What Is A Kukki Taekwondo Dojang

Archtkd

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After poring through a number of recent thread it's apparent there are tons of differing opinions out there not just about what taekwondo is, but more specifically what Kukki taekwondo is. What do you consider a Kukki taekwondo dojang?

Here's -- and this could raise the ire of some -- my rather narrow criteria on what constitutes a Kukki taekwondo dojang.

1. The dojang (grandmaster or master instructor) actually recommends all qualified members for Kukkiwon dan/poom certification.

2. The dojang practices (mandatory) current Kukkiwon poomsae. Where "current" actually means Kukkiwon poomsae as created in 1972 -- with minor adjustments to account for minor changes made in the last forty years. Palgwe does not count unless it's considered supplimental training in addition to taeguk and yudanja poomsae. Many of the thing folks are calling "sport" or "new" in poomsae are not really new.

3. Teacher is preferrably certified as an international master instructor by the Kukkiwon, is planning to soon seek that certification, or is affilliated with a teacher who is certified as a master instructor by the Kukkiwon.

4. The dojang practices (mandatory) WTF sparring preferrabley using what's commonly known as "modern training methods."

5. The dojang uses Korean or English terminoolgy and basic commands. No Japanese

6. The dojang teaches meaningful hoshinshul -- thiis can be structured in numerous ways and take from other arts especially the Korean ones including hapkido.

7. The dojang pactices and teaches breaking -- and again this can be structured in numerous ways to include different materials and techniques.

8. V-Neck doboks are worn in the dojang -- preferrably white. New poomsae doboks are acceptable for competion. Dan stripes and other bling are not neccessary for blacbelts.
 

skribs

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For those of us who speak only the most basic Korean, what is Hoshinshul?
 

Tony Dismukes

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I consider that in a Kooky taekwondo dojang the chief instructor would wear clown shoes and a beanie with a propeller. Students would be required to demonstrate their breaking techniques on lime Jello and perform musical poomsae set to Weird Al songs.

Furthermore ...

Wait, did you say Kooky or Kukki?

Never mind.
 

Gnarlie

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I agree with Archtkd's definition, and would include the dojang I currently train at as being within those criteria.

I would, however, add that those are sort of minimum mandatory criteria. There can be other elements laid into the syllabus under hoshinsul, and different types of sparring.

Meaningful hoshinsul is the right phrase, though, as it must cover a multitude of elements to be meaningful.

Gnarlie
 

Dirty Dog

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I would say this is a reasonable definition of a purely KKW dojang since it strictly follows the KKW curriculum.
I think most places teach more than the minimal requirements. And there are at least as many (like ours) who teach the KKW curriculum but not as the primary focus of the school.
We are a Moo Duk Kwan school, first and foremost, with KKW training and rank available as an option.



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skribs

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My dojang meets all but #2. We use the Palgwes.
 

Dirty Dog

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I'm going to reply in more detail. It's a lot easier to do this when I'm not on my phone...

After poring through a number of recent thread it's apparent there are tons of differing opinions out there not just about what taekwondo is, but more specifically what Kukki taekwondo is. What do you consider a Kukki taekwondo dojang?

Here's -- and this could raise the ire of some -- my rather narrow criteria on what constitutes a Kukki taekwondo dojang.

I'd agreed that this is an extremely narrow definition. And I'd go so far as to say that it's MUCH more narrow than the definition used by the Kukkiwon itself.

1. The dojang (grandmaster or master instructor) actually recommends all qualified members for Kukkiwon dan/poom certification.

Nope. We don't do baby black belt at all, and although we do offer KKW Dan rank, it's an option, so certainly not "all" are recommended for KKW rank.

2. The dojang practices (mandatory) current Kukkiwon poomsae. Where "current" actually means Kukkiwon poomsae as created in 1972 -- with minor adjustments to account for minor changes made in the last forty years. Palgwe does not count unless it's considered supplimental training in addition to taeguk and yudanja poomsae. Many of the thing folks are calling "sport" or "new" in poomsae are not really new.

Our primary poomsae is the 6 Kicho and 8 Palgwae poomsae. The taegeuks are also taught, but are not the core curriculum. The Yudanja forms are the same, except we're one-rank "stricter" (for lack of a better word) i.e., Koryo is required for 1st Dan, not 2nd.

3. Teacher is preferrably certified as an international master instructor by the Kukkiwon, is planning to soon seek that certification, or is affilliated with a teacher who is certified as a master instructor by the Kukkiwon.

Yup. Our Kwanjangnim was originally a student of GM Hwang Kee, but stayed with GM Lee when GM Hwang left the unification movement.

4. The dojang practices (mandatory) WTF sparring preferrabley using what's commonly known as "modern training methods."

Sure. We don't only spar under the WTF ruleset, because it's too restrictive for a school that isn't primarily focused on sport. Unless you mean "only practices [...]"?

5. The dojang uses Korean or English terminoolgy and basic commands. No Japanese

Well, there's a large Hispanic population here, so sometimes we use a little Spanish...

6. The dojang teaches meaningful hoshinshul -- thiis can be structured in numerous ways and take from other arts especially the Korean ones including hapkido.

I certainly like to think we do... that's our primary focus.

7. The dojang pactices and teaches breaking -- and again this can be structured in numerous ways to include different materials and techniques.

Yup. Breaking is taught, practiced, and required for promotion. Of course, we don't require anybody to ever test, but that's a different issue.

8. V-Neck doboks are worn in the dojang -- preferrably white. New poomsae doboks are acceptable for competion. Dan stripes and other bling are not neccessary for blacbelts.

Well... our students wear white V-Necks. Most of them. There are a couple who transferred from other schools who already had warp-style. And given that it's a YMCA based program, and that a lot of our students are from low income families, we're not going to tell them they can't train unless they buy a new dobak. This is probably the least important thing in this list.
And personally, I prefer black pants. Paired with a diamond pattern top. Usually white, with black diamonds. But they're all V-Neck...
Well, except for the black wrap-style with white diamonds...


So we don't meet your criteria for a KKW school. That's OK; we're a Moo Duk Kwan school first and foremost. And the KKW still considers us a KKW school.
At least, they've never refused to register one of our black belts...
 
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WaterGal

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I don't like saying what schools are "real" or not, especially if it's not a school I'm closely familiar with. But by and large I do think that list is pretty reasonable.

For us, the only "issue", as it were, would be with "meaningful hoshinsul".

What I would consider meaningful hoshinsul means spending 20+ minutes 2-3x per week practicing grappling techniques in great detail, to really drill in the principles into the muscle memory and learn to deal with dozens of different potential self-defense scenarios. Plus regular free grappling sparring/practice, so you get used to a more realistic unstructured fight situation, plus nakbup so you learn to fall safely and not break something. When you add warm-ups, stretching, and striking practice, you're at 50-60 minutes already, which doesn't leave any time for forms and WTF sparring. So we don't do "meaningful" hoshinsul in our TKD program, just some self-defense-oriented striking techniques and going over the basic grabbing techniques you see in the Taegeuk forms.
 
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Archtkd

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So we don't meet your criteria for a KKW school. That's OK; we're a Moo Duk Kwan school first and foremost. And the KKW still considers us a KKW school.
At least, they've never refused to register one of our black belts...

I think you would be considered a Kukki taekwondo for the most part, but it's nice that you identify the dojang as a Moo Duk Kwan school first. There are many schools out there, which identify and advertise themselves as Kukki taekwono dojangs, even though they don't -- have never -- recommended their members for Kukkiwon certification, among other things.
 
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Archtkd

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I don't like saying what schools are "real" or not, especially if it's not a school I'm closely familiar with. But by and large I do think that list is pretty reasonable.

For us, the only "issue", as it were, would be with "meaningful hoshinsul".

What I would consider meaningful hoshinsul means spending 20+ minutes 2-3x per week practicing grappling techniques in great detail, to really drill in the principles into the muscle memory and learn to deal with dozens of different potential self-defense scenarios. Plus regular free grappling sparring/practice, so you get used to a more realistic unstructured fight situation, plus nakbup so you learn to fall safely and not break something. When you add warm-ups, stretching, and striking practice, you're at 50-60 minutes already, which doesn't leave any time for forms and WTF sparring. So we don't do "meaningful" hoshinsul in our TKD program, just some self-defense-oriented striking techniques and going over the basic grabbing techniques you see in the Taegeuk forms.

I understand. By meaningful I meant a dojang is teaching members some kind of applicable self defense. My view, and some might disagree, is that Kukki taekwondo, when we come down to it, is a fighting system. If you've been practicing taekwondo for more than a year in my dojang and are not physically and mentally prepared to vigoruously fight and defend yourself in a street ramble, then I'm not doing my job.

Now, can I guarantee the stuff I teach will always work, or that the person learning it will use it whille under imminent danger and pressure? No. But we try to do what we can, in the same way that you teach sparring and poomsae. Some folks get it and others completely freeze in competition or belt testing. I tend to think those are the same folks who are likely to freak out in a bad situation outside the dojang.
 

andyjeffries

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My dojang meets all but #2. We use the Palgwes.

Then according to the rules, unless you learn the Taegeuks before testing for dan ranks, you haven't learnt the (very mimimal) Kukkiwon requirements.

At the Kukkiwon Foreign Taekwondo Master Training Course last summer in Korea they didn't even touch the palgwae poomsae.
 

andyjeffries

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What do you consider a Kukki taekwondo dojang?

I think your definition is spot on.

1. The dojang (grandmaster or master instructor) actually recommends all qualified members for Kukkiwon dan/poom certification.

All our dan/poom members have Kukkiwon certification. We also offer optional Changmookwan certification, but that's above and on top of Kukkiwon.

2. The dojang practices (mandatory) current Kukkiwon poomsae. Where "current" actually means Kukkiwon poomsae as created in 1972 -- with minor adjustments to account for minor changes made in the last forty years. Palgwe does not count unless it's considered supplimental training in addition to taeguk and yudanja poomsae. Many of the thing folks are calling "sport" or "new" in poomsae are not really new.

We do Taegeuk poomsae from 9th Kup and Koryo+ at 1st Kup.

3. Teacher is preferrably certified as an international master instructor by the Kukkiwon, is planning to soon seek that certification, or is affilliated with a teacher who is certified as a master instructor by the Kukkiwon.

I certified last year (3rd Class) and will go for 2nd Class in 2016/2017 after my Kukkiwon 6th Dan and Changmookwan 7th Dan. Our founder (my instructor) is a Kukkiwon 1st Class Instructor.

4. The dojang practices (mandatory) WTF sparring preferrabley using what's commonly known as "modern training methods."

Yep

5. The dojang uses Korean or English terminoolgy and basic commands. No Japanese

Yep (and I'd find it highly weird to hear Japanese used...).

6. The dojang teaches meaningful hoshinshul -- thiis can be structured in numerous ways and take from other arts especially the Korean ones including hapkido.

Yep, every 3rd or 4th session.

7. The dojang pactices and teaches breaking -- and again this can be structured in numerous ways to include different materials and techniques.

Yep, probably about once per month.

8. V-Neck doboks are worn in the dojang -- preferrably white. New poomsae doboks are acceptable for competion. Dan stripes and other bling are not neccessary for blacbelts.

Not necessary, but we allow embroidery/printing - but not oodles of badges sewn on.
 

Master Dan

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This is so boring can't wait to post picture of my best friend testing for 8t Dan in Korea
 

seasoned

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This is so boring can't wait to post picture of my best friend testing for 8t Dan in Korea

Hey Master Dan, what part of this thread do you find so boring?? Do you think posting pictures of your friend will add something to the thread that is missing?
 
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