What is "American Ninjutsu"

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heretic888

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Enson said:
clearly! hee hee! i didn't know that was a requirement to study martial arts...

Its not. But, you asked why things are done the way they are done in Japan.

Take in mind that several Japanese would be just as bewildered at the way we do things in the West, as well.
 

Enson

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heretic888 said:
Its not. But, you asked why things are done the way they are done in Japan.

Take in mind that several Japanese would be just as bewildered at the way we do things in the West, as well.
no, no, i looked back and never asked that. that was a response given to me regarding my question on why hatsumi let a book be written in his name.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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He's Japanese. You apparently have a hard time understanding the way Japanese are.

Ben Cole uttered the following phrase once and no one has said it better yet: "Hatsumi sensei will gladly give you the rope you need to hang yourself with".
 

Enson

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Nimravus said:
He's Japanese. You apparently have a hard time understanding the way Japanese are.

Ben Cole uttered the following phrase once and no one has said it better yet: "Hatsumi sensei will gladly give you the rope you need to hang yourself with".
apparently so. i don't think it is a cultural thing saying "okay write a book with my picture on it and my name on it but totally wrong ideas... then after you make me rich i will totally deny ties to you or the book." again hatsumi never said this... just hearsay and rumors.
 

heretic888

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Enson said:
no, no, i looked back and never asked that. that was a response given to me regarding my question on why hatsumi let a book be written in his name.

You asked why Hatsumi was apparently "inconsistent". We gave you an answer. Apparently, it was one you didn't like.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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If Hatsumi sensei has denied his ties to Stephen Hayes, which I seriously doubt he has, that book would have nothing to do with it.

Did it ever occur to you that it may have been Stephen Hayes who WANTED to write the book in question?
 

Enson

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Nimravus said:
If Hatsumi sensei has denied his ties to Stephen Hayes, which I seriously doubt he has, that book would have nothing to do with it.

Did it ever occur to you that it may have been Stephen Hayes who WANTED to write the book in question?
sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.
 

heretic888

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Enson said:
sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.

What about launching a war under false pretenses?? :p

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Enson said:
sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.
Going further in that direction, is it just me or has anyone else thought of the hilariousness of the fact that Stephen Hayes claims to teach his own interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's art using Western principles, while at the same time clinging to his old "five elements theory"?
 

Enson

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Nimravus said:
Going further in that direction, is it just me or has anyone else thought of the hilariousness of the fact that Stephen Hayes claims to teach his own interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's art using Western principles, while at the same time clinging to his old "five elements theory"?
actually i think don roley said that hayes is the only one that used the five elements, and that wasn't done in japan. weird.
 

heretic888

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Hayes got the idea from his studies of Tendai Mikkyo --- and perhaps a rather interesting interpretation of the sanshin no kata --- and, since Ninpo was obviously influenced by Mikkyo, kinda "smushed" the two together.

My guess is you'll see things Hayes calls "Ninpo" that are actually only taught in Mikkyo, and you'll see things he calls "Mikkyo" that are actually only taught in Ninpo.

But, really, that's another topic altogether. ;)
 

Kizaru

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Enson said:
sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.
Ashida Kim, Haha Lung, Frank Dux, the list could go on and on. Americans, like every other nationality, are not perfect. I think as we pass into adulthood, we realize that the world "is" and it's not necessarily the way we think it "should be" or expect it to be.

Now I'm not saying that SKH wrote that book under "false pretenses" though. Who's to say that wasn't his best understanding of the information at the time, or that he beleived the information to be correct?
 

Don Roley

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Enson said:
actually i think don roley said that hayes is the only one that used the five elements, and that wasn't done in japan. weird.

I think you missed the point. The five element theory is not American, nor is it part of the way the Bujinkan is taught in Japan. Re-read the post by Nimravus again and it will now be clearer as to what he was trying to say.
 

sojobow

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Don Roley said:
Sojobow,
You post directed at me was rather disjointed and just seemed to bounce back and forth among certain things.

Let me see if I can get this straight. You want people to accept your definition of ninjutsu, quote a book and assign your own meaning to it. When I point out that your reading of it really is not what 99 percent of the population would say it is, you start tossing even more barbs at those disagreeing with you.
Not at all. I don't want people to accept my definition as I have not presented my definition. what I presented was someone elses (Hatsumi Sensei's) definition. I have assigned no meaning as the definition is quite clear and speaks for itself. Quite clear and less than 5 words. When did we have this scientific pole where 99 percent of the population would have a different opinion than that of given by Hatsumi Sensei? No barbes were intended. I only ask that that 99 percent that disagree with the definition presented, present their own. Thus far, no takers. Not one single definition of Ninjutsu was presented by anyone other than the one I presented. Only complaints at the only definition presented. I believe it would help a lot more if you drop the complaints and present to this Forum and the administration, your (meaning you and the other 99 percent) own definition. Misdirection by constantly complaining could only mean that no one knows any definitions.

And if you want to start bringing up past history (i.e. with Kizaru) there is a ton of stuff we could bring up that you have failed to give a decent answer to in the past. Since they were first, maybe we should deal with them, or you can drop your sniping at him and deal with the issue.
The difference is that what I have failed to give a decent answer to in the past is (1)it's your opinion that the answers were not decent but they were honest, and (2)Kizaru was totally dishonest. He knows it and you know it so defending him may also indicate some type of dishonesty on your part. I am not sniping at him or anyone else for that matter. I would consider his last post above "sniping" for that matter and it is noted that he did not "deal with the issues" just as you have not dealt with the issue. As there is no written definition of "sniping" on this Forum, excuse me from doing so. In reality, any answer I present is decent.

Wanna give us your definition now or are we to read another one of your unfounded complaints?
 

sojobow

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Flatlander said:
==================================================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-
===================================================
I think I may have asked more than once before but have yet to be presented with the information.
I have read just about all of the information you have linked us to. I have noted such written Policies as:
General Rules, More specific policies, terms of usage, etc.. You do have written Policies such as:
Account Policy
Avatar Policy
Image Posting Policy
Complaint Policy:
Copyrighted Material/Content Policy
Signature Policy
and others.
However, I'd really like to read what a "Sniping Policy" is defined as. Maybe I just keep missing it. Please cut and paste it here for me. I keep getting bounced but never actually know why.
 

sojobow

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Seig said:
Why is the definition if ninjutsu even being discuissed? I thought our guidelines were clear.
I think it has clearly been shown that those guidelines are actually incorrect begining with the initial sentence. Whether or not they remain so is up to you and other members of your administration. I will accept whatever is agreed upon. I do believe that you are finalizing things very soon so the definitions are really of no use and I, for one, will discontinue participating in the discussion within this thread. Not really getting anywhere anyway.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
Not at all. I don't want people to accept my definition as I have not presented my definition. what I presented was someone elses (Hatsumi Sensei's) definition.

And again I will point out that the book says that what the ninja did was known as ninjutsu- it was not a definition as you are trying to portray it as.

Here is the quote,

As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japans history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands.

Now, you take that to 99 percent of the population and ask them if that means that ninjutsu is the study of things AS THEY WERE DONE and they will say no. The correct definition would be that there were a group and they were called ninja. And the stuff they did was called ninjutsu.

Try inserting the words "doctors" and "medicine" instead of "ninja" and "ninjutsu" and we can clerly see the flaw in your interpetation.
 
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