What is our base?

[Touch Of Death]

I'm going with Blindside on this. I'm curious as to what is so special about the yellow belt material, that it would be considered the base? If we look at all of the techniques, while they, as we move up in rank, may teach a more advanced attack, have more detailed movement, etc., they all consist of what I consider to be basics, ie: blocks, punches, kicks, footwork, etc.

That being said, I feel its those things that are the base. Without those, then nothing we do will amount to anything, because if the basics suck, then everything else will too.

Well if the yellow belt techs aren't the base, then should we just skip teaching them and teach the techs that are the base? At what belt level do we finaly learn a base?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

In the ongoing discussion about what the base is, the base(ics) are the foundation of the building, yellow belt is the lobby.

You have got to be kidding me. Is that how you describe the yellow belt material to your students?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

I guess it really depends upon "what" kenpo you're talking about, and when it was practiced if one chooses to go down that road. My only question is, "How could something be considered the base, when it itself is comprised of other base" material? Then the "Base of the art, would have a base." Then the question could come up, "What is the base of the base of the art?" Then those base moves are comprised of other smaller physical movements that must be done a certain way, so "What is the base, of the base, of the base of the art ..... ?

So for me, in reality I feel the base of any art is its driving philosophies, concepts, and principles to express those philosophies within the context of the art. This is what gives any art a "Martial Identity" that separates it from other like-arts. It is the reason MMA doesn't bite or poke. It is the reason TKD doesn't allow groin kicks and handwork is minor to kicking. It is why Judo does, randori, and Filipino has sticks and knife work. It is the reason that real arts have real science principles to express it over conceptual ideas which are nothing more than empty philosophies.

To suggest it is a series of techniques, or forms, or sets ignores the reality that all of those things are made up of basic physical skills that all arts possess on some level and choose to teach. Which would mean the base of one art is really not much different form any other art making the question itself, moot.

They teach the principles with techs and forms. And base is not the question, its the foundation. The techniques are what students begin learning as soon as they walk in the door.
Sean

 

[Doc]

They teach the principles with techs and forms. And base is not the question, its the foundation. The techniques are what students begin learning as soon as they walk in the door.
Sean

YOUR door.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So it's only our door. How long do your students study before you introduce them to the yellow belt material?
Sean

 

[Doc]

So it's only our door. How long do your students study before you introduce them to the yellow belt material?
Sean

Basics are yellow material. However, In general it takes about a diligent month to get to the first yellow technique.

 

[Blindside]

You have got to be kidding me. Is that how you describe the yellow belt material to your students?
Sean

No, I had to come up with that for this conversation, the lobby offers direction and an introduction to the building/art. Kenpo was taught without it before and could be so taught again. Would you be unable to teach kenpo without the first 10 techniques?

 

[MJS]

Of course you're right sir but, all arts have the same building blocks, albeit they may be assembled somewhat differently. I guess my answer is tied closely to the over-riding philosophy I was taught that states Stances, Punches, Kicks, Strikes, and Footwork are the universal base of ALL arts, but to what degree, what you emphasize, and how you execute those things is what separate one art from another.

Life and work has been really weighing me down, thanks for noticing sir.

Well, its nice to see you back. I see your point.

You're so quick I couldn't even finish before you finished it for me. You are absolutely right sir. No doubt, and that is where most arts also fall apart because they tend to "mumble" their own building blocks for the sake of expediency and retention. It is a paradox in that it is what separates most arts, but also what makes most of them pretty much the same.

Good point.

 

[MJS]

Well if the yellow belt techs aren't the base, then should we just skip teaching them and teach the techs that are the base? At what belt level do we finaly learn a base?
Sean

Umm...where did I say not to teach the yellow techs? I simply said that I feel that the basics are the base, because without those, we wont have anything to build from. Punches, kicks, stances, etc are found in every tech. IMO, the only difference between a yellow belt attack and a green belt attack, is the level. The kicks and other stuff is still there...its the difference, IMO, of what the attack is and how the moves are put together.

So, what level do we learn a base? I'd say white.

 

[MJS]

Basics are yellow material. However, In general it takes about a diligent month to get to the first yellow technique.

And rightfully so, IMO. I mean, if they can't do a correct punch, kick, stance, etc. then they're probably not going to be able to put them all together in a tech.

This reminds me of when I'd teach a tech. to someone. They'd go thru it and say, "Ok, I got it. Whats next?" Needless to say, 99% of the time, they didn't 'have it.'

 

[Touch Of Death]

Umm...where did I say not to teach the yellow techs? I simply said that I feel that the basics are the base, because without those, we wont have anything to build from. Punches, kicks, stances, etc are found in every tech. IMO, the only difference between a yellow belt attack and a green belt attack, is the level. The kicks and other stuff is still there...its the difference, IMO, of what the attack is and how the moves are put together.

So, what level do we learn a base? I'd say white.

In some kenpo and not all, the first techs you learn are foundations on which to build more complex techniques such as the orange belt, purple belt and so on. If the first ten are not the foundation or "base" if you will, why teach them? As for forms, if short one is not a base to build Long I. off of then throw that out too. How is that ever gonna help you? And you mentioned levels... I'm suggesting the yellow belt material is the "first level".
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Basics are yellow material. However, In general it takes about a diligent month to get to the first yellow technique.

A whole month? And your students don't build the colored belt techs from the first set of techs you teach them, because they are not foundations in any sense?
Sean

 

[kaizasosei]

the base of the art, which is external and traditional becomes the base of the practitioner. But before that, and at the start and during the learning process there is the innate understanding in the practitioner. A person starting martial arts will see and understand when it comes to the practical external execution of techniques. But that act of observation and the subsequent development of skills, is something internal. So the base is really the soul, the funk. Perhaps it can somehow be stimulated in young years or be inside the genetic memory of the practitioner, even latently.

As it is often said that the beginner martial artist will try to win, the middle practitioner will try to study technique and the master will try to better himself and his actions.

Then one could also speculate further that there are aesthetic aspects within the martial arts that have to do with symetry, lines, even grace(see taichi). At the very same time one must also take into account that the martial arts, as any actions, will affect the body and mind. With martial arts the movements are infinately free and the possibilities quite endless.
So one could say the base is the willpower, the goals that one has and the inspiration that drives you to achieve them.
Then there is form, physical feeling-what is good for the body?, what not?-what makes the technique effective, what not?- what will affect the body how. How to make the spirit stronger and the body supple yet strong in the best way

The base is starts off somewhere between hard and soft.
There is no separation from that level. We're all in the same boat yet with our own respective decisions and destinies.


j

 

[Blindside]

In some kenpo and not all, the first techs you learn are foundations on which to build more complex techniques such as the orange belt, purple belt and so on. If the first ten are not the foundation or "base" if you will, why teach them? As for forms, if short one is not a base to build Long I. off of then throw that out too. How is that ever gonna help you? And you mentioned levels... I'm suggesting the yellow belt material is the "first level".
Sean

Now you are offering multiple bases, a base for your forms, a base for your techniques, how many bases does the art have? Is there a base set or do the sets represent a base in themselves? You originally asked about what is THE base, singular, and perhaps it is simply a disagreement about what you mean by "base" that is leading to miscommunication.

After being recently informed, by a well respected Kenpo Master, that it is idiotic to believe the yellow belt material is the base of our art, What is the base of the art?
Sean

Is yellow belt THE base for the material in the forms, or in the freestyle techniques?

 

[MJS]

In some kenpo and not all, the first techs you learn are foundations on which to build more complex techniques such as the orange belt, purple belt and so on. If the first ten are not the foundation or "base" if you will, why teach them? As for forms, if short one is not a base to build Long I. off of then throw that out too. How is that ever gonna help you? And you mentioned levels... I'm suggesting the yellow belt material is the "first level".
Sean

I see what you're saying Sean, but I can't help but to repeat myself and say that the basics are the stances, punches, kicks, etc. You gotta walk before you run, right? So if that person doesnt have a solid base first, that base being what I said, ie: the proper way to punch, kick, block, move, etc. then if they try to go headfirst into a tech., against someone who is moving, resisting, etc, their defense will probably fail.

The forms are, IMO, nothing more than movements that we already know...once we learn the basic movement, ie: punching, kicking, stances, etc. You compared S1 being a preface to L1. Aside from L1 being more advanced, complex, whatever, the basics are still there. You need a basic base, before you can have a more advanced base.

 

[pete]

1. learn to stand
2. learn to breathe
3. learn to walk
4. do all 3 without getting hit
5. learn to hit back without hurting themselves

give 'em a technique, because it keeps them quiet while you teach them 1-5.

pete

 

[Doc]

1. learn to stand
2. learn to breathe
3. learn to walk
4. do all 3 without getting hit
5. learn to hit back without hurting themselves

give 'em a technique, because it keeps them quiet while you teach them 1-5.

pete

Priceless! Shamelessly stolen.

 

[Doc]

I see what you're saying Sean, but I can't help but to repeat myself and say that the basics are the stances, punches, kicks, etc. You gotta walk before you run, right? So if that person doesnt have a solid base first, that base being what I said, ie: the proper way to punch, kick, block, move, etc. then if they try to go headfirst into a tech., against someone who is moving, resisting, etc, their defense will probably fail.

The forms are, IMO, nothing more than movements that we already know...once we learn the basic movement, ie: punching, kicking, stances, etc. You compared S1 being a preface to L1. Aside from L1 being more advanced, complex, whatever, the basics are still there. You need a basic base, before you can have a more advanced base.

Absolutely sir. Many in some forms of Kenpo miss or skip this "basic" fact because the art doesn't contain physical basics and were never emphasized by its creator. For them, the self defense techniques are the basics because that has always been the commercial area of emphasis. People argue over "how" a technique should be done but rarely discuss the proper execution of basic stances, footwork, etc. The true base of ANY art. The rest is simply an expression of those foundational tools, or base. The other view is kinda like trying to swim, when you haven't been taught how to stroke, kick, or breathe - you drown.

 

[Ray]

Absolutely sir. Many in some forms of Kenpo miss or skip this "basic" fact because the art doesn't contain physical basics and were never emphasized by its creator. For them, the self defense techniques are the basics because that has always been the commercial area of emphasis. People argue over "how" a technique should be done but rarely discuss the proper execution of basic stances, footwork, etc. The true base of ANY art. The rest is simply an expression of those foundational tools, or base. The other view is kinda like trying to swim, when you haven't been taught how to stroke, kick, or breathe - you drown.

I don't know whether the physical basics were or weren't "emphasized by its creator" but I do know that you "old guys" sure seem to loathe poor physical basics, and have a really keen eye at spotting them at trying to correct poor fools like me.

 

[Doc]

Priceless! Shamelessly stolen.

I'd like to add; not only shamelessly stolen, I intend to use it tonight.