding the concepts is key. I think you are using sort of a historian's fallacy here. Knowledge is aggragate. The masters of the past were ignorant to neuroscience and the most optimal fitness training methods, etc. comparitevly. It's just a product of science and our knowledge moving forward exponentially. Many of the past Masters and systems stayed in their own secret boxes, and did not help each other grow. Moreover, master/senior worship, and the inclination to not evolve things by many did not help. Yes, in many cases I can do better. Any lineage head can try me on this.That being said we can learn a lot from those fighting systems, a whole lot. Concept and training method is key. Mimicking long kata's without “bunkai” or short malable fluid two person pressure testing and tactile senstivity drills are also key.

Great, an intermediate motion drill clip and a clip with some application ideas will be up in the next day or so. Perhaps you could share some Kata and Bunkai? Showing the relation betweeen the two?

Kata is all over the web, my bunkai isn't.


Hence, my critique on Kata at large is applicable! Why don't you put some video of your Bunaki up? Sharing is caring! Otherwise as you said, most of this is “wind”.


Unfortunately this response is getting to the league of War and Peace. I apologise to all who are trying to make sense of it but short of putting up 50 posts I don't know how else to handle it. If it takes you 15 minutes to read, please forgive me as it has taken me over four hours to write. Cheers!


War and Peach, lol. Again, agree to disagree, thank you for the thoughful response. Great discussion, I really hope you choose to put up a video of your Bunkai so we can talk more specifically. Hell, most cell phones these days have video capability...surely you can have a student hold one up while you demonstrate?


Best,


G

 

[Cyriacus]

You two are having a righteously good conversation, so ill only pop in quickly:

To Gary;

"Sad indeed. The same is true for my beloved Taijiquan. My article applies to that majority, and did not technically take into account Bunkai. "

Im glad you acknowledge this

"Ones forms should impart skill that can translate to sparring, unfortunately, this is largely not the case. What do you think the purpose of sparring is? ""

Depends on the format. Most of the time it depends on the system. Boxing, for example, is expressed through sparring. So is Judo (though it isnt called sparring). But that doesnt work so good if the system makes it easier or better to practice in other ways. Usually, medium range work and general grappling translate well into sparring, or rolling, or randori, or whathaveyou. Other systems work better on drills, like Wing Chun. If they do incorporate sparring in the common sense its not often (as far as i know) as much of a focus.

"Ok, so what is your view on the purpose of sparring? Only competition? Do you not have combat methods at a distance? I for one believe in closing in on an attacker to control their center / limbs, and I think kicking above the waist is foolish. But in sparring, like I said, It's a bridge, and any type of sparring should represent what you want to produce in real combat. Not a dance or a game, or a competition. "

Of course medium range work is important. But most Bunkai are for close range work. Forms arent interpreted as well when you try to make a round peg (close range work) fit a square hole (medium range work).

 

[GaryR]

Ok Folks,

So I have uploaded one of the Flowing Motion Drills, both a brief description on how to do the solo practice, and a separate clip on a handful of applications. A private student came to the house and let me film it, I had the camera hooked up to computer for ease of upload, so it's in a smaller space, but you get the idea. The up coming DVD will be filmed at the gym with pads, mattes, etc. Also a caveat, I'm a bit tense - I was recently in a really bad car accident, a deer ran in front of my SUV on a back iced/snowy road, it rolled, crushed the roof--concussion, and bulging disc later-I'm still alive, but in recovery.

Watch them in order, and perhaps you can figure out apps similar to your own systems from watching the movement itself.

Keep in mind this is a template for many apps, includes concepts not explicated, there are countless app variations.

Best,

Gary


Solo Drill briefly taught

Handful of possible applications

 

[Cyriacus]

A few general points from your application video (You botched the link, by the way. You may have fixed that by the time i post my reply though):

1; Youre practicing from too far away. I dont know if you were just doing that for the sake of the video, but he couldnt hit you let alone hurt you. If he throws a quick jab from that range, you can decide how youre going to walk all over him for being someone whos highly trained in the art of missing.
2; Your block in your first application looks like a more flowy relaxed version of the outer block im used to. You seem to be trying to close him up, where i try to open people up or get to an offset through my own movement rather than theirs. Not too bad.
3; So, you made a drill about doing an upward wrist strike, as oppose to the countless other things you could do which would permit more and better followups?
4; Youre practicing statically. Fights (i presume this is for fighting) are dynamic, moving affairs. This might not be so easy when the other person is moving (Ok, it wouldnt be easy at all).
5; He isnt resisting. If he threw those two punches, and you blocked them thusly, he should be in the process of throwing a third punch, or grabbing onto you, all the while moving forward and trying to drive you back. The elbow and head manipulation you tried would be a good way of getting hooked over your left shoulder whilst your left arm is busy trying to do technical stuff.

To be clear, i actually agree with the block. Im questioning the followup. Certain things work at certain ranges. Most Bunkai are done from a range where you can touch them with the tip of your elbow without leaning in or reaching - Just raising your arm up, bent 90 degrees. Youre working from medium range, where leverage isnt as effective.

6; The second block seems a bit far fetched. Considering that you need to identify the attack, choose your defense, unfreeze, and react, i doubt youd have time to reach across your body and do anything.
7; Strikes dont flow - At least not like in app 2. You cant block a punch then strike in with an elbow. That works in theory, but in practice, if the other guy seriously took the time to care, and didnt just thwack you with his left hand, since he can throw successive punches, you wouldnt have even seen the second punch coming. Youve moved in with your only means of defense on that side at that range indisposed trying to hit him with a not-very-forceful elbow. It certainly wont work in as a takedown.

The second one, i dont agree with at all, honestly.
To the third:

8; You actually demonstrated a more proper haymaker than most people do. I tip my hat!
9; Same problem. You indispose your free hand, leaving your head way exposed to a successive punch. If someone charged at you wildly swinging haymakers (baring in mind that the average person can swing about three to five of them a second), so far this defence would get you smacked in the back side of your skull whilst youre busy expecting him to care about your counterattack.
10; He isnt resisting, again. If he was swinging his body to his right, and youre trying to turn him to his left, at best youll reduce the power of the strike thats about to hit you in the head. But then, what about the next one?




I shant continue. Instead im going to lend a suggestion, instead of just picking out flaws.
Application 3; Block the same way, grab his shoulder, step in, swing your rear elbow into his head. Then follow up.
No offense, but if this is your alternative to Kata, and their inherent Bunkai, i may need to make a mental note to never go anywere near whatever it is youve learnt

 

[Jin Gang]

Wonderful post Jin Gang!



Exactly my point! My questions when interviewing a new student are 1) what are your primary goals in order of precedence? Self Defense? Health? Fun?, 2) How long do you want to study? Six Months? 60 Years?, 3) How much time per day/week do you want to train?, 4) Do you need combat viable methods for a particular reason now? (this is usually applicable to people in dangerous jobs, bouncers, LEO, etc.

Forms ARE a long term project. As you stated if the goal is combat efficiency in the shortest amount of time, then Kata is not the most optimal vehicle. The trick however is to maximize combat viability early on whilst not training in bad-habits and compromising long term depth of skill from developing. Kata should be taught in small doses, it sounds like the very few folks that use Bunkai as a vehicle to break Kata down are already basically doing what I am advocating.



I think this is a fair statement, but most here seem to agree that en mass most peoples approach are worthy of my critique. Taijiquan is certainly not know for this, when it was brought to this country by Chen Man Ching, it was a health dance, it wasn't broken down in the bunkai fashion, or the short flowing drills / application methods I use. Stop / Start--exactly as I said.



I can agree with this, but as stated before, the shorter drills practicing the concepts in a two man fashion are more efficient and effective at translating combat viable skill, both in the long term, and the short. The drills simply get more complex, more dynmaic, and impart more depth of skill as time goes on. Sure, I can agree in the health context for example the Taijiquan form can be worth learning. My article was addressing the kata as a vehicle for pure combat viability, and how it is not the most optimal method for doing so. I do / have taught the Taijiquan Long and short forms, it is however done in proportion to 1) the students goals, 2) their ability to move fluidly through the moves, and 3) it is not the focal point of the training. Trying to burn a long broken up form into muscle memory before the student is ready can be counter productive to the combat viability of the art--the gist of my article.



I think was basically agree here. Long forms taught in big doses compromise and corrupt the students muscle memory with bad habits. Doing the forms broken up, in small doses, along side small sections of the Kata is what I am advocating if one uses Kata. After years and years of training, a long form does not negate that--but it's still not as helpful as doing "bunkai", motion drills, two man drills, reaction drills, etc.




And there we have it. Well said, the article was about that divergent motivation, mine is mostly combat oriented, I believe for health there are many other better options to improve health / strength. My business partner is a football coach / weight trainer, this is his area of expertise. Moving mediation is important. But such meditation does not require one to attempt to memorize a form when doing so. There are simple methods, and free-flow methods just as effective. If the form can be done (which takes considerable time) as a moving meditation without thought, then great, but it's still not the most efficient method for combat viability--as we seem to agree.




Exactly my point. However, look at the five fists in Xingyi, they are short forms essentially, traditional, and very combat viable if worked well. LHBF as shorter animal forms, Bagua as well (palm changes, animal forms). Taijiquan, the least combat viable as a whole has the longest forms---go figure .

Again, thank you for the well thought out post.

Best,

Gary

I have the impression that what you are describing, teaching a form in small sections, is a completely traditional approach. A style which has long forms would traditionally teach the form little at a time, drilling the movements and working with partners as we talked about. Over a period of time, the entire form is known. Then you can perform the entire long form, without any bad habits, with correct flow and connectivity. You don't just teach the student something without a foundation.

From my perspective, nothing about the Chinese arts, in general, has anything to do with "efficiency". That seems to be a preoccupation of the rational/left side brain. Certainly there were people who wanted and needed to know how to fight quickly, and those skills are included in the arts and can be addressed with the methods you have mentioned. But there is a lot more there which has more to do with wholeness. Instead of breaking down our existence into a series of refined and efficient exercises meant to accomplish different tasks, the tone of martial arts like taijiquan is to encompass all of one's physical, mental, and spiritual needs into a single practice. In the long term, this may be the most "efficient"...allowing focus on one form, one practice or series of closely interrelated practices that address many needs vs separating our life into different categories and learning different exercises for each part, thereby reenforcing the separateness.

So there are really two issues here. One is that a majority of commercial schools misuse forms for ranks and don't teach applications in a realistic or useful way. That is a gripe which many have had for a long time now, and there are people out there trying to rectify it just as you are.
The other issue is why do these martial arts systems have forms at all, when spending time memorizing sequences are not important for combat ability? The answer to that, I believe, is that combat ability is not the only concern of these arts. Many of them are, or have the potential to be, holistic practices for lifelong study. Ultimately, why choose an art like taijiquan over some other art, or meditation practice? Why not? If efficiency and practicality are the rule by which we judge everything, then I think we would never choose these types of martial arts at all. Nothing is "wrong", it just depends on what you want.

As a side note, regarding asking students what their priorities are, I find most new students don't really know what they want, nor do they really have any idea what you can give them. They have some vague ideas about what martial arts are, from movies, etc. It is up to the teacher to show them a path, and help them follow it. As they progress, students will discover what it is they want. Sometimes that means they need to find another teacher. Not every teacher can give every student what they want and need, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as the teacher has integrity and is willing to let go.

 

[jks9199]

Moderator Note:

Link in GaryR's post has been corrected.

jks9199
Asst. Adminstrator

 

[K-man]

Gary, you asked about kihon and then provided a reference from Wiki.

Kihon (基本, きほん?) is a Japanese term meaning "basics" or "fundamentals." The term is used to refer to the basic techniques that are taught and practiced as the foundation of most Japanese martial arts.
The practice and mastery of kihon is essential to all advanced training, and includes the practice of correct body form and breathing, while practicing basics such as stances, punches, kicks, blocks, and thrusts, but it also includes basic representative kata.
Kihon is not only practicing of techniques, it is also the karateka fostering the correct spirit and attitude at all times.
Kihon techniques tend to be practiced often, in many cases during each practice session. They are considered fundamental to mastery and improvement of all movements of greater complexity. Kihon in martial arts can be seen as analogous to basic skills in, for example, basketball. Professional NBA players continue to practice dribbling, passing, free throws, jump shots, etc. in an effort to maintain and perfect the more complex skills used during a basketball game.


In Karate
Styles of karate differ greatly in the emphasis placed on kihon. Kihon may be practiced as "floor exercises", where the same technique or combination is repeated multiple times as the students move back and forth across the floor. Japanese kihon training is notorious for extended periods of kihon training. This style of practice is believed to ingrain the techniques into the muscle memory of the karateka.
Some styles employ "kihon kata" in teaching beginners. Additionally, kihon may take the form of prearranged partner drills whereby two students face each other and alternate execution of a technique. This approach combines repetition with training in distancing. Targets for punching and kicking, such as bags, shields, or dummies, are generally used at more advanced stages of kihon training to strengthen muscles, bones, and skin. Examples of traditional striking targets include makiwara, among many others.
Some styles have a small set of basic techniques that are practiced consistently every single class. Others might have scores of techniques that are each only practiced every couple of months.

What part of kihon don't you understand? It is 90% to 95% of what you will see in most Karate dojos the world over. Kata as you see it performed in class and in competition is kihon kata. At the top level, it is kihon kata performed very well. It is not in a form suitable for combat. Kihon kata is the first step in learning kata. The fact that many karateka do not progress beyond basic kata is not the fault of the kata. By writing the article you did you have promoted your ignorance of kata and the Japanese method of learning, ShuHaRi. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Gary, I have watched your videos and was pleasantly surprised. The type of movement you are showing is very similar to what we do in out 'soft hands' practice. Your drill has a few extra flourishes but all in all, the concepts are the same. Well done!

That said, what you have posted is nothing to do with the value of kata. I am abandoning the previous edition of
'War and Peace' because it is just too hard for others to follow. I think where your hypothesis is wrong is that you are thinking Okinawan Kata and its Chinese equivalent which is much softer and fluid, are meant to be used, as they are performed. That is just not the case. If it were, I would agree with you. Get rid of kata, it is a waste of time! Unfortunately you have many friends who also cannot see kata beyond the lines of students parading up and down that you described in your first post. Fifteen or twenty years ago I might have even been arguing your side.

But, over the last 15 to 20 years an amazing amount of information regarding kata has been researched and presented by people like Patrick McCarthy, Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson, George Dillman, Kris Wilder, Michael Clark etc etc. if you choose to ignore the material available, of course you won't understand kata. Kata is not part of your system so to put out information that is not correct does your credibility no good at all. Give it a miss. Dissing kata is dissing all the styles of martial arts that practise kata. :asian:

 

[Mauthos]

Coming from a point of view as someone who never liked kata, I am afraid I cannot agree that there is necessarily anything wrong with kata in any way shape or form.

I struggled with kata, never saw the point, thought it was a waste of time, a string of convoluted linked moves put into a form for no rhyme or reason.

Therefore, I left shotakan and took up kick boxing.

However, this was over 25 years ago and now, with a great deal of experience, I have come to discover that I had just been taught badly by someone who themselves did not seem to understand or see the point of kata.

After 2 years of kick boxing, I also took up Tang Soo Do, mainly because I was interested in the history of a more traditional art. Yes, I still struggled to learn kata (it is still to this day the weakest aspect of my martial arts) but most importantly this instructor actively explained the stances, the point for a particular attack, specific block and why we were moving the way we did. In essence he was teaching the application of kata - bunkai.

It took me many years and although kata is still not a favorite aspect of any martial art to me, I fully appreciate and understand the importance of it across a multitude of styles.

It is just that, in my opinion, kata should be taught with its application, bunkai. To me, it is as important as the kata itself and without it or with an instructor who simply teaches you to copy his form, kata without true understanding will always be perceived as pointless when in all honesty in is the base of many a martial art. Kata explains the way we move, counter, stand, defend, attack from the most basic platform, to the most complex, it is definitely a useful and helpful tool used to fully round out a martial artists true ability.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Thank you, respect to you as well, no worries about being blunt. Debate the ideas, don't attack the person, good motto to live by!

Yes, actually what I have written IS based on scientific study. I have consulted PHD's in neurophysiology, experts in kinesiology, etc., as well as scientific literature.

This is great to know and sorry I assumed otherwise. I do look forward to talking with you in depth about these and other concepts you are exploring as this has been my life's study. It is interesting to learn that you spent time on the E2 as I was once an IS myself.

You admittedly have done no scientific study. So, no your study is different, likely based purely on your limited experience. If your experience is different, great, we can discuss that experience as well as the science if you don't mind going some of your own research and reading.

If I gave the impression that I have not conducted scientific study I am sorry, ALL of my training is based scientifically and I stick to the model and processes. I am sure you will be happy with my research and I believe we can help each other quite a bit when we piece our paths together if possible.

Here are some quotes that are key from a few sources: “The key to building good muscle memories is to focus on the quality of the quantity “

“...when you want to learn to do something well, break it into small parts and take each part slowly until you're able to do it very well. “

“When you repeat mistakes again and again, you build a muscle memory with those mistakes. That makes those mistakes even harder to overcome later. This is one reason why the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is often true. “

The last quote highlights the error of learning a long form. It is much more likely that you will build in more mistakes, which can be very difficult to unlearn as you attempt to break it up and apply it later.

“muscle memory comes from focusing on a single action or movement “
--http://sportsnscience.utah.edu/musclememory/

The above quotes highlights why doing long Kata is counter-productive to learning functional applications that one can react with dynamically. Shorter “flowing motion drills” that I teach are more digestable, and ingrain into the neuro pathways faster, and allow for better reactions to the stimuli of a real attack.

“The practice of martial arts, in fact, seeks in part to make martial movement instantaneous and reaction habitual. Practicing martial arts has as one of its goals supplanting conscious thought with physical reaction. This "habitual skilled remembering," in Connerton's terms, then "reenacts" aspects of the movement's "historical origin." That is, certain types of movement (or "bodily practice" to use Connerton's terms [72]) may evoke romantic or idealized aspects of the historical origin of movement forms.''

This romantic/idealized aspects are in part what I am referring too. The competition like kata is putting such things into the reaction system that are not realistic. The same is true with sport sparring. The physical reaction becomes tuned to a sporting outcome, not follow-through, or nasty injurious counter attacks.

http://lifehacker.com/5799234/how-muscle-memory-works-and-how-it-affects-your-success

Moreover, “The more possible moves an athlete can execute in a specific competitive situation, the more time it takes for an opponent to react successfully.” This relationship is known as Hick's law.

So it seems I mis-read your article. I COMPLETELY agree with all of this. I thought you were advocating more sparring and less preformed training which the research is directly against of course. I have been widely ridiculed on this and other forums for my strong stance against the efficiency of sparring as a training tool.

Thus, per Hicks law--Kata is giving you a string of possible moves to execute, diminishing your reaction time by the grouping process. (Schmidt, R.A. & Wrisberg, C.A. (2008). Motor learning and performance: A problem-based learning approach (4th ed.). Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics )

Here I believe you make an incorrect jump however. I think you have this exactly backwards but we can talk more in private about this.

Excellent, well then you should be interested in the science and research (some above), behind what type of training produces combat effectiveness and efficiency—my views are well researched and backed by science and experience. I would be happy to read your book and compare notes, I will email you soon. You say your studies reject my premise, but you said above you did not do scientific study?

It is well established that smaller chunks of such physical activity repeated over and over and pressure tested increases reaction time. Hence by “break it up” mentality, and Flowing Motion drill training.
Nonetheless I will take a read and see for myself. But you really should do some actual research and seek out PHD experts, I assure you they will agree with me!

I definitely have done decades of research and certainly used all expert help possible to include PHDs, etc. Glad to know we can compare notes and go forward - I think we are working towards the same goals.

You assumption is somewhat false. I am advocating doing repeated forms, just VERY short forms that are fluid. These short forms should be repeated over and over, both very slow, and very explosively. Sparring incorrectly can lead to mal-training. Sparring is not really the learning phase of the methods, it's the testing phase, a phase that bridges to adrenal stress training, and near full contact training.

My sparring is full contact fighting and it is only done on a VERY limited basis. I did make a bad assumption about what you meant though, sorry. I deplore sparring and feel it is a cancer in training.

Well I think that is preposterous. Rank should be directly proportional to ones ability to apply their MARTIAL art. One's ability to defend themselves and actually USE the art in a fight should be inline with rank. It is a disgrace to see a blackbelt that cannot fight. That type of thinking reduces the MARTIAL arts to a dance, a set of movements that have no application or meaning. A martial artist devoid of fighting ability doesn't deserve to be called a martial artist, period. You couldn't be more wrong here, and that attitude is calamitous to our arts as a whole.

This is simply a bad idea I hope you rethink. The military doesn't follow this thought, for example. I hate rank to begin with, however, if it must be used I feel it should represent knowledge. Ability is event specific and thereby grading for rank would be as well under your model - like Sumo. You may be a black belt today and then meet a green belt that you can't beat - then what. If you say well then I need to retrain then you are only as "good" and you rank is only worth the collective of your fighting experience. Under this path rank is/should never reach any level and thus not exist (FYI this is the model I support!).

Definitely, I look forward to seeing your book and discussing further. I am genuine and sincere, but I don't hold “beliefs” per se, I have facts, science, and empirical evidence to back my methods. For many Martial arts become like a religion, they have a tradition, an axiom, and then engage in apologetics in the arts defense. I like to avoid this mentality. Many arts have different types of value, hence there is no “true religion” in that sense—It's all about what works, and why.

I look forward to reading your book, maybe I'll learn something. I will mail you my new Flowing Motion Drills DVD when it is complete at no charge.

Best Regards,

Gary

Thank you Gary and I am positive we will learn from each other. Can't wait to see your material as well.


Jason Brinn

 

[MJS]

Well, I'm not as big of a fan of kata as some, however, I do feel they're important. I do them, as they're a part of the arts that I do and have done.

Hey Folks, wrote an article for my site; Thoughts,personal experiences, arguments welcome...

What’s Wrong With Kata?
By Gary L Romel, Esq.
www.FlowingCombat.net
​

Window Dressing and Rank Fodder

Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts. I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress. If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced. The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought. Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal. It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion. While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns. This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place. No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight. Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

I can agree with part of that. In ALOT of schools, what you describe is the norm, however, there are schools out there that *gasp* actually make their sudents bust their ***, and where the teacher doesnt hand things out with fries and a coke...LOL! I thank God I train at one of those schools...where my teacher makes EVERYONE, kids and adults, earn their rank. If you suck, he tells you what you need to work on. I guess that's one of the things that seperates a commercial dojo from a traditional one. The problem is, is that if the teacher doesnt understand the kata, there's no way he/she can make the students understand. Theres a hell of alot more than just moving from one thing to the next, and so forth.

Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement

By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death. Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

Gee, thats funny, because katas IMO, are supposed to be just that...continuous movement. Not sure what you're looking at, but the ones I've seen look like they flow very nice.

Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy. Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake. Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin. But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.

Kata, just like SD techniques, are simply drills, a learning tool. Just like focus mitt training. Its training a response for a given situation, but by no means, is it *THE* only solution. The solutions are endless. I disagree with your assessment.

Break It Up

If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

LOL...yeah, ya think! Again, its all how its taught and understood.

Create Your Own short “Kata”

Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/FlowingCombat/videos?view=0


Regards,

Gary R.

This I can agree with. As I said, if the student doesnt understand what the hell they're doing, the kata means nothing.

 

[punisher73]

Hey Folks, wrote an article for my site; Thoughts,personal experiences, arguments welcome...

What’s Wrong With Kata?
By Gary L Romel, Esq.
www.FlowingCombat.net
​

Window Dressing and Rank Fodder

Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts. I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress. If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced. The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought. Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal. It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion. While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns. This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place. No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight. Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement

By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death. Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy. Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake. Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin. But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.


Break It Up

If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

Create Your Own short “Kata”

Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/FlowingCombat/videos?view=0


Regards,

Gary R.

Sorry, I am not going to spend a bunch of time debating the issue. Put bluntly, your argument is about incorrect understanding of kata. In your final paragraph, you mention some "solo short drills". Sooooo, you do utilize kata then. That is all a kata is, a solo drill that is meant to be taken apart and placed in the context of a partner.

 

[GaryR]

Hey Cyriacus, just replied to your PM, thank you for the kind words.

A few general points from your application video (You botched the link, by the way. You may have fixed that by the time i post my reply though):

1; Youre practicing from too far away. I dont know if you were just doing that for the sake of the video, but he couldnt hit you let alone hurt you. If he throws a quick jab from that range, you can decide how youre going to walk all over him for being someone whos highly trained in the art of missing.

Demonstrating at this range is much more effective video yes. This is where a word about ranges is appropriate – I have three stages, Red, Yellow, Green. Red is close up, as it a fist or an elbow can smash through your head, Yellow is where if you lift your arms up, I can reach up and grab and your wrist, or maybe elbow, but unless you step in a tad, you are just out of punching range. Green is when you are out of attack range – and green means GO, get the heck out of there. Yellow is the best case range for counter-offensive tactics. If the person puts their guard up to hit, you can move in , control their wrist/elbow, etc. and take them out. I like to start videos in yellow range, as that is where tactically I am set to engage. The student was a day one newb, instructed to just hit me, he was hesitant to move in on me so I made the best of it. I also wanted him to hit faster/harder, you can probably hear me say faster, faster, lol.

2; Your block in your first application looks like a more flowy relaxed version of the outer block im used to. You seem to be trying to close him up, where i try to open people up or get to an offset through my own movement rather than theirs. Not too bad.

Thanks Brother, yeah the same movement can open or close, depends on angle etc.

3; So, you made a drill about doing an upward wrist strike, as oppose to the countless other things you could do which would permit more and better followups?

Yes, that is a secondary component, the left hand is doing the thrust of the template, I wanted the second hand doing something simple. Other drills give other tools,this is just one. Also the movement can be used for much more than an upward wrist strike as I briefly touched on, it is a very good movement for teaching the concept of “Cai” or pluck from tai chi, intercepting and snatching the wrist/arm of an attack, and yanking them off their center. I didn't spend the time getting into that on the video . It can also move up and be sort of a “peng” or ward off in Taijiquan, I could do hours of video at least on the applications of just that movement

4; Youre practicing statically. Fights (i presume this is for fighting) are dynamic, moving affairs. This might not be so easy when the other person is moving (Ok, it wouldnt be easy at all).

Agreed, it is quite static as shown, room was very limited in space, our training space was outside with poor lighting-thus didn't film there, student was new, the actual DVD filmed in a gym on matts working up to that level of contact will demonstrate a less static situation. Also for the initial learning phase it is more static, hard to teach something starting with too much chaos. It's not easy, but very very doable. This video was more about showing the movement in a continuous drill, and a handful of apps, not a real time demo.

5; He isnt resisting. If he threw those two punches, and you blocked them thusly, he should be in the process of throwing a third punch, or grabbing onto you, all the while moving forward and trying to drive you back. The elbow and head manipulation you tried would be a good way of getting hooked over your left shoulder whilst your left arm is busy trying to do technical stuff.

Correct he is not, I also did not pop him with my strikes. I assure you at first contact I can hit hard enough most people wouldn't even get the second shot off. The elbow / head manipulation—around 2:34 happened after I already made two strikes – the latter to his carotid artery with my left palm edge before the neck/hook and throw. Keep in mind this all happens real-time in a flash, the neck shot (stomach 9 – in TCM terms) would likely render him unconscious at impact, and I would be tossing mush. The first shot, with the wrist could also create a KO if it jarred the head back fast enough kinking the brain stem. It was a cooperative demo to show how the motion drill can be applied a few ways. It was not meant to show how two people can together keep the drill going—it was his first day.

To be clear, i actually agree with the block. Im questioning the followup. Certain things work at certain ranges. Most Bunkai are done from a range where you can touch them with the tip of your elbow without leaning in or reaching - Just raising your arm up, bent 90 degrees. Youre working from medium range, where leverage isnt as effective.

Thanks, yeah, it's a good block and many systems have a version of it or three. As for range, I see what you are getting at. That Bunkai range is a good one to work with for sure, we have many two-man drills at that range as well. As Erle Montaigue used to say “you have to be able to fight in a phone booth”.


I am glad you brought up leverage. Leverage is all about where you put the fulcrum. The ratio of output to input force is given by the ratio of the distances from the fulcrum to the points of application of these forces. This is known as the law of the lever.. If the distance a from the fulcrum to the point A where the input force is applied is greater than the distance b from fulcrum to the point B where the output force is applied, then the lever amplifies the input force. If the opposite is true that the distance from the fulcrum to the input point A is less than from the fulcrum to the output point B, then the lever reduces the magnitude of the input force.


If you will notice at the 5:32 point the fulcrum is where my left hand is placed it is acting like a fulcrum above his elbow, near his shoulder. My right hand is just before before his wrist. Also notice I am pulling his hand towards my center thus magnifying the force with that torque. The shoulder is really about the end of the lever, once the shoulder is pulled out of socket a bit his balance is surely mine for the taking, this also maximizes my lever from the fulcrum placement, sort of a dual use. Also if you notice the angle of my arms, they are at least a 90 degree angle, making my structure harder to collapse should he attempt to struggle or reverse. If my arms where less than 90, my arms would be a really good lever for the taking. Although it appears as if this distance between my arms and body may reduce my levers potential, not so--through the internal arts training/bodymethod, and as a product of good bio-mechanical structure, I can put more than enough force through that structure to the left hand to act as a very strong fulcrum and effectuate a break and throw. As I said before, the end of the lever is near my center to maximize torque (this isn't required for a more skilled practitioner to pull it off) I have tested this against a 300 pound guy, as well as a professional bodybuilder / power lifting champion.

Here is a clip from one of my teachers using leverage in roughly the same way to do more of a toss

6; The second block seems a bit far fetched. Considering that you need to identify the attack, choose your defense, unfreeze, and react, i doubt youd have time to reach across your body and do anything.

Well, it's not, it's actually drilled in what Erle calls “dragon prawns” you have your partner throw very fast punches, two at a time to start at your head, then works up to throwing the second punch low, then changes it up. The waist turn to the left, then right is done as an explosive shake. The second block comes quite without thought and is done from the peripheral vision, which is the best method for reaction time. It actually feels off for a person to not throw the punch. The student hesitated here, and I had to pause and wait for it. Normally I would not wait for it (but it was a demo), whether they throw that punch or not the shake is already going, and that block would simply become a strike.

7; Strikes dont flow - At least not like in app 2. You cant block a punch then strike in with an elbow. That works in theory, but in practice, if the other guy seriously took the time to care, and didnt just thwack you with his left hand, since he can throw successive punches, you wouldnt have even seen the second punch coming. Youve moved in with your only means of defense on that side at that range indisposed trying to hit him with a not-very-forceful elbow. It certainly wont work in as a takedown.

I agree there is less flow, was being careful, and it was a demo to show how the “folding” works, as well as the angle. The elbow strike happens less than a second from initial contact, his left would not have enough time, plus my angle is crowding him as I am moving in,my body turns so that even if that left did come it would have to wrap around my shoulders to hit my head, and there is not enough time for that—as I am very very fast. The left hand would not have time. Also notice I am crowding his body and effectively stuffing his left hand from a rabbit punch to kidneys. Unless the elbow is very ineffective, and unless he is trained in a one inch punch, he won't have the time nor power to put in a good strike before his is taken down. The elbow may not *look like a forceful blow here, but done full speed the momentum continues through it, and I am very much able to do a one inch strike from the elbow fist, ect, that is more than enough to render him unconscious. As for the take-down, it is quite workable, notice my right leg moves in behind his left leg. As the elbow strike drops through him as you can see his back is bent to the point of no recovery. This method is in about a second full force and speed, very tough to show without pads—as I said it is very effective.

To the third:
8; You actually demonstrated a more proper haymaker than most people do. I tip my hat!

Thanks! Yeah, most people don't for sure.

9; Same problem. You indispose your free hand, leaving your head way exposed to a successive punch. If someone charged at you wildly swinging haymakers (baring in mind that the average person can swing about three to five of them a second), so far this defence would get you smacked in the back side of your skull whilst youre busy expecting him to care about your counterattack.

See above—my method happens in less than a second, crowding and striking at first impact as elbow folds at contact to strike, his haymaker would be neutralized, a second wouldn't land, if it did I would be turning to my right away from the strike as I took him down, even if impact happened it would be too late, and minimalized, as his right would be at a good distance from my head as I an turing, and I would have plenty of time to put up a structure/block as shown before w/left to intercept and throw/strike from that side w/the other hand.

10; He isnt resisting, again. If he was swinging his body to his right, and youre trying to turn him to his left, at best youll reduce the power of the strike thats about to hit you in the head. But then, what about the next one?

Correct, he was not resisting enough. I would have to turn back to the right, but my foot is already trapping his, and I am crowding him, above addresses this as well.

I shant continue. Instead im going to lend a suggestion, instead of just picking out flaws.
Application 3; Block the same way, grab his shoulder, step in, swing your rear elbow into his head. Then follow up.

Thanks, that is a good app, and one of many, as I said, this is a template, countless variations, and I love elbows to the back of the head, I have many drills just dedicated to elbows.

No offense, but if this is your alternative to Kata, and their inherent Bunkai, i may need to make a mental note to never go anywere near whatever it is youve learnt

Well it seems from your kind PM you have re-watched and changed your mind a bit here, The solo drill is a continuous short drill, and the principal of such short continuous drill can be used with your own material-- which is a good alternative or even a supplement if you will. I will say no more—but I assure you I have pressure tested this stuff ad nauseam. I hope this post helps you further understand the material.


Thank you for the constructive feedback, I especially am glad you brought up leverage, I think that would make a good separate thread in and of itself, along with torque.
Perhaps you could share your thoughts on range? I think that in and of itself is another very good topic. Range control is HUGE!

Best,

Gary