What is "American Ninjutsu"

[Bester]

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance

 

[tshadowchaser]

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be AN

 

[gmunoz]

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?

 

[loki09789]

American Ninjutsu - .

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

 

[gmunoz]

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool:

 

[heretic888]

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

No.

Is karate simply "Okinawan Boxing"?? Is wrestling simply "Western Jujutsu"?? Are Ainu hunters simply "Native American Japanese"??

 

[Bester]

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.

 

[gmunoz]

Right, right...

 

[Enson]

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace

 

[Enson]

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.

"without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying

 

[Bester]

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool:

Yes, and Ed Parker was a Hawaiian, so shouldn't his system be "Hawaiian Kenpo"?

Let me put this another way.

You are calling this section "American Ninjutsu".
But Ninja, Ninjutsu, etc are Japanese words.
There never were American Ninjas.
Show me 1 historical document that states otherwise.

Mr. Hayes does not teach Ninjutsu, he teaches To Shin Do.
What is To Shin Do?
"To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages. At the same time, our training program is built around a very modern approach to handling the kind of threats and confrontations most likely in our own contemporary culture."
From http://www.skhquest.com/training/ToShinDoDescription.aspx

"Today, I offer courses in the modern 21st Century ninjutsu application that I refer to as To-Shin Do, based on ninja principles but updated for the real threats of today."
From http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

Based on his own words, he is not teaching "Ninjutsu".

Regarding Mr. Tew, on his website he has the quote "As American as Apple Pie".
Unfortunately, it seems he doesn't understand what that really means. People believe Americans invented Apple Pie. Apple Pie was infact English. ""Thy breath is like the steame of apple-pyes," wrote Robert Greene in "Arcadia" in 1590."

Misspelling a few foriegn words, and borrowing concepts and techniques and tossing them into a blender does not an art make. Thousands of McDojos do that all the time, using similar words as his. What makes his system any different than theirs?
While he makes many valid points on his website, especially concerning BJJ/JJ, it still leaves the point of why call it NinjItsu, and not say, JKD, unanswered. Like JKD, his martial system is a combination of borrowed techniques and concepts, tossed in a blender and flavored with American Apple Pie.

What is to stop me, from doing the same and opening some schools, and calling it "Real American Ninjutsu."? If I did, and gave out some black belts, would I then have earned a spot here?

You can call me troll, and you can smack me as often as you like in the rep system. What you can not escape is the fact that you can not justify the use of a foriegn word for an American system. And, before anyone says "Well, he doesn't", I counted over 10 uses of the word "Ninja", "Ninjutsu" and "NinjItsu" on his home page alone. Oh, but thats not really it. His system is Rick Tew Martial Science. Right. That is why on his home page he makes a distinct seperation between RTMS and NinjItsu.
"Training Today's Ninja - Rick Tew's Martial Science and Tew Ryu Ninjitsu is your source for up to date total warrior information and training. 2 seperate items.

If the reason for havign a seperate area is so that the Americans can have their own variation, then you must include Ashida Kim and HaHa Lung as well. Both are also Americans, teaching Ninja.

Your line in the sand is weak.

 

[Bester]

Right, right...

Good response. Can't refute the facts, resort to retort.

 

[Bester]

"without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying

Christian quotations don't apply to me, nor does the visions of Black Elk.

I will however return the quote, with a quote: "The more gross the fraud the more glibly will it go down, and the more greedily be swallowed, since folly will always find faith where impostors will find imprudence."

""If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of ninjutsu, devoid of the influences of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secret for becoming invincible -- the attainment of the 'mind and eyes of god'."" -- Takamatsu Toshitsugu

Of course, the later is that "Traditional" stuff you reject, right?

 

[Enson]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Enson
-MT Moderator-

 

[loki09789]

no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace

Actually it would be more like saying that the Marine corps infantry training is similar to Army infantry training. And the answer is yes, they are similar...in tools/goals/philosophy....but may differ in some specific details.

Again, I admit to a small amount of Ninjitsu knowledge, but a friend and student of Ninjutsu described the historical Ninja as the 'Japanes Medieval Special Forces' so I don't think that if you compare goals, tactics, intent, structure that it is too far a reach.

What was the purpose of the clan training? What topics were covered? What tools/weapons were they trained in? What command and control issues did they address?....and it goes on.

The biggest difference I can see is the scale because of the governmental structure. Modern CIA/Intel operators work for a nationalistic structure and not a clan structure, but the function and use of the training is essentially the same to me. What it has become in terms of hobby/commercial application is based on what went before, but - as with all commerical martial arts - has had all the 'meaningful stuff' condensed into the things that can be trained legally and responsibly for the day we live in when in the past the training was different.

 

[heretic888]

I would argue they differ substantially, loki.

Different social structure, different cultural values, different level of technology and natural resources, different motivatons and goals, different political environment, so on and so on.

They are similar in the sense that they both specialize(d) in "unconventional warfare", but that's about it.

 

[Moko]

Bester, Dude. I feel your pain. However I suggest you leave the "Amercian Ninjer" types to their our devices. That they c annot see the obvious is because they do not want to see the obvious. They train in fraudulent systems. Period.

To the Gentleman who suggested the "American Ninjer" types try to catalogue the differences in their different marketing strategies, I have already tried to engage this crew in intelligent conversation but it didn't fly. Too bad it would be to the advantage os some of them to be able to say on the ANFS ( AMERICAN NINJER FRAUD SCALE) My school ranks a 5.9 on a scale of 10. This would be emprical though still somewhat subjective. It would take lots of work and thought. This is the wrong forum for it. This is the forum for Ninjer reach-arounds.

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from?

To the people who are giving me negative karma points. Please note that it doesn't affect me in my real life. My girlfreind still loves me, my cat still hangs out here, My son loves me, My teachers put up with me and my students haven't gone away. I am employed and making money. The Karma doesn't seem to be working on me. It only makes you feel better in this pathetic little world that means so much to y'all. Cool. If you had any man parts of signififgance you would leave your name each time you drill me for karma. Don't worry I won't drill you back, it doesn't matter in real life.

Robert

 

[Limeydog]

What is the difference between American Ninjutsu and Modern Ninjutsu?

If is is a western version of a Japanese system, would the terminology be written in English, much like American Kenpo (I hold a 2nd Degree Black Belt)?
Also I believe at one time it was called Hawaiin Kenpo, then it became American Kenpo. Also isn't the term Ninjitsu incorrect? To be a true system of Ninjutsu shouldn't the founder have a recognised background in the traditional system i.e Bujinkan under Hatsumi Soke? What makes a true off shoot system in the first place?

Sorry this debate has me enthralled...my brain is working way too hard on a Friday afternoon.

Later
Patrick

 

[Bester]

Alot of that's been covered in the Japanese section already...long reading, I'll sumarize for ya.

Some of those in the Modern/American did train in legitimate ninjutsu. They then added their own improvements and modernizations, some cultural, others egotistical.

Others trained under fakers, realized the fraud and tried to legitimatize their own work to correct the failings of their teacher.

Others are flat out frauds, in it for the money alone, and unable to defeat wet peat moss without cheating like a WWE champion.

Ninjitsu is either not a real word, ot means something totally different.

Legitimate Ninjutsu with verifiable lineages traces back to Hatsumi.

Be careful in the AN forum as some are sensitive when you point certain truths out.
Other folks welcome new information and have open minds and empty cups.

 

[Seig]

Shizen Shigoku,

Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip!

I'll try to limit my posts from now on.

This not an official warning, just a nudge. Posting merely to increase your belt rank is against MT rules. That is why the Bar and Grill was created, to discourage such tactics. If it becomes apparent a member is doing something to circumvent this rule, their posts will be culled and or combined and disciplinary measures will be taken.