Weapon Techniques

[Stick Dummy]

Seig,

Thanks again to all of your school:asian:



As far as Kenpo, I don't know Jack.........

I have on occassion trained with Master Seig and his students, Mike and I have spent a few hours before and after work discussing technique (some quite animated - much to the amusement of co-workers).

This is inclusive of internal and external theory of various arts, and a number of other subjects related to survival of a confrontation.

Kenpo definately has a certain synergy with any of the FMA or Indonesian martial arts. Just as it does close circle Ju-Jitsu and many Chinese styles.

Seig is a very quick learner and it did not take him long to have a light bulb come on for integration of technique.

Certain Kenpo books mentioned on this page would probably bring some enlightenment here.

I took up FMA/IMA with a group of VERY talented individuals as it gave me a VAST selection of tools for my personal tool box. The biomechanics and power generation is PHENOMENAL.


1st lesson learned : you THINK you know how to defend against a knife, or "knife fight" until you come up against a skilled practioner (B.T.D.T both real world, and Full Contact training with various weapons)


Please try to understand this humble laymans corroberation:

Why use a hand screwdriver, when you can use a power screwdriver to do the same thing quicker and with less work?

Stick Dummy humbly bows

:asian:

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Dear Eternalwhitebelt:

Sorry, but I ain't being misled. I never expected that kenpo would make me invulnerable, nor was it ever suggested in my training that it would.

More importantly, could you explain--with precise examples--precisely what it is that you find so much more comprehensive and developed in the Filipino knife strategies, tactics and techniques? Could you contrast this to the Form 7 and Form 8 material?

I don't mean to merely disagree--I'm certainly not claiming any expertise with weapons--but I should very much like to see details.

Let me repeat: all I'm asking for is precise detail. I've no idea whether you're right or not, and I've no intention of running out to study another art: I'd just like to read some precise explanations of just what you're talking about.

Thank you, in advance, for your time.

The word invunerable is no where in my post, so I don't know where that was coming from, but I will try to answer your post as best as I can. I have a feeling I am being set up by your questioning but I will give it my best shot anyway. Need I state that these are of course just my opinons, and I do think I am qualfied because I have trained in both arts. Do I think I know everything? Of course not, but here goes.

The weapons of AK consist of the basic techs. against a club, stick, knife, and Gun. Staff set. Form 6 introduces these techs. in a set pattern with some other empty handed techs., adapted for this purpose. Old form seven was orginally a double dagger form. It was later moved to eight and seven became a double stick form. The original double dagger form has been changed. Some do it the old way and some do not.
We can probably agree on this so far. (I hope.) Now the debate.

1. Form 6 doesn't take into account the reverse motion of an attackers hand. (Unfurling the lance as an example.) I find this strange because kenpo is big on reverses and opposites and things like that. Every filipino art I have studied takes this into account with the first lesson. With the exception of striking disarms, this form does not go into detail about disarms. Yes the isolations at the end teach two. How many people know this? What about the other variations, such as a strip and keep? What about from other angles of attack? What about counters? What about trap door techs.? This is too difficult to teach in a form( I say impossible). If the opponent does not drop the weapon, do most people know to not let go of the weapon bearing limb and perform the techs. one handed or no handed? (I.E. never let go untill th weapon is gone!) More importantly do they train this? I have sen a lot of high ranking black belts commit this error. Slice and Dice is the term we use.
2. Form 7. The premise is wrong. You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent. This teaches nothing about weapons combat. The second set of moves (Reversing Storm) violates a rule of weapons. Weapon always moves on the outside first. This is one of the reasons ( I think) that kenpo sticks are supposed to be shorter than most filipino sticks. If you have weapons training and you see someone perform this move it makes you cringe because it is one of the first things you are taught NOT to do in the filipino arts. The stick is easily trapped. If this motion were transfered to the blade you would cut your own arm. Hence the rule. This is a MAJOR difference between an unarmed system and a system based on weapons.
3.Form 8. Same as above. I have seen this form done many ways, against a mythical armed opponent and ofcourse against an unarmed opponent and so on. TO ME, what I stated above still apllies. To be quite honest with you, after studying the filipino arts I quit doing these forms. They seemed like a waist of time, and something that was just added on to the system.(my opinion). Whirling Lance will get you sliced if the opponent knows what he is doing. I still do 6. I just think about adding the disarms. When I work these techs. on a person I always do a strip or never let go of the limb. You have to do on or the other.
4.There is no laid out curriculum for weapon vs weapon training. I know I will get a lot of responses stating that Mr. Parker took it into consideration, just read insights and so on and so forth. However from my experience with many different seniors, some have tried to DEVELOPE a curriculum and some have not. I speak mainly of Mr. Pick and Mr. Mills. Huk also taches weapons. Can these men handle weapons in a fight? Of course they can. It is my experience in AK that they are the exception and not the rule. It is also my experience that a lot of the things they are teaching are in the Filipino arts, almost verbatim. Is this an unpopular view? Yes, but again it is just my observation. Some seniors will say that and some will say they created it. I don't really care either way, knowledge is knowledge.
5. The filipino arts that I have studied, not only teach you a systematic approach in dealing with certain weapons senarios,(unarmed vs knife, unarmed vs stick, knife vs knife,knife vs stick, stick vs stick, and so on, but they aso give you flow drills that help you practice them AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON PROVIDING RESISTANCE. Instead of just doing repititions of static techs. you get the feel of working at full speed with MANY variables thrown in. A persons skill level jumps by leaps and bounds.
6.Kenpo lacks these drills, even for empty-handed combat. That is why a lot of people are adding hubud-lubud, and chi-sao to their training. It only helps. This structure is not in kenpo. I don't believe the argument that it is in the freestyle part of the system. This is severely lacking when compared.
6. Many people always state, it is all in kenpo you just have to know what you are looking for. Granted this statement is usu. by a student who has only been in it a couple of years but still you get the point. That is hogwash. I learned more in 3 months of filipino weapons training than I ever learned in years of working kenpo weapons. The strucure is just not there when it comes to WEAPONS.
.7. And of course the most important reason is that I have never seen a kenpo person handle a weapon as good as a person who has been trained in the filipino arts. This goes for both the stick and the knife. Have I seen everyone? No. Again just my opinion. It took a lot for me to admit to myself that I did not know anything about weapons. It is hard to be arrognant when you are consistently being disarmed and your knife is returned to your throat. You either accept the truth and swallow your pride, or you can continue to live in a fantasy world and hope that a deadly situation never comes up. I chose to swallow my pride and started to learn other ways. In fact every person in kenpo that I have met in person and has had an open enough mind to work out, has left the session with their mind changed when it comes to weapons. I say this freely admitting that I am only an average student when it comes to the filipino arts. I have only studied them for five years and I consider AK my true art. If you were to take AK as the base and learn basic weapons rules and some flow drills like( spelling is wrong I am sure) hubud, siniwalli, palisut, sumbrada, basic lock flows, and learn how to incorporate all of that together, well I can't think of anything better.

This was long winded and I am not sure that I even really accomplished what you wanted. Ultimately, it does not matter, because as long as a person has faith in what they know that is half the battle right? Some say attitude is the most important thing but I really think it is knowledge. Knowledge is really the key. I just want to understand motion. Empty handed and with weapons.

Mr. Robertson I hope I did a decent job of answering your post. I also do want to repeat that I think AK is a wonderful Empty-Handed art.
Salute.

 

[Blindside]

Wow, nice post eternalwhitebelt!!!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Form 6 doesn't take into account the reverse motion of an attackers hand.

Can you explain for me what you mean by reverse motion of the hand and later by "Weapon always moves on the outside first."? I am not a kenpoist and don't know the language.

You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent.

??? Why would one practice that? Is it for would-be mob enforcers only?

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Reverse motion of the hand--- If you can slash in, you can slash out. I am positive you know what I am talking about it is just hard in this medium to be clear. If the defender goes for the weapon hand you reverse the motion and slash the limb or hand.

Weapon on the outside--In kenpo the the common motion is to do an inside parry followed by an outside parry. If you do this with a stick it will be trapped. If you do this with a blade you are going to cut yourself.

As I stated before I believe the premise is wrong. I guess you could justfy it by saying it is a mob attack.

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Blindside

Wow, nice post eternalwhitebelt!!!

I agree, seldom can I say that I have picked up so much knowledge from a post with such non-motivated honesty. Now it's time for me to go and explore your premises....

Thank you...jb:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Reverse motion of the hand--- If you can slash in, you can slash out. I am positive you know what I am talking about

Ah, yes--I just didn't recognize it by that name. Yes, even trained martial artists often don't expect this and end up hugging the blade to their arm or something.

Weapon on the outside--In kenpo the the common motion is to do an inside parry followed by an outside parry. If you do this with a stick it will be trapped. If you do this with a blade you are going to cut yourself.

I think I follow--essentially a crossing motion? The two parries are with two different hands?

As I stated before I believe the premise is wrong. I guess you could justfy it by saying it is a mob attack

OK, fair enough! Were these forms created by Mr. Parker from scratch or are they modifications of other, older forms? Again, I'm not a kenpoist so please forgive me for asking questions about what is I'm sure common knowledge.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by arnisador
You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent.
??? Why would one practice that? Is it for would-be mob enforcers only?

Arnisador, to answer your question.... we have established a basis for study which is........ Methods of attack and methods of Training for an attack.

The 4 methods of attack are: (you are always in the first position)

Unarmed vs. Unarmed
Unarmed vs. Armed
Armed vs. Unarmed
Armed vs. Armed

Much of our early training is within the 1st two methods. The Intermediate or Advanced is the next two methods. The better you know how to use a weapon the better prepared to evaluate your opponents skills (although do not depend on this the highly skilled are clever and disguise their skills). So the forms fall under this method for specific training purposes. The next category expands to the next level.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, thank you. It's nice to see a post from someone who actually can be detailed and explicit in discussing their experience, training, and theories.

I am sorry to continue to disagree, especially since I can't do so on the basis of knowing the Filipino arts, or either Form 7 or Form 8. However, I have to tell you that each of the concepts you've brought up I've heard, and witnessed, and on occasion felt, Larry Tatum demonstrate--particularly the forward and reverse motion.

On the ground of Long 6 I am a bit more knowledgeable, and again I must say that I was taught the form and its applications in a fashion that has included the disarms throughout the form, not merely at the end: again, you might look at Mr. Tatum's discussion of applications on the tape.

Again, however, thanks. It'll be something to think about, as I progress. I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but I appreciate both your thouroughness and your candour.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

I do not mean this in a disrespectful way at all. I too have taken lessons from Mr. Tatum. I have been around the kenpo block so to speak. I respect your position, but I do believe I have a pretty good grasp of 6. It is hard to convey thoughts on this board. What you talk of in Tatum's curriculum is not the same thing. I must humbly state that I too thought that at one point. I firmly believe that you have to experience both sides of the argument to really understand. However I will respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, it has the same words, offers the same concepts, advances the same theories. I say it's a duck.

Again, thank you.

 

[Blindside]

rmcrobertson posted: Well, it has the same words, offers the same concepts, advances the same theories. I say it's a duck.

Well, don't have the amount of experience of eternalwhitebelt in FMA, but I will say that the concepts are similar but not the same. It may be a goose or a rail or a murrelet, I don't hink I'd call it a duck.

Eternalwhitebelt:

You posted that in FMA that "the weapon always moves on the outside." In a standard two-stick siniwali doesn't the first move contradict this, where you are doing a right hand #1 strike that crosses your chambered left? The simple unarmed application of that motion is essentially an right inward parry, left outward parry, right chop. Is this a case of with two weapons you simple will cross at some point?

My FMA instructors have definately given me the same tips regarding single weapon usage that you did, but I never thought it was a "rule."

Thanks for the good discussion guys!

Lamont

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Unarmed vs. Unarmed
Unarmed vs. Armed
Armed vs. Unarmed
Armed vs. Armed

OK, I see the logic and symmetry here. Thanks!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Blindside

You posted that in FMA that "the weapon always moves on the outside." In a standard two-stick siniwali doesn't the first move contradict this, where you are doing a right hand #1 strike that crosses your chambered left? The simple unarmed application of that motion is essentially an right inward parry, left outward parry, right chop. Is this a case of with two weapons you simple will cross at some point?

Much of the sinawali exercises in Modern Arnis are intended to develop a certain facility with the sticks--coordination--and the ability to go from open to closed and closed to open positions. The chambering actions would be shortened considerably in application (this was recently discussed in the Modern Arnis forum) and the sticks would be kept more in front of you. There is a complete system known as Sinawali but the Modern Arnis sinawalis are drills for coordination and getting a feel for stick-on-stick; empty-hand applications are also made of them (sinawali boxing and some locking sets).

If you cross the weapons then--just like if you cross your arms in a fight--you run the risk that someone will tie up both your arms/weapons with only one of yours, which would be bad.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador

empty-hand applications are also made of them (sinawali boxing and some locking sets).

Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by Kirk



Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

Kinda but not quite the duck, so to speak.


As for the sinawali question I think it was answered perfectly above.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

Sorry, I don't speak Kenpo! I feel like the spouse at a physicians' conference!

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

So since I'm mainly a kenpo guy, I thought I would ask a few stupid questions about the FMA's (which I just discovered stands for Filipino Martial Arts..... look MOM I'm learning)

Anyway, on to the questions
1) So are Arnis and Kali two seperate entities? I'm assume they are, but like I said I know jack crap about the FMA.
2) Does Arnis only study the sticks?
3) Does Kali only study knives?
4) Do you think that either one of the two approaches their respective situations realistically?

EternalWhiteBelt:
You made some really good points about Kenpo's weapons curriculum.

The reason I started this thread was because I felt like we were being mis-informed through our curriculum. I won't discuss the Gun techniques mainly because I'm not sure anyone would argue to their effectiveness. What bothered me was the lack of realistic knife defenses. We live in the era of the clip knife. I see 'em everywhere, so if we live in a weapon prevalent environment, then why isn't anyone working to change or create better weapon defenses? I've had some weapons training with both the knife and clubs. In each instance, I was taught ways to open up targets based on the reaction of my opponent. The knife curriculum covers topics such as reverse motion or "back-cutting." Heck we run a drill where we try and bait the guy into blocking our attack just so we can get him to extend his arms (this opens up the wrists and forearms). So if in Kenpo we are taught to be wary and not over commit, why would we train as if our opponent would be stupid enough to overcommit?

I'm excited about direction that my association is headed, and in my opinion I think that they are going a long way in trying to fill in some of the gaps that Mr. Parker left behind. However, it's still hard to try and think of an opponent with a "straight forward" plan of attack, especially when a weapon is involved.

I've enjoyed the posts that I've seen so far. You guys tend to be a little more relaxed and not quite so fast to jump someones back for making an unpopular statement. I appreciate all the input.

Respectfully

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

1) So are Arnis and Kali two seperate entities? I'm assume they are, but like I said I know jack crap about the FMA.

There's been discussion of this on the FMA-General forum here. In short, arnis-escrima-kali mean the same thing; differences are regional or traditional. Other terms are also used. In fact, the term kali really isn't used much in the Philippines.

As a very general rule, with many exceptions, escrima tends to emphasize the stick, arnis tends to have a few weapons plus empty hand, and kali tends to emphasize bladed weapons and often a greater variety of weapons. I repeat, there are many exceptions!

2) Does Arnis only study the sticks?

There are different systems of arnis, but usually only systems labeled escrima are apt to be stick-only, and most of them are not in fact stick-only (though such systems exist, e.g. Balintawak eskrima). A typical selection of weapons is stick, short sword, knife, and staff, plus empty hand.

3) Does Kali only study knives?

No, though it tends to lean toward bladed weapons. Sayoc Kali is extremely knife-oriented but Kali(s) Illustrisimo for example has a lot of stick work.

4) Do you think that either one of the two approaches their respective situations realistically?

Much of the techniques were developed for dueling (stick-stick, knife-knife, sword-sword) and this must be taken into account. This has happened in Modern Arnis, for example, which has been modified for modern self-defense, but in general one must watch for this. The FMAs have very effective dueling techniques, but dueling is a limited way to view an encounter.

Check out the FMA-General and Modern Arnis fora as well!

 

[Seig]

What about Penjak?