What makes a Martial Art?????

[exile]

How about...

Fiend of Rationality?
The Ockham's Razor Slasher?

or... just flat-out stealing...

The Living Tribunal?

 

[Langenschwert]

How about...

The Ockham's Razor Slasher?

I like this one. I have visions of someone slashing up invalid syllogisms and circular arguments using a sharpened Categorical Imperative.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Cirdan]

Four HEROIC Cynical Curmudgeons, I salute you. Never seen so much common sense in one thread before. And a Pox upon the spreaders of Myths! :highfive:

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Ockham's Razor Slasher

DAMN!!!

How did I miss that one.

 

[tradrockrat]

sooooo.....


what is this thread about again????? lol

 

[exile]

I like this one. I have visions of someone slashing up invalid syllogisms and circular arguments using a sharpened Categorical Imperative.

Best regards,

-Mark

Thanks, Mark... it makes you look twice at those innocent-looking logicians in their charcoal-grey sweater vests, cordoroy trousers and tweed jackets, eh? You wonder what kinds of things they fantasize about splitting besides hairs... :EG:

DAMN!!!

How did I miss that one.

Hehe... who knows what lurid analytic fantasies were seething in Rudolf Carnap's and Kurt Gödel's subconscious... as I was just saying to Mark, those guys are... like... too quiet!.

sooooo.....


what is this thread about again????? lol

Danged if I can remember... I think the question was, what makes someone a martial artist. My own feeling is, be guided by what the parts of the noun phrase `martial artist' mean and how they're put together. We know that `martial' derives from Mars, the Roman god of war and armed combat generally. Martial literally refers to combat or `warrior-like', according to one definition. `Arts' refer to skills generally: the domestic arts, the `arts of peace', language arts, culinary arts, you name it. So `martial arts' refers to combat skills. The suffix -ist shows up in examples like

violin+ist = violinist (one who performs on the violin)
solo+ist = soloist (one who performs a solo)
psychiatry + ist = psychiatrist (one who practices psychiatry)
dogma + ist = dogma(t)ist (one who `performs' or produces dogma)
.
.
.

So it's pretty clear, given this morphological pattern, that `martial artist' = [martial art]+ist will yield a denotation of `one who practices [martial art(s)] = `one who practices combat arts.' There was a thread a week or two ago in which someboy produced a citation of the first use of the term in English, something a few hundred years back on dueling—a manual, I think it was—Mark, was that you?

It follows that, just by applying a bit of logic, we're led to conclude that the term `martial artist' means nothing more or less than one who performs, practices, or is, to a certain degree, proficient in, combat skills. There is an implication that an art is not a disconnected set of randomly related skills but rather a set of systematically connected skills and techniques, so from that, it would follow that a martial artist is one who has practical knowledge of a systematic (or `codified') set of combat skills and techniques. And that's what pretty much all the dictionary definitions I've consulted have consisted of.

Dictionary makers—lexicographers—are not in the business of prescribing usage; they're trained as linguists and figure their business is to provide the definition of words on the basis of the apparent social consensus which holds among native speakers of that language. And so the claim is that `one who has practical knowledge of a systematic (or `codified') set of combat skills and techniques' reflects the common core of the various uses to which people put the term `martial artist'. I think that this is exactly right, factually speaking: if you tell a given person off the street, Y, that someone else, X, is a martial artist, Y will pretty much understand that X is a practitioner of a codified combat system, very likely of Asian origin, and that s/he is therefore probably a good fighter. And people who have experience in the martial arts themselves will have a similar understanding. They will not conclude from the fact that you've described X as a marital artist that s/he's a saint, or even a very good person, or a particularly virtuous person, or noble, or generous in battle, or all that high chivalric fluff that's part and parcel of the absurd mystification of the martial arts in North America. They'll conclude that X has reasonably good command of certain fighting techniques and may wonder which kind, but they will not conclude that X is anything more, or less, than that.

Now if you want to ask, how should martial artists live? How should they behave?—well, that's a different question entirely. Obviously we'd prefer that MAists were sober-minded, peace-loving people who didn't get into unncecessary fights and who respected their fellows. But we'd prefer that to be the case with violinists, soloists, psychiatrists and dogmatists also, eh? :wink1:

 

[tellner]

Peaceful dogmatists who avoid conflict? Exile, you've been in the rare books section of the library too long. The mold on the pages is screwing up your sense of reality

 

[exile]

Peaceful dogmatists who avoid conflict? Exile, you've been in the rare books section of the library too long. The mold on the pages is screwing up your sense of reality

Well, I'm just saying that that's what we'd prefer—we sure ain' gonna get it. For that matter, I'm not sure that we can expect much peaceful behavior from soloists, and certainly not from psychiatrists! But we can hope and dream, eh?....

 

[Cryozombie]

Guys there is WAY too much discussion on this subject.

What makes a Martial Art?

It has to be MMA.

Everything else is just LARPing.

Just ask any of the MMA guys here.

:2xbird::2xbird:
​

 

[tellner]

LARPing? What's that?

 

[Cirdan]

LARP = Live Action Role Playing. Don`t ask. Been a heavy RPG`er myself but LARP is taking it too far methinks.

 

[Langenschwert]

Thanks, Mark... it makes you look twice at those innocent-looking logicians in their charcoal-grey sweater vests, cordoroy trousers and tweed jackets, eh? You wonder what kinds of things they fantasize about splitting besides hairs... :EG:

Indeed. If we don't nip those things in the bud, we'll be fighting bad philosophy on our Kantian doorsteps. We'll be so broken we'll be reading Heidegger to cheer ourselves up. False logic makes work for idle hands and all that.

So it's pretty clear, given this morphological pattern, that `martial artist' = [martial art]+ist will yield a denotation of `one who practices [martial art(s)] = `one who practices combat arts.' There was a thread a week or two ago in which someboy produced a citation of the first use of the term in English, something a few hundred years back on dueling—a manual, I think it was—Mark, was that you?

Yup. Also I think that "Art" isn't really being used in the sense of "fine art" like music or sculpture, but more analagous to the word craft. So more like an Artisan than an Artist.

It follows that, just by applying a bit of logic, we're led to conclude that the term `martial artist' means nothing more or less than one who performs, practices, or is, to a certain degree, proficient in, combat skills. There is an implication that an art is not a disconnected set of randomly related skills but rather a set of systematically connected skills and techniques, so from that, it would follow that a martial artist is one who has practical knowledge of a systematic (or `codified') set of combat skills and techniques. And that's what pretty much all the dictionary definitions I've consulted have consisted of.

Makes sense to me.

Now if you want to ask, how should martial artists live? How should they behave?—well, that's a different question entirely. Obviously we'd prefer that MAists were sober-minded, peace-loving people who didn't get into unncecessary fights and who respected their fellows. But we'd prefer that to be the case with violinists, soloists, psychiatrists and dogmatists also, eh? :wink1:

Given that jazz musicians used to solve artistic problems with knives and firearms on stage (I've never had to), I don't think soloists tend to be peaceful, either. Don't start a fight with a violinist. They're paranoid about their hands, so they're likely to hit you with a music stand. Or they're packing heat to protect their million dollar violin!

For me, I think an MAist should avoid combat when it's desireable, and not flinch from it when necessary. Don't start a fight, but be prepared to finish it. Above all, be a good person. It doesn't matter if you're an MAist or not, really. Be a good person, a good citizen, and a good ambassdor of the art. What more could anyone ask for?

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[exile]

Indeed. If we don't nip those things in the bud, we'll be fighting bad philosophy on our Kantian doorsteps. We'll be so broken we'll be reading Heidegger to cheer ourselves up. False logic makes work for idle hands and all that.

...and we just Kant let that happen! (... but really... reading Being and Time to cheer yourself up??? That's too surreal...)



Yup. Also I think that "Art" isn't really being used in the sense of "fine art" like music or sculpture, but more analagous to the word craft. So more like an Artisan than an Artist.

Exactly. Culinary arts, domestic arts, that sort of thing.

Given that jazz musicians used to solve artistic problems with knives and firearms on stage (I've never had to), I don't think soloists tend to be peaceful, either. Don't start a fight with a violinist. They're paranoid about their hands, so they're likely to hit you with a music stand. Or they're packing heat to protect their million dollar violin!

Right. Cellists are bad too. And trombonists... just playing the trombone is an act of violence...

For me, I think an MAist should avoid combat when it's desireable, and not flinch from it when necessary. Don't start a fight, but be prepared to finish it. Above all, be a good person. It doesn't matter if you're an MAist or not, really. Be a good person, a good citizen, and a good ambassdor of the art. What more could anyone ask for?

Best regards,

-Mark

Total, complete agreement, Mark!

 

[Last Fearner]

Maybe this has been said maybe not but a bottle of whiskey and a couple cases of beer and who knows what can be consider an Art

My God, Master Stoker! This is perhaps one of the most brilliant, insightful, and truthful comments anyone has made here in the history of Martial Talk!!! It's too bad that most people will brush right past it, not understand it, or worse, will have such a lack of wisdom that they will actually disagree with it.

I have respected many of your posts and input here at MT, but never so much as right now!

:bow:​

CM D.J. Eisenhart
______________________
Last Fearner​

 

[Langenschwert]

...and we just Kant let that happen! (... but really... reading Being and Time to cheer yourself up??? That's too surreal...)

Even reading a synopsis of Being and Time was enough to depress me for a week. So I could go read J.S. Mill to make myself feel smart, and then read Kant to remind myself of all the things that Mill (and Bentham, I suppose) just didn't get.

Right. Cellists are bad too. And trombonists... just playing the trombone is an act of violence...

So a trombonist is a Martial Artist. Go fig! But cellists tend to be hot. As an aside, a friend of mine used to know a guy who would tote around a cello case full of candy canes, and the guy didn't play cello. So perhaps it's the cello case that makes cellists odd, not the cello itself. Food for thought.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Last Fearner]

So what exactly makes a martial art?

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[exile]

G​

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Took a while to see that as a whole, but eventually....

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Just learning a martial art should make you a better person. Also you will have the ability to defend yourself and others.
Sifu
Puyalup, WA

 

[Gyakuto]

A Japanese martial art is a form of combat, developed and used by the elite warriors of Japan (essentially, the Samurai) in actual battle (See the writings of Dave Lowry)

 

[Gyakuto]

Just learning a martial art should make you a better person. Also you will have the ability to defend yourself and others.
Sifu
Puyalup, WA

Some of the most loathsome, dishonest, arrogant and rude people I’ve ever met have been high ranking martial artists.

If you teach a bad person how to use a sword, they will likely become a bad person who knows how to use a sword! There is nothing special about the martial arts with regards making one a ‘better person’.